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Sens taking on Horcoff's contract

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Old
04-07-2012, 11:54 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
No he is not, he is a huge part of the problem not the solution. He's freaking awful.

He leads a pk that has been from mid league this year to totally awful the two years before. He scores the 'occasional goal' while getting 1st line pp time and leading the forwards in ice time. He has been below 50% on the dot the last 3 years. He has 1 game winning goal in the lazst two years despite mountains of ice time.

People look at his 35-40 point years and muse, not that bad for a 3rd liner. One problem, other than about the last 20 games this year he has NEVER been a 3rd liner.

If he wasn't a buddy and a fav of the owner he should be given the redden treatment.
NMC man. He can't.

If you take management's opinion of Horcoff, and Beerfish's opinion of Horcoff, and somehow average them out, that's his actual value to the team.

To the op, if you're interested in taking a dump to get some extra pieces, I would suggest your GM talk to Montreal about Scott Gomez. Horcoff's contract is bad, but he is significantly better than Gomez and the team isn't really desperate to move him.

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04-07-2012, 12:20 PM
  #27
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To Oil fans complaining about the proposal, I said it was the framework for a deal, not a final deal. Pieces can be added on either side. Try reading it before *****ing all over it.

Re: Gomez, no thanks. As bad as Horcoff's contract and play are, Gomez is the definition of a bad contract. Cap hit of what, 7.4 mill for 2 more years for a guy who has ONE goal in over a year, and isn't even that great defensively, in the circle, etc? Nobody will touch him with a 10 mile long pole, they are stuck with him. I will give you that MTL needs to dump salary more than EDM though. But the OP isnt as bad as Oil fans make it out, especially with some tweaking. Our pick is likely 15/16, yours will be (assuming you don't win the lottery AGAIN) somewhere from 2 to 4. Then again, if we want a pick that high, maybe we should just tank to the extreme for 3 years in a row like the Oilers.

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04-07-2012, 12:22 PM
  #28
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we need to make room for prospects right now, not more vets.

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04-07-2012, 12:39 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
To Oil fans complaining about the proposal, I said it was the framework for a deal, not a final deal. Pieces can be added on either side. Try reading it before *****ing all over it.

Re: Gomez, no thanks. As bad as Horcoff's contract and play are, Gomez is the definition of a bad contract. Cap hit of what, 7.4 mill for 2 more years for a guy who has ONE goal in over a year, and isn't even that great defensively, in the circle, etc? Nobody will touch him with a 10 mile long pole, they are stuck with him. I will give you that MTL needs to dump salary more than EDM though. But the OP isnt as bad as Oil fans make it out, especially with some tweaking. Our pick is likely 15/16, yours will be (assuming you don't win the lottery AGAIN) somewhere from 2 to 4. Then again, if we want a pick that high, maybe we should just tank to the extreme for 3 years in a row like the Oilers.
The deal doesn't take into consideration needs of the Edmonton. They don't need Bishop, don't really want to move Horcoff, and Horcoff's contract really isn't a restriction on the team going forward.

By definition, this is a really poor proposal.

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04-07-2012, 12:56 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Yeah, no value there for the Sens (unless the pick is your 2012 1st LOL). I really hope there is no amnesty clause in the CBA. I absolutely detest giving GMs a 'get out of jail free' card for a stupid signing. Their team should have to suffer the consequences for it (I'd even like to see it enforced where even if a player retires before the end of their contract, their cap hit remains until the term of the contract expires).

Getting rid of Horcoff would not only help the Oilers resign the kids, but also help them shore up their D and goaltending, as well as give them room to pursue a high profile free agent, maybe 2.
Come on, we didn't sign Gomez and the idiot who traded for him was fired, finally. He has 49 points in a 118 games and is a horrid -24. Have we not suffered enough?

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04-07-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
To Oil fans complaining about the proposal, I said it was the framework for a deal, not a final deal. Pieces can be added on either side. Try reading it before *****ing all over it.

Re: Gomez, no thanks. As bad as Horcoff's contract and play are, Gomez is the definition of a bad contract. Cap hit of what, 7.4 mill for 2 more years for a guy who has ONE goal in over a year, and isn't even that great defensively, in the circle, etc? Nobody will touch him with a 10 mile long pole, they are stuck with him. I will give you that MTL needs to dump salary more than EDM though. But the OP isnt as bad as Oil fans make it out, especially with some tweaking. Our pick is likely 15/16, yours will be (assuming you don't win the lottery AGAIN) somewhere from 2 to 4. Then again, if we want a pick that high, maybe we should just tank to the extreme for 3 years in a row like the Oilers.
No way EDM trades 2nd overall pick to get rid of Horcoff... The value of Horc + 2nd overall is closer to Rick friggin Nash than Ben friggin Bishop + late pick.

Horcoff + a non core player\pick\prospect for lesser player\pick\prospect would work.

Omark, Hamilton, Gagner, Jones, Eager and possibly Hemsky etc are non core players...

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04-07-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
To Oil fans complaining about the proposal, I said it was the framework for a deal, not a final deal. Pieces can be added on either side. Try reading it before *****ing all over it.

Re: Gomez, no thanks. As bad as Horcoff's contract and play are, Gomez is the definition of a bad contract. Cap hit of what, 7.4 mill for 2 more years for a guy who has ONE goal in over a year, and isn't even that great defensively, in the circle, etc? Nobody will touch him with a 10 mile long pole, they are stuck with him. I will give you that MTL needs to dump salary more than EDM though. But the OP isnt as bad as Oil fans make it out, especially with some tweaking. Our pick is likely 15/16, yours will be (assuming you don't win the lottery AGAIN) somewhere from 2 to 4. Then again, if we want a pick that high, maybe we should just tank to the extreme for 3 years in a row like the Oilers.
There is no possible deal involving both Edmontons first and Horcoff. No GM in their right mind would trade down from a lottery position to get rid of a bad contract, never mind one on a team that will hardly be above the cap floor. The OP is exactly as bad as Oiler fans are making it out to be. They have no reason to get rid of Horcoff. They are nowhere near the cap, he is their captain and he fits the #3C position well. While I'm sure they'd get rid of him if given the opportunity, they certainly wouldn't add anything to make it happen.

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04-07-2012, 01:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
No way EDM trades 2nd overall pick to get rid of Horcoff... The value of Horc + 2nd overall is closer to Rick friggin Nash than Ben friggin Bishop + late pick.

Horcoff + a non core player\pick\prospect for lesser player\pick\prospect would work.

Omark, Hamilton, Gagner, Jones, Eager and possibly Hemsky etc are non core players...
Top two picks since 2000:
DiPietro, Heatley, Kovalchuk, Spezza, Nash, Lehtonen, Fleury, Staal, Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, Ryan, Johnson, Staal, Kane, van Riemsdyk, Stamkos, Doughty, Tavares, Hedman, Hall, Seguin, Hopkins, Landeskog

Take a look at that list - there are good players later in the draft, but the game breaking players tend to be in the top three picks of any draft.

Given how difficult it is to get one of these picks - Edmonton's not moving it for anything less than a massive overpay.

Bishop and a mid round pick? Not likely.

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04-07-2012, 01:21 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victor View Post
The deal doesn't take into consideration needs of the Edmonton. They don't need Bishop, don't really want to move Horcoff, and Horcoff's contract really isn't a restriction on the team going forward.

By definition, this is a really poor proposal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Come on, we didn't sign Gomez and the idiot who traded for him was fired, finally. He has 49 points in a 118 games and is a horrid -24. Have we not suffered enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
No way EDM trades 2nd overall pick to get rid of Horcoff... The value of Horc + 2nd overall is closer to Rick friggin Nash than Ben friggin Bishop + late pick.

Horcoff + a non core player\pick\prospect for lesser player\pick\prospect would work.

Omark, Hamilton, Gagner, Jones, Eager and possibly Hemsky etc are non core players...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaen View Post
There is no possible deal involving both Edmontons first and Horcoff. No GM in their right mind would trade down from a lottery position to get rid of a bad contract, never mind one on a team that will hardly be above the cap floor. The OP is exactly as bad as Oiler fans are making it out to be. They have no reason to get rid of Horcoff. They are nowhere near the cap, he is their captain and he fits the #3C position well. While I'm sure they'd get rid of him if given the opportunity, they certainly wouldn't add anything to make it happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor View Post
Top two picks since 2000:
DiPietro, Heatley, Kovalchuk, Spezza, Nash, Lehtonen, Fleury, Staal, Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, Ryan, Johnson, Staal, Kane, van Riemsdyk, Stamkos, Doughty, Tavares, Hedman, Hall, Seguin, Hopkins, Landeskog

Take a look at that list - there are good players later in the draft, but the game breaking players tend to be in the top three picks of any draft.

Given how difficult it is to get one of these picks - Edmonton's not moving it for anything less than a massive overpay.

Bishop and a mid round pick? Not likely.
For the last time, I said more can be added.

And its not Bishop + mid round pick for your pick, its Bishop (who has played very well, and if you think Dubnyk is your long-term #1, its just not the case), a mid FIRST round pick ('mid round pick' means a 4th-6th round pick), the ridding of Horcoff's horrid contract, and possibly more for the pick.

And you don't know that your pick is 2nd. It could be 3rd (you could pass Montreal), and possibly 4th overall if a team within 4 spots of you wins the lottery (this happened to the Sens last year, dropping them from 5th to 6th).

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04-07-2012, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
For the last time, I said more can be added.

And its not Bishop + mid round pick for your pick, its Bishop (who has played very well, and if you think Dubnyk is your long-term #1, its just not the case), a mid FIRST round pick ('mid round pick' means a 4th-6th round pick), the ridding of Horcoff's horrid contract, and possibly more for the pick.

And you don't know that your pick is 2nd. It could be 3rd (you could pass Montreal), and possibly 4th overall if a team within 4 spots of you wins the lottery (this happened to the Sens last year, dropping them from 5th to 6th).
You making the assumption here that:
a) The Oilers will beat the Canucks tonight in Vancouver,
b) The Habs will beat the Leafs, and
c) a team within 4 spots above the Oil in the standings wins the draft lottery (odds ~25%)

That seems pretty unlikely.

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04-07-2012, 01:38 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
For the last time, I said more can be added.

And its not Bishop + mid round pick for your pick, its Bishop (who has played very well, and if you think Dubnyk is your long-term #1, its just not the case), a mid FIRST round pick ('mid round pick' means a 4th-6th round pick), the ridding of Horcoff's horrid contract, and possibly more for the pick.

And you don't know that your pick is 2nd. It could be 3rd (you could pass Montreal), and possibly 4th overall if a team within 4 spots of you wins the lottery (this happened to the Sens last year, dropping them from 5th to 6th).
Think of it like this. Imagine last year if an Edmonton fan had suggested you trade the 6th overall pick to dump Kuba, who at the time had Sens fans ready to march on his house with torches and pitchforks, in exchange for LA's first and Deslauriers. You would lose it on them. And while Kuba's contract wasn't as bad as Horcoffs and Deslauriers isn't as good as Bishop, the Oilers pick this year is worth more then yours last year, so I think its a pretty good comparable, and it isn't even close to fair value.

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04-07-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
You making the assumption here that:
a) The Oilers will beat the Canucks tonight in Vancouver,
b) The Habs will beat the Leafs, and
c) a team within 4 spots above the Oil in the standings wins the draft lottery (odds ~25%)

That seems pretty unlikely.
You mean Leafs beat the Habs in regulation.

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04-07-2012, 02:24 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
To Oil fans complaining about the proposal, I said it was the framework for a deal, not a final deal. Pieces can be added on either side. Try reading it before *****ing all over it.

Re: Gomez, no thanks. As bad as Horcoff's contract and play are, Gomez is the definition of a bad contract. Cap hit of what, 7.4 mill for 2 more years for a guy who has ONE goal in over a year, and isn't even that great defensively, in the circle, etc? Nobody will touch him with a 10 mile long pole, they are stuck with him. I will give you that MTL needs to dump salary more than EDM though. But the OP isnt as bad as Oil fans make it out, especially with some tweaking. Our pick is likely 15/16, yours will be (assuming you don't win the lottery AGAIN) somewhere from 2 to 4. Then again, if we want a pick that high, maybe we should just tank to the extreme for 3 years in a row like the Oilers.
I love it. You say that the trade isnt as bad as people make it out to be (its worse). And so because you're feelings got hurt you throw that little dig in at the end.


Awesome post

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04-07-2012, 02:26 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
For the last time, I said more can be added.

And its not Bishop + mid round pick for your pick, its Bishop (who has played very well, and if you think Dubnyk is your long-term #1, its just not the case), a mid FIRST round pick ('mid round pick' means a 4th-6th round pick), the ridding of Horcoff's horrid contract, and possibly more for the pick.

And you don't know that your pick is 2nd. It could be 3rd (you could pass Montreal), and possibly 4th overall if a team within 4 spots of you wins the lottery (this happened to the Sens last year, dropping them from 5th to 6th).
It doesn't matter if more can be added unless its a package deal for either Spezza or Karlsson (which of course is ridiculous). The Oilers aren`t trading their 2nd overall pick as part of a contract dump trade, and will only trade it for a very good center (like Grigorenko will be) or a very good defenseman (like Murray will be). So there is no deal to be had here, regardless of what marginal pieces you want to offer up.

What we are saying, is that Horcoff doesn't have negative value to the Oilers. He's only on the books for 3 more years now, is a decent 3rd line center and we aren't in cap trouble.

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04-07-2012, 02:27 PM
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Why is getting rid of Horcoff's contract keep getting pimped as a plus when numerous people have said we are closer to the cap floor then the cieling and it expires in a few years anyways.

Sure Id get rid of Horcoff but not at the price of Grigs or Murray

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04-07-2012, 04:09 PM
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You mean Leafs beat the Habs in regulation.
yup, my bad. I stand corrected.

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04-07-2012, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
For the last time, I said more can be added.

And its not Bishop + mid round pick for your pick, its Bishop (who has played very well, and if you think Dubnyk is your long-term #1, its just not the case), a mid FIRST round pick ('mid round pick' means a 4th-6th round pick), the ridding of Horcoff's horrid contract, and possibly more for the pick.
While we know that "you could add" to the deal - you might want to check out the teams before making comments like the above.

Dubnyk has a 0.914 save percentage this season (25th in the NHL,) and over the 100 games in his career, he has a 0.910 save percentage over 5730 minutes. Bishop? 23 total games into his career, 0.902 save percentage, and a 2.67GAA over 1145 minutes. Oh, yeah, one other thing. They're both born in 1986.

If you can tell that Dubnyk's not going to be a starter - what does that make a goalie that's the same age, who's played in 1/5th the games, and has worse statistics?

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04-07-2012, 05:00 PM
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It's a high contract, one that is very difficult to move in a pure hockey trade.

Yet the Oilers have the cap space to absorb it. Only once the kids are off ELC and have the numbers to start demanding big paydays does that salary become a problem. It's hardly part of the plan, but the team's struggles may temper the raises some of those early picks are going to get -- keep in mind that their earnings aren't the rookie max base salary, but the base salary plus bonuses. The big-time guys aren't coming in at $875K, but in the ballpark of $3.9M. How much higher than ~$4M are their salaries going to be, when all is said and done?

I'm not sure the Oilers are at the point where they desperately need that cap space and will give up tremendous assets to be rid of it. They'll be glad when it expires, mind you, but I think he plays out that contract in Edmonton.

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04-07-2012, 05:11 PM
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not as much as you would think. Something like:

Horcoff, EDM 2nd round pick
for
Kuba, OTT 3rd round pick

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04-07-2012, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
For the last time, I said more can be added.

And its not Bishop + mid round pick for your pick, its Bishop (who has played very well, and if you think Dubnyk is your long-term #1, its just not the case), a mid FIRST round pick ('mid round pick' means a 4th-6th round pick), the ridding of Horcoff's horrid contract, and possibly more for the pick.

And you don't know that your pick is 2nd. It could be 3rd (you could pass Montreal), and possibly 4th overall if a team within 4 spots of you wins the lottery (this happened to the Sens last year, dropping them from 5th to 6th).

Seriously give up. Its friggin terrible and nowhere near a possible trade. Stop making threads.

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04-08-2012, 01:26 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
You make a lot of sense here, and obviously OTT only does this if it wouldn't interfere with resigning the Karlssons, Cowens, Zibanejads, Turrises, etc of the world. It may hamstring us a bit in terms of going after high profile UFAs, but really, we normally aren't a prime destination for them anyway. If we could structure a trade framework around :

To EDM :

OTT 1st 2012
Bishop

To OTT :

Horcoff
EDM 1st 2012

Oilers move down 15 spots in the first round, but get a good young (and HUGE!) goalie in Bishop that we paid a 2nd rounder for, and get rid of Horc's contract. This deal could be tweaked as necessary.

What do people think of this?
And people love to roast Oiler fans for horrifically brutal trades, like they're the only ones...

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04-08-2012, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
For the last time, I said more can be added.

And its not Bishop + mid round pick for your pick, its Bishop (who has played very well, and if you think Dubnyk is your long-term #1, its just not the case), a mid FIRST round pick ('mid round pick' means a 4th-6th round pick), the ridding of Horcoff's horrid contract, and possibly more for the pick.

And you don't know that your pick is 2nd. It could be 3rd (you could pass Montreal), and possibly 4th overall if a team within 4 spots of you wins the lottery (this happened to the Sens last year, dropping them from 5th to 6th).
You seem to be ignoring what everyone is telling you....

The Oilers have no reason to give up anything of value to shed Horcoff's contract!!!

As such the premise of your post is completely off base.

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04-08-2012, 07:39 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Jamin View Post

Sure Id get rid of Horcoff but not at the price of Grigs or Murray
Would the Oilers trade him to the Sens (Or anybody else, for that matter) for a 6th or 7th round draft pick just to get the contract off their books?

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04-08-2012, 08:03 AM
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Would the Oilers trade him to the Sens (Or anybody else, for that matter) for a 6th or 7th round draft pick just to get the contract off their books?
I doubt they would.

First, he has a NMC so that is an issue. Secondly, the Oilers manangement seems to really like Horcoff.

They don't need to the cap space, and likely will not going forward. But if they do it would not be until 2014-2015 at the earliest when his salary will be $3M and his NMC/NTC will be gone. This would also be the last year of his deal.

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04-08-2012, 08:28 AM
  #50
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I doubt they would.

First, he has a NMC so that is an issue. Secondly, the Oilers manangement seems to really like Horcoff.

They don't need to the cap space, and likely will not going forward. But if they do it would not be until 2014-2015 at the earliest when his salary will be $3M and his NMC/NTC will be gone. This would also be the last year of his deal.
That makes sense.

Thanks!

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