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Foster Hewitt Divisional Quarterfinals: Montréal vs. West Island

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Old
04-08-2012, 11:01 AM
  #1
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Foster Hewitt Divisional Quarterfinals: Montréal vs. West Island

LES CANADIENS DE MONTRÉAL



GM: BenchBrawl
Captain: Red Kelly
Assistant: Frank Nighbor
Assistant: Cy Denneny

HEAD COACH

Pat Burns


ROSTER

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Helmut Balderis
Patrik Elias - Adam Oates - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Craig Ramsay - Phil Goyette - Claude Provost
Patrick Marleau - Vincent Lecavalier - Tomas Sandstrom

Harry Howell - Leonard ''Red'' Kelly
Barry Beck - Dan Boyle
Jamie Macoun - Ron Stackhouse

Harry Lumley
Andy Moog

spares: Craig Conroy , Andre Dupont , Jason Spezza , Curt Fraser


Vs.

West Island Lions



GM: Dwight
Coach: Joel Quenneville
Captain: Toe Blake
Alternate Captains: Ed Westfall, Doug Wilson

Brian Propp - Elmer Lach - Vaclav Nedomansky
Toe Blake - Phil Watson - Dave Taylor
J.P. Parise - Bob Bourne - Ed Westfall
Ab McDonald - Steven Stamkos - Bobby Schmautz
Glen Skov - Mickey Redmond

Doug Wilson - Tim Horton
Jean-Guy Talbot - Dave Burrows
Duncan Keith - Phil Russell
Andrei Markov - Roman Hamrlik

Jacques Plante
Olaf Kolzig

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04-08-2012, 12:27 PM
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BenchBrawl
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Good luck to you Dwight!

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04-09-2012, 04:25 PM
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BenchBrawl
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Montréal Special Units:

Powerplay 1:

Cy Denneny - Adam Oates - Helmut Balderis(Hextall Sr. if a goal is really needed immediately)
Dan Boyle - Red Kelly

Powerplay 2:

Patrik Elias* - Frank Nighbor - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Phil Goyette - Barry Beck

*If Lecavalier or Marleau is having a strong game , can take Elias' spot.

Penalty Kill 1:

Frank Nighbor - Craig Ramsay
Harry Howell - Red Kelly

Penalty Kill 2:

Phil Goyette - Claude Provost
Barry Beck - Jamie Macoun

Hero Shutdown line end of game:

Craig Ramsay - Frank Nighbor - Claude Provost
Harry Howell - Red Kelly

Hero offensive line end of game down by a goal:

Cy Denneny - Adam Oates - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Dan Boyle - Red Kelly - Frank Nighbor

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04-10-2012, 10:02 AM
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1st lines: Denneny - Nighbor - Balderis vs Propp - Lach - Nedomansky

I like the mix of your first line , but my line is simply better at both offense and defense.Elmer Lach was a good defensive player but Frank Nighbor was vastly superior in that regard , Denneny is the best goal scorer and Balderis can also provide quite a bit of offense as well.Nedomansky was a good goal scorer but not at the level of Denneny.Propp , as awesome as he was , is a very poor offensive player at this level.

Overall , your line relies too much on Elmer Lach and I think my line can outproduce yours while being superior defensively.

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04-10-2012, 10:18 AM
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2nd line: Elias - Oates - Hextall Sr. vs Blake - Watson - Taylor

I like Toe Blake , but I'm not sure how much I like Watson and Taylor.I admit my knowledge on Watson is limited and you didn't provide a bio so I'll assume he was a decent playmaker but nothing spectacular either.Blake's record is also boosted by the war years , even though he managed to have some great years before it so it's not the end of the world in that regard.I think my Oates-Hextall Sr. combo is just too explosive and talented not to consider my line superior.Elias is basically Taylor offensively with a defensive game on top of it.The chemistry between the Oates-Hextall Sr combo is a match made for heaven and while your line certainly has potential , I think the line relies too much on Toe Blake , just like your first line relied too much on Elmer Lach.

Overall , my line has the advantage.

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04-10-2012, 10:22 AM
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3rd line: Ramsay - Goyette - Provost vs Parise - Bourne - Westfall

I don't think much argument is needed here , my 3rd line is clearly ahead both offensively and defensively.

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04-10-2012, 10:27 AM
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1st Pairing: Howell - Kelly vs Horton - Wilson

I like your 1st pairing , but I still think mine is better.Having Red Kelly helps a lot.My offensive defenseman is also top notch on defense , with Howell backing him if Kelly chooses to support the offensive.The same is true about Horton and Wilson , but whatever Wilson has on Howell (if he has any) , it's not enough to compensate for the difference between Kelly and Horton.

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04-10-2012, 10:33 AM
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2nd pairing: Boyle - Beck vs Talbot - Burrows

I am not sure what to think of that one , but by the looks of their records , it seems this pairing is fairly close overall.

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04-10-2012, 10:34 AM
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Goalies: Lumley vs Plante

Easy advantage for West Island with Plante.

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04-10-2012, 10:35 AM
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04-10-2012, 10:36 AM
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Coaches: Burns vs Quenneville

Easy advantage to Montréal with Burns.

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04-10-2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
ahah you quoted it before I edited , I figured it wasn't the place for a joke but what the hell

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04-10-2012, 10:40 AM
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In conclusion , I like some parts of Dwight's team , but I think in all fairness my team is better and should manage to win this series.

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04-10-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
2nd pairing: Boyle - Beck vs Talbot - Burrows

I am not sure what to think of that one , but by the looks of their records , it seems this pairing is fairly close overall.
Burrows is almost certainly underrated by his AST voting finishes (which aren't bad anyway...something like 7th, 8th, 8th, I believe) and if you want to be generous I guess he could be as good as Beck, but you are really overrating Talbot if you think he was on Boyle's level.

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04-10-2012, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Burrows is almost certainly underrated by his AST voting finishes (which aren't bad anyway...something like 7th, 8th, 8th, I believe) and if you want to be generous I guess he could be as good as Beck, but you are really overrating Talbot if you think he was on Boyle's level.
Now that I took another look at it , it's very possible Talbot is overrated by a lot of people.Talbot is pretty much a one year wonder offensively while Boyle was a fairly consistant defenseman for many years.I don't buy Talbot as an offensive defenseman , leaving this pairing with little offense , which will punish one of West Island's Top 2 line.

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04-10-2012, 01:12 PM
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Best of luck to you too, BB. I'm smack dab in the middle of exams right now, but I'll try my best to get some words in here for the sake of my team. Obviously, I've got an uphill battle, and I guess I didn't do a good enough job in communicating the vision I had for this squad. Let's see if I can do that here.

I also missed a good deal of the assassination discussion so I hope that some of the points I bring up here are not already answered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
1st lines: Denneny - Nighbor - Balderis vs Propp - Lach - Nedomansky

I like the mix of your first line , but my line is simply better at both offense and defense.Elmer Lach was a good defensive player but Frank Nighbor was vastly superior in that regard , Denneny is the best goal scorer and Balderis can also provide quite a bit of offense as well.Nedomansky was a good goal scorer but not at the level of Denneny.Propp , as awesome as he was , is a very poor offensive player at this level.

Overall , your line relies too much on Elmer Lach and I think my line can outproduce yours while being superior defensively.
Well, your first line is one of my favourites. It's tough to discredit the Denneny-Nighbor combo. Cy was an excellent goalscorer, while Nighbor was a great passer and an excellent defensive player. I missed all the Balderis brouhaha in the assassination thread, but again, he's a decent enough complement to the other two here to form a solid line. I suppose Denneny is also the physical presence on this line.

I might be crazy for saying this, but the Denneny-Nedomansky comparison can be interpreted differently. The chasm between them is not so big if you put more stock into Ned's international and Czech league resume. Heck, even his WHA record could point to a strong goalscoring prowess. In the WHA, though, he took on more of a power forward role and often had the Esposito-like task of standing in front of the net and getting the garbage goals. With his size, very few people could move him. If we discredit Nedomansky's international and foreign resume, then what does that say about Balderis?

Lach, while not quite at Nighbor's level, certainly has a lot of similarities with Franky. Both were exceptional two-way players.I agree that Nighbor certainly has a defensive edge, but how much better was he than Lach offensively? Nighbor never topped the league in scoring, while Lach did it twice. Lach also has 7 top 5 assist finishes compared to Nighbor's 5. I also give Lach a physical edge over Nighbor. Nighbor's defensive prowess seemed to come from strong positional play and a trusty poke check, while Lach seemed to actually be more of a grinder.

I agree that Propp may be the worst player offensively of the two lines, but I have him up here more for his digging. I suppose he fits the "first line glue guy" mold. The vision I had for this line was for Propp to be the corner guy, Lach to be the distributor, and Ned to park himself in front of the net and collect the garbage goals.

Yes, your line may be better offensively, but I wouldn't say "simply better". I'd almost go as far as to say "marginally better". I'm actually giving my line the edge defensively, because outside of Nighbor, nobody else on your line, AFAIK, was noted for their defensive play, while I have 2 players who were known as strong two-way players.

Finally, my line definitely has a physical edge - all 3 of my players were not afraid to use their bodies to create space for themselves and others, while I've read nothing on Balderis or Nighbor being overtly physical. I also ask whether or not Denney's physical play was more of a "tough guy" physicality or a "space maker" physicality.

Overall, some may say your line is still better, but not by as much as you claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
2nd line: Elias - Oates - Hextall Sr. vs Blake - Watson - Taylor

I like Toe Blake , but I'm not sure how much I like Watson and Taylor.I admit my knowledge on Watson is limited and you didn't provide a bio so I'll assume he was a decent playmaker but nothing spectacular either.Blake's record is also boosted by the war years , even though he managed to have some great years before it so it's not the end of the world in that regard.I think my Oates-Hextall Sr. combo is just too explosive and talented not to consider my line superior.Elias is basically Taylor offensively with a defensive game on top of it.The chemistry between the Oates-Hextall Sr combo is a match made for heaven and while your line certainly has potential , I think the line relies too much on Toe Blake , just like your first line relied too much on Elmer Lach.

Overall , my line has the advantage.
Unfortunately, my time for writing bios was limited. I wish I could've done some digging on these guys (Watson especially because, like you, my knowledge on him is limited). I'll go with what I know here.

Oates is one of my favourites - a guy who gets little respect in the hockey community, but his longevity and his consistency, in my mind, make him a Hall of Famer.

As for Watson, the reading I'm doing on him now makes him out to be a skilled, speedy player who was a strong back checker who sometimes had a bit of a temper. I actually took a look at your Hextall bio for some help, because the two were teammates and line mates for some time. You actually have a quote that talks about three players "rapidly becoming legends", and you crossed out the other two names next to Hextall. Watson was one of the other two. Here's some more quotes I found:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette - February 2, 1944
Most impressive member of the visiting team was Watson, whose speed and neat stick-handling brought the fans to their feet several times.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...l-watson&hl=en

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Day - January 7, 1941
Watson bagged four goals and an assist to move up to second place among point-getters with 23.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...l-watson&hl=en

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette - October 28, 1935
Watson, star goal-getter for the Montreal Royals...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...l-watson&hl=en

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette - January 17, 1936
Manager Lester Patrick today announced the recall of Phil Watson, speedy wing man...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...l-watson&hl=en

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen - February 3, 1944
Spark of the club appears to be Watson. The former New York Ranger can really turn it on when in the mood. He makes few mistakes with the puck, and handles himself with class every time he moves.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...l-watson&hl=en

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
Watson was a key player in the spring of 1940, when the New York Rangers famously won the Stanley Cup. Watson was brilliant in the semi-finals against Boston, checking the famed "Kraut Line," who finished 1-2-3 in NHL regular season scoring. Watson held them to just a lone goal in their six game series. Watson, meanwhile, scored twice, including the winner in game one. Watson would do a similar defensive job against Toronto, while adding a lead-tying 5 points in the finals.
Enough about him for now.

I think my Blake-Wtason duo could be quite explosive, almost as much so as Oates-Hextall. To say that Blake's career was bolstered by the war years while you have Bryan Hextall (another war-time player) on your team doesn't seem particularly fair.

Looking at Taylor and Elias, both men seem to be quite even offensively, and for Elias to last so long with the Devils, I'm inclined to say he's as strong defensively as Taylor is. I give Taylor the edge in physicality for his noted hitting.

Overall, I actually believe that our 2nd lines are even.

I'll stop here for now, but I'll get to the rest of your comments later today.

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04-10-2012, 01:58 PM
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Watson was a Doug Gilmour/Ken Linseman type, probably ranking somewhere between the two.

Good all around player, with one weakness - he had nothing on his shot. So as an offensive player he was more of a passer and had to do his scoring from in close.

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04-10-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Watson was a Doug Gilmour/Ken Linseman type, probably ranking somewhere between the two.

Good all around player, with one weakness - he had nothing on his shot. So as an offensive player he was more of a passer and had to do his scoring from in close.
This is quite true. I should mention that a lot of other articles I found on Watson state that his goals often came from around the goalmouth, but I think that's a technique that could work in the context of this line he's on.

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04-10-2012, 02:25 PM
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Nighbor never topped the league in scoring...
Yes, he did. He and Joe Malone lapped the NHA in its last season. They tied in goals, and though I don't have the assist stats in front of me (which were not official, but are also not "reconstructed" as I understand it), I believe Nighbor led the league in scoring, overall.

One of Lach's 1st place points finishes is in 1944-45, which is problematic for obvious reasons. Offensively, Nighbor and Lach are close.

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04-10-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yes, he did. He and Joe Malone lapped the NHA in its last season. They tied in goals, and though I don't have the assist stats in front of me (which were not official, but are also not "reconstructed" as I understand it), I believe Nighbor led the league in scoring, overall.

One of Lach's 1st place points finishes is in 1944-45, which is problematic for obvious reasons. Offensively, Nighbor and Lach are close.
Right, I forgot I was getting my numbers from hockey-reference, which does not include NHA finishes. my bad.

My point stands

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04-10-2012, 03:25 PM
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Bryan Hextall Sr.'s prime wasn't in the war , and he actually didn't play for a year during the war , in 1945.I strongly disagree that Watson and Blake can be as explosive as Oates-Hextall Sr.I think Watson is still clearly the worst of the four offensively and won't be able to exploit Blake's goal scoring talent as much as Oates will exploit Hextall Sr. goal scoring talent (shown by his couple of goal scoring titles) to the fullest.It's also worth noting that Blake , just like Hextall Sr , will be the one to both score goals and make a big part of the ''hustle''.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-10-2012 at 03:33 PM.
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04-10-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post

I might be crazy for saying this, but the Denneny-Nedomansky comparison can be interpreted differently. The chasm between them is not so big if you put more stock into Ned's international and Czech league resume. Heck, even his WHA record could point to a strong goalscoring prowess. In the WHA, though, he took on more of a power forward role and often had the Esposito-like task of standing in front of the net and getting the garbage goals. With his size, very few people could move him. If we discredit Nedomansky's international and foreign resume, then what does that say about Balderis?

.
I don't discredit it , but I won't credit it as much as Denneny's goal scoring record , which is fantastic.

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04-10-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Bryan Hextall Sr.'s prime wasn't in the war , and he actually didn't play for a year during the war , in 1945.I strongly disagree that Watson and Blake can be as explosive as Oates-Hextall Sr.I think Watson is still clearly the worst of the four offensively and won't be able to exploit Blake's goal scoring talent as much as Oates will exploit Hextall Sr. goal scoring talent (shown by his couple of goal scoring titles) to the fullest.It's also worth noting that Blake , just like Hextall Sr , will be the one to both score goals and make a big part of the ''hustle''.
It depends what you consider to be Hextall's prime. His top 3 seasons, points-wise, came in the 3 seasons just before he left for his 1 year in the service. The two years where he led the league in goals came just before that, when the league's top talents were still there.

Blake's top season, points-wise, came in that 1944-45 year where many players were gone for the war, but 4 of his all-star team finishes came before or after the war years truly made an impact on the NHL. The year where he led the league in points? Also well before the war years.

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04-10-2012, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
It depends what you consider to be Hextall's prime. His top 3 seasons, points-wise, came in the 3 seasons just before he left for his 1 year in the service. The two years where he led the league in goals came just before that, when the league's top talents were still there.

Blake's top season, points-wise, came in that 1944-45 year where many players were gone for the war, but 4 of his all-star team finishes came before or after the war years truly made an impact on the NHL. The year where he led the league in points? Also well before the war years.
40,41,42,43 for Hextall's prime seems fair with three other good seasons.

He finished 1st , 1st , 1st , 2nd in all-star voting during this four year stretch , won two consecutives goal-scoring titles as well as a 2nd and 5th place (+ another 5th).He also won a scoring title and another 2nd place in points + a couple of top 10 as well.

Except for 1939 , Blake wasn't all that spectacular until the war years came offensively.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-10-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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04-10-2012, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
40,41,42,43 for Hextall's prime seems fair with three other good seasons.

He finished 1st , 1st , 1st , 2nd in all-star voting during this four year stretch , won two consecutives goal-scoring titles as well as a 2nd and 5th place (+ another 5th).He also won a scoring title and another 2nd place in points + a couple of top 10 as well.

Except for 1939 , Blake wasn't all that spectacular until the war years came offensively.
Blake was a 1st team all-star in 39 and 40, had 59 points in 43 and 44, and hit 50 points in 46 and 47 (after the war ended!).

Even taking away 1944-45 from both players, it looks like this:

Blake: 4 seasons of 50+ points, 2 seasons of 40+
Hextall: 3 seasons of 50+ points, 1 season of 40+

Blake: 4 top 10's in goals, 6 top 10's in assists, 5 top 10's in points
Hextall: 6 top 10's in goals, 1 top 10 in assists, 4 top 10's in points

How about playoffs?

Hextall: 17 points in 37 games
Blake: 60 points in 52 games (took out 45 again)

How is that "not all that spectacular"? If Toe Blake was unspectacular, then what does that make Hextall?

To praise Hextall and discredit Blake when, offensively, Blake exceeds Hextall in everything except goalscoring is incredibly unfair to Toe Blake as a player.

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