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HOH best players by position - next position

View Poll Results: Which position comes next?
Forwards (TBD later if we break them up further) 25 42.37%
Goaltenders 34 57.63%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-06-2012, 12:07 AM
  #26
jigglysquishy
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If we're allowed to jump in to the voting without having done so before I'm definitely joining.

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Old
04-06-2012, 01:35 AM
  #27
begbeee
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Goalies. It has more value.
if not then forwards : wingers and centers.

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04-06-2012, 02:00 AM
  #28
BenchBrawl
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Man I just can't wait for the wingers , and let's not forget coaches!!!

I think there is one downside to this project though , I wonder how it will affect the future ATDs.

Of course nobody has the same list and building a team is not the same , but still , you know what the ''majority'' thinks about players...

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04-06-2012, 02:29 AM
  #29
charliolemieux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I honestly think goalies might be the tougher task - mainly because we, as a community know very little about goalies prior to 1950 - there are no easy stats to guide us like ther are with forwards. If we do goalies, I'm planning on starting a dedicated preliminary research thread to pre-1950 goalies that will run for some time before we start accepting lists.

But you're right - the actual list for goalies will be a lot shorter. If we split up forwards, I could see us doing both wings as separate projects this summer (back to back) since the wings will be the shortest projects, then take another long break before centers. That's if we split forwards up though.
Might I suggest this get's started now.

Even if Goal is the last position debated, (Hasek #1 baby ) adjusting for the pre 1950 period could be the most complicated dynamic to figure out.

Just for S&G's Just how valuable is The Most Unbeatable Record in Sports?

I'm putting Hall ahead of Wilt and DiMaggio, which is another debate.

But... what's it worth?

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04-06-2012, 06:34 AM
  #30
plusandminus
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I would like to know more about the goalies who were great without necessarily being a top-2 goalie in the league. If a goalie project would expand my knowledge there, it would be appreciated. For example, it would be great to see attempts at ranking the best goalies for each season, similar to seasonal ranking (for example based on votings) that was provided in the defencemen project, to see if there were guys who constantly appeared to be top-4 or so goalies in the NHL. The overall top 20-40 (or however many you rank) might be even more interesting than the overall top-10.

Goalies also are very influencial. It is being said that "the goalie is half the team", and "you cannot win the Stanley Cup without a great/good goalie". 4 of the last 10 Conn Smythe winners have been goalies.

Let's compare a goalie with save percentage of .920 with one with .880. What that actually tells us is that the latter goalie allows 3 goals for every 2 goals the former allows. That might equal 1.5 goal more per game.
It might give the "great goalie" team a goal difference of 230-210 while the "worse goalie" team gets say 230-315. The first team likely finish above average, making the playoffs, while the second probably finish at the bottom of the league.
On a single skater level, the same skater could be say 70-60=+10 or 70-90=-20 depending on having a prime Roy or having a considerably "worse" goalie.
(It's just a thought example, and in reality more things should be considered, and save percentage is in itself biased, etc. etc.)

Goalies have changed the outcome for many teams, and contributed a lot to make individual skaters get a reputation as "winners" or "non-winners".
* Would Bourque have gotten his Stanley Cup without Roy? Would he in fact have won several time if having a Roy caliber goalie on his team during the majority of his career?
* Would Boston have won last year without Tim Thomas? Would instead the Sedins, Luongo, Kesler et al have won it?
* How impressive would Bobby Clarke's prime stats defensively (GA) look without Bernie Parent? What about Philadephia overall during that time?
* What would the Summit Series of 1972 (and other international tournaments) have been without Tretiak?
* Would Czech Republic have won gold in the 1998 Olympics without Hasek?
and so on...

Having a greater understanding of goaltending, and its influence on team level success (and individual +/-) might be helpful when attempting to do a best forwards (or redo a best defencemen) list.

(A question that arises is how to treat Original 6 goalies. The 4th best goalie there might be considered "below average", while the 10th best goalie of today might be considered "above average". Being the 6th best goalie in the NHL today is considered being a top class goalie, while a goalie being the 6th best in the O6 era might not have been looked upon that way.)

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04-06-2012, 06:38 AM
  #31
plusandminus
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It was not an option now, but eventually I would find a "best NHL teams" project interesting. Or team with best defencemen (I suppose the 1970s Montreal might rank highly), or team with best forwards, or team with best skaters.

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04-06-2012, 08:07 AM
  #32
tony d
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I voted for a top goalies list.

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04-06-2012, 09:32 AM
  #33
vecens24
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Just out of curiosity, how long would a top goalies list be? Top 30-40? Making our initial list like the top 50?

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04-06-2012, 10:34 AM
  #34
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Just out of curiosity, how long would a top goalies list be? Top 30-40? Making our initial list like the top 50?
We talked about 30 or 40 goalies. It doesn't make sense to be as long as defensemen, I would think.

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04-07-2012, 03:24 AM
  #35
seventieslord
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I would love to make it 60. why not?

anyway, I say goalies. when we do forwards, split into two: centers and wingers.

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04-07-2012, 07:42 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I would love to make it 60. why not?

anyway, I say goalies. when we do forwards, split into two: centers and wingers.
The longer the list the fewer people will participate. It creates a higher barrier to entry in making the initial list and it's more likely that participants will lose interest in later rounds.

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Old
04-07-2012, 09:04 AM
  #37
quoipourquoi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I would love to make it 60. why not?
I'd like to see a tighter list of just 30. 30 LWs, 30 Cs, 30 RWs, 60 Ds, and 30 Gs. Then you guys can do a 30 team fantasy draft and see which elite player gets Kesseled.

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04-07-2012, 12:59 PM
  #38
Hawkey Town 18
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I picked forwards, but it really doesn't matter to me. What does matter is that we rank all 3 forward positions separately...I would easily trade my vote in this poll for a second vote in the poll that makes that decision

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04-07-2012, 02:35 PM
  #39
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I think there is one downside to this project though , I wonder how it will affect the future ATDs.

Of course nobody has the same list and building a team is not the same , but still , you know what the ''majority'' thinks about players...
I think it's the other way around as there tended to be a bit of group think on the d project, perhaps it would be better to get a broader view on things.

Or at least on the submission of lists more interaction for rejected lists would sure help things along as well.

Also pre WW2 Dmen compared to post WW2 was hard, it's going to be even more so for goalies but at least it might lead to more discussion and less consensus going in.

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04-07-2012, 05:02 PM
  #40
MXD
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Goalies -- Numbers

I think best course of action would be....

Round 1 : Individual lists. Each user give a 40 name list.
Round 2 : 3 at a time, 6 available (with up to 10 available in the later stages).

If we're doing a top-30, makes no sense to go for only 6 rounds.

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04-07-2012, 05:30 PM
  #41
Hawkey Town 18
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Looks like it's going to be goalies...I'd rather make it a little bigger and do the top 35-40 than 25-30.

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04-07-2012, 05:44 PM
  #42
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Looks like it's going to be goalies...I'd rather make it a little bigger and do the top 35-40 than 25-30.
All voters
Forwards 17
Goalies 26

Participants from the last project (voters and screeners)
Forwards 8
Goalies 7

It's not settled yet; this poll will remain open.

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04-07-2012, 05:45 PM
  #43
MXD
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Looks like it's going to be goalies...I'd rather make it a little bigger and do the top 35-40 than 25-30.
40 is a great number to come up with 10 rounds.

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04-07-2012, 05:47 PM
  #44
TheDevilMadeMe
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40 is a great number to come up with 10 rounds.
Adding 4 per round for 10 rounds? With the difficulty in telling goalies apart, I would definitely be into adding only 3-4 goalies per round, rather than 5 like with other positions.

Though it's far from decided which position we do next.

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04-07-2012, 06:01 PM
  #45
MXD
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Adding 4 per round for 10 rounds? With the difficulty in telling goalies apart, I would definitely be into adding only 3-4 goalies per round, rather than 5 like with other positions.

Though it's far from decided which position we do next.
Humm...

So...

12 rounds, like the D's?

That would mean something like

3 for the first 10 rounds.
5 for the last 2 rounds?

Or simply 30 with
10 rounds x 3 goalies?

(again, I assumed we were looking at G's -- just wondering how to come up with a list that would make sense, number-wise (a Top-48, or even a Top-36 indeed feels a bit random))

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04-11-2012, 01:34 PM
  #46
kmad
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Really looking forward to this. Any progress? Expected ETA to get started?

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04-11-2012, 06:15 PM
  #47
TasteofFlames
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I voted forwards. I'd like to be involved in this project, and feel that, as a novice, forwards would be much easier for me to research and provide an informed list. Something to cut my teeth on, if you will.

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04-11-2012, 06:29 PM
  #48
TheDevilMadeMe
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29-21 goalies among all voters

8-7 forwards among previous participants.

I'd like to get more votes, especially from previous participants

And yes, if the final vote is close, what previous participants want will be weighed more heavily


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 04-11-2012 at 06:36 PM.
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Old
04-12-2012, 10:19 AM
  #49
Ivan13
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I would love to participate in the next poll(s), but sadly my pre 60s NHL knowledge is rather limited outside of the Montreal Canadiens.

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04-12-2012, 10:42 AM
  #50
Hawkey Town 18
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I would love to participate in the next poll(s), but sadly my pre 60s NHL knowledge is rather limited outside of the Montreal Canadiens.
Plenty of time to start researching now...the previous Top 100 and Top 70 lists as well as the ATD board are good places to start

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