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Is MaxPac the second best pick in the 2007 draft?

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Old
03-09-2012, 04:27 AM
  #101
chaosrevolver
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I still think the worst trade ever was the Golden Seals getting an old and washed up Ralph Backstrom for their 1st overall pick, in which we drafted Guy Lafleur. Gomez trade won't top that unless McDonagh becomes a HOF defender imo.

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03-09-2012, 08:21 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
I still think the worst trade ever was the Golden Seals getting an old and washed up Ralph Backstrom for their 1st overall pick, in which we drafted Guy Lafleur. Gomez trade won't top that unless McDonagh becomes a HOF defender imo.
Pollock traded Ernie Hickey for that swap of first round picks. At one point in the season it looked like the Kings would out-suck the Seals. Backstrom, who had asked for a trade, was dealt to LA and contributed to getting the Kings out of the #1 pick position.

The Seals did finish dead last and Lafleur became a Hab.


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03-09-2012, 08:47 AM
  #103
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It's pretty damm close in my opinion. In this CAP age, the cumulative negative effect of this trade is mindboggling. It's at least in the Mike Milbury world of bad trades.
- Spezza+Chara for Yashin
- Luongo and Jokinen for Parrish and Kvasha

That's way worse than the Gomez deal. McD will be good, but I don't see him in the Chara/Luongo category. Then add Jokinen, who was decent for Florida, and Spezza...
The Gomez deal was awful, but we did not trade a franchise player, maybe not even an allstar player. There are many more lopsided trades in the history of the game (Naslund for Stojanov, Neely for Pederson, Hull for Ramage, Roy to Colorado, Esposito to Boston, Hasek to BUF for spare parts...)

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03-09-2012, 08:53 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Naoned View Post
- Spezza+Chara for Yashin
- Luongo and Jokinen for Parrish and Kvasha

That's way worse than the Gomez deal. McD will be good, but I don't see him in the Chara/Luongo category. Then add Jokinen, who was decent for Florida, and Spezza...
The Gomez deal was awful, but we did not trade a franchise player, maybe not even an allstar player. There are many more lopsided trades in the history of the game (Naslund for Stojanov, Neely for Pederson, Hull for Ramage, Roy to Colorado, Esposito to Boston, Hasek to BUF for spare parts...)
Kovalev for Balej was also really loopsided.

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03-09-2012, 09:46 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Naoned View Post
- Spezza+Chara for Yashin
- Luongo and Jokinen for Parrish and Kvasha

That's way worse than the Gomez deal. McD will be good, but I don't see him in the Chara/Luongo category. Then add Jokinen, who was decent for Florida, and Spezza...
The Gomez deal was awful, but we did not trade a franchise player, maybe not even an allstar player. There are many more lopsided trades in the history of the game (Naslund for Stojanov, Neely for Pederson, Hull for Ramage, Roy to Colorado, Esposito to Boston, Hasek to BUF for spare parts...)
Too soon to say this. McD looks amazing over there and it's his first full year. If we had him in our roster this year instead of Gomez I think we might've had a shot at the playoffs. He's a stud logging huge minutes on a club that's been in first place for much of the year. No, it will never be Luongo/Jokinen bad but it's an awful trade that we now have the unpleasant task of getting to see just how bad it hurts us for the next decade+.

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03-09-2012, 11:42 AM
  #106
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After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that Logan Couture is extremely overrated.

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03-09-2012, 11:51 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Crazy when you think about it. Too bad they traded McDo, we could have had 3 in the top 10 or close to it
whats crazy is that they didnt want to give away higgins for hossa, and they gave mcdo for gomez ...

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03-09-2012, 12:05 PM
  #108
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What about McDonagh ?
Poor Dmen are always being thrown under the rug when they aren't scoring like forwards...even though scoring is the least necessary component of playing actual defense in hockey. But fans like stats more than visual evidence, although memory plays a factor in stats bias as well.

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03-09-2012, 12:26 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Naoned View Post
- Spezza+Chara for Yashin
- Luongo and Jokinen for Parrish and Kvasha

That's way worse than the Gomez deal. McD will be good, but I don't see him in the Chara/Luongo category. Then add Jokinen, who was decent for Florida, and Spezza...
The Gomez deal was awful, but we did not trade a franchise player, maybe not even an allstar player. There are many more lopsided trades in the history of the game (Naslund for Stojanov, Neely for Pederson, Hull for Ramage, Roy to Colorado, Esposito to Boston, Hasek to BUF for spare parts...)
Those are simply the 2 worst.

It's definately in the Bertuzzi/McCabe/Ruutu for Linden ballpark.

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03-09-2012, 01:25 PM
  #110
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With the way Patrick Kane is playing this year, you can bump pacioretty up another notch.

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04-07-2012, 10:55 PM
  #111
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With his 33 goals, Pacioretty is the first and only for now to score that much in a season from all 2007 draftee (previous best was Couture at 32).

He's also the second 07 draftee to hit the 65 pts mark in a season after Patrick Kane.

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04-08-2012, 05:03 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
With his 33 goals, Pacioretty is the first and only for now to score that much in a season from all 2007 draftee (previous best was Couture at 32).

He's also the second 07 draftee to hit the 65 pts mark in a season after Patrick Kane.
Well, its pretty clear, if that draft was redone today, max definately wouldnt go 22 nd again. So were very fortunate to have timmins

The scary part is , mcdonaugh would probably go earlier than 12 too

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04-08-2012, 11:26 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
Well, its pretty clear, if that draft was redone today, max definately wouldnt go 22 nd again. So were very fortunate to have timmins

The scary part is , mcdonaugh would probably go earlier than 12 too
If we knew what we now know, i will suggest that mr. Subban may join Max and McDo in the first round...

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04-08-2012, 11:48 AM
  #114
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1.Kane
2.Benn
3.Patches
4.Couture
5.Mcd/Subban

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04-08-2012, 12:57 PM
  #115
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He is in the top three that is for sure.

BTW, Timmins knows how to pick them; too bad we trade most of them away .

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04-08-2012, 02:13 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Too soon to say this. McD looks amazing over there and it's his first full year. If we had him in our roster this year instead of Gomez I think we might've had a shot at the playoffs. He's a stud logging huge minutes on a club that's been in first place for much of the year. No, it will never be Luongo/Jokinen bad but it's an awful trade that we now have the unpleasant task of getting to see just how bad it hurts us for the next decade+.
I agree that the Habs got ripped off in the McD trade (as do most). They should have kept him, or at least got more for trading an asset like that. It was a poor managerial decision and I'm not arguing that.

With that said I find your comments interesting. For years you've screamed "tank, tank, tank". You yourself said that with McD the Habs probably would have made the playoffs, and I agree. So clearly we probably wouldn't have been able to land the 3rd overall pick with McD on the Habs.

So I'm curious, so if you had to choose (in hindsight), would you rather have McD or the 3rd overall this year? Because as you implied, we probably couldn't have had both...

Also, if the Habs manage to pick the right guy and get a true superstar (which McD is not, and probably will not be IMO), would you still say that the McD trade will still hurt the team badly "for the next decade"?

I am by no means saying that trading good assets for nothing to finish low in the standings is a good strategy when it comes to building a team. I'd say that while it was a terrible trade, the circumstances that followed it certainly suggest that there is a silver lining to this story.

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04-08-2012, 02:20 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Whizniewski View Post
After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that Logan Couture is extremely overrated.
A 23 year old who's good defensively and has had back to back 30+ goal seasons on a playoff team. What is there to overrate, the kid is good.

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04-08-2012, 02:49 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
I still think the worst trade ever was the Golden Seals getting an old and washed up Ralph Backstrom for their 1st overall pick, in which we drafted Guy Lafleur. Gomez trade won't top that unless McDonagh becomes a HOF defender imo.
Worst trade ever has to be: Dryden and Alex Campbell to Montreal in exchange for Guy Allen and Paul Reid.

Not only did Dryden go on to be the best goalie of his generation (and possibly the best ever) but he was directly responsible for costing the Bruins at least two cups. 1971 and '79 has Boston's name on it if Dryden is in Boston's lineup and it could've been many, many more... Boston had the double loss of not only missing out on not having him in the lineup but also having to lose against him. Horrible trade.
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Originally Posted by bjac View Post
I agree that the Habs got ripped off in the McD trade (as do most). They should have kept him, or at least got more for trading an asset like that. It was a poor managerial decision and I'm not arguing that.

With that said I find your comments interesting. For years you've screamed "tank, tank, tank". You yourself said that with McD the Habs probably would have made the playoffs, and I agree. So clearly we probably wouldn't have been able to land the 3rd overall pick with McD on the Habs.
Just to clarify... I haven't screamed 'tank'. I've said we should rebuild. Trade vets for prospects etc... I would've dealt guys like Koivu, Souray, Markov, Kovalev for prospects and picks. And there's no way I would've traded for Gomez to begin with so we might've slipped in the standings years ago anyway.

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Originally Posted by bjac View Post
So I'm curious, so if you had to choose (in hindsight), would you rather have McD or the 3rd overall this year? Because as you implied, we probably couldn't have had both...
We could've had high picks the last few years with McD developing in the minors though.

If you were to ask me if I'd trade our 3rd overall for McD now? I'd have to say no. We need a big scoring forward and I think we need that more than we need McD. Just too bad we couldn't have had both.
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Also, if the Habs manage to pick the right guy and get a true superstar (which McD is not, and probably will not be IMO), would you still say that the McD trade will still hurt the team badly "for the next decade"?
Yes.

Just as I would say that trading Rask, Seguin, Hamilton etc... has hurt the Leafs even if they find a superstar this year as well. Those were dumb trades and they'll always hurt.
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Originally Posted by bjac View Post
I am by no means saying that trading good assets for nothing to finish low in the standings is a good strategy when it comes to building a team. I'd say that while it was a terrible trade, the circumstances that followed it certainly suggest that there is a silver lining to this story.
It's a nice way to look at it and if that's how you wish to spin it I won't try to dampen your positive thoughts.

But no, I think it was disastrous. It wasn't just that we dealt McD for Gomez, we went for other quick fixes and squandered trade assets to go along with it. All those guys left for nothing PLUS we gave up McD plus we drafted mid rounds and missed out on high picks. Basically we just spun our wheels for a few years and could've been that much further ahead. Not only that but players who could've been part of a good team now like (Pleks and AK) are that much older and we're only now starting to rebuild.

It's great that we're finally getting a top pick now but we could've (and should've done this) a long time ago.


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04-08-2012, 03:06 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by bjac View Post
I agree that the Habs got ripped off in the McD trade (as do most). They should have kept him, or at least got more for trading an asset like that. It was a poor managerial decision and I'm not arguing that.

With that said I find your comments interesting. For years you've screamed "tank, tank, tank". You yourself said that with McD the Habs probably would have made the playoffs, and I agree. So clearly we probably wouldn't have been able to land the 3rd overall pick with McD on the Habs.

So I'm curious, so if you had to choose (in hindsight), would you rather have McD or the 3rd overall this year? Because as you implied, we probably couldn't have had both...

Also, if the Habs manage to pick the right guy and get a true superstar (which McD is not, and probably will not be IMO), would you still say that the McD trade will still hurt the team badly "for the next decade"?

I am by no means saying that trading good assets for nothing to finish low in the standings is a good strategy when it comes to building a team. I'd say that while it was a terrible trade, the circumstances that followed it certainly suggest that there is a silver lining to this story.
You have no idea what you are talking about...

McDonagh is already the best defenseman on the best team in the East logging around 25+mins per game and is playing against the best opposing forwards while still maintaining +25 and 32 points.

At this rate, he will compete for the Norris trophy in about 2-3 years if not as early as next year.

Ryan Mcdonagh will be at least on par with Ryan Suter and might surpass him in 2-3 years... and Ryan Suter is a legit superstar 1st pair defensemen. So yes, the Habs gave a future superstar to acquire the infamous Scott ''The most overpaid player in the NHL history'' Gomez !!

Yes, the trade is THAT BAD mister Bjac !!

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04-08-2012, 03:11 PM
  #120
Em Ancien
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Originally Posted by Erika EllerWick View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about...

McDonagh is already the best defenseman on the best team in the East logging around 25+mins per game and is playing against the best opposing forwards while still maintaining +25 and 32 points.

At this rate, he will compete for the Norris trophy in about 2-3 years if not as early as next year.

Ryan Mcdonagh will be at least on par with Ryan Suter and might surpass him in 2-3 years... and Ryan Suter is a legit superstar 1st pair defensemen. So yes, the Habs gave a future superstar to acquire the infamous Scott ''The most overpaid player in the NHL history'' Gomez !!

Yes, the trade is THAT BAD mister Bjac !!

Fixed

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04-08-2012, 03:37 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Erika EllerWick View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about...
This is cute, especially coming from a poster like yourself.

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McDonagh is already the best defenseman on the best team in the East logging around 25+mins per game and is playing against the best opposing forwards while still maintaining +25 and 32 points.
He might be close to the best on the Rangers, but hes not even close to the best in the East, let alone the league. The Rangers play team defense as good or better than any other team in the League. Not to mention their goalie might get the Vesna this year.

Quote:
At this rate, he will compete for the Norris trophy in about 2-3 years if not as early as next year.
Pure speculation and highly arguable. My bet is that he ends up being above average over his career, maybe with a nomination or two at best, with never winning one.

Quote:
Ryan Mcdonagh will be at least on par with Ryan Suter and might surpass him in 2-3 years... and Ryan Suter is a legit superstar 1st pair defensemen. So yes, the Habs gave a future superstar to acquire the infamous Scott ''The most overpaid player in the NHL history'' Gomez !!
Talk about hype. "Will be at least on part with Suter"? Don't speak in absolutes as if you can tell the future. He'd be lucky to reach Suters effectiveness. My bet is that Suter is the better defensmen in the end.


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Yes, the trade is THAT BAD mister Bjac !!
You need to work on your reading comprehension. You misquote people all the time and it isnt getting any better. I NEVER said that the trade wasn't bad, so don't put those words in my mouth.


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04-08-2012, 03:53 PM
  #122
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It's a nice way to look at it and if that's how you wish to spin it I won't try to dampen your positive thoughts.
I have put not spin on this either way. I have stated that it was a bad trade, but simply pointed out that if things had transpired differently that we probably wouldn't be looking at the pick we have now. Something that you essentially suggested when you said that the Habs would have battled for a playoff spot with him on the squad.

Quote:
But no, I think it was disastrous. It wasn't just that we dealt McD for Gomez, we went for other quick fixes and squandered trade assets to go along with it. All those guys left for nothing PLUS we gave up McD plus we drafted mid rounds and missed out on high picks. Basically we just spun our wheels for a few years and could've been that much further ahead. Not only that but players who could've been part of a good team now like (Pleks and AK) are that much older and we're only now starting to rebuild.

It's great that we're finally getting a top pick now but we could've (and should've done this) a long time ago.
I never defended the trade, so I don't understand why you feel you have to argue that it was a bad one... As I have stated several times now, I agree that it was disastrous. I'm also not arguing that a top pick years ago would have been ideal. Of course it would, that is common sense. I was mearly pointing out that if McD had been kept, the reality of the situation is that with the management and their philosophy of making the playoffs as the top priority, Montreal probably wouldn't have gotten a top pick in either this year, or the 3 years before it.

Its obvious that keeping McD was the best choice 4 years ago. They lost him for pretty much nothing. When asking my question I was assuming that the Canadiens were in the present day situation, and not some hypothetical timeline that has been constructed in hindsight.

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04-08-2012, 04:18 PM
  #123
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To be fair JVR is a year younger than Pacioretty. Had he been able to stay healthy who knows, Pacioretty really only put it all together last year. But I'm not sure I'd even consider trading Pac for JVR considering how frustrating the latter has been so far.

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04-08-2012, 04:44 PM
  #124
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To be fair JVR is a year younger than Pacioretty. Had he been able to stay healthy who knows, Pacioretty really only put it all together last year. But I'm not sure I'd even consider trading Pac for JVR considering how frustrating the latter has been so far.
6 months younger... BIG difference!!!

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04-08-2012, 04:51 PM
  #125
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I have put not spin on this either way. I have stated that it was a bad trade, but simply pointed out that if things had transpired differently that we probably wouldn't be looking at the pick we have now. Something that you essentially suggested when you said that the Habs would have battled for a playoff spot with him on the squad.
I was just saying that the way you phrased it is a nice way of looking at it that's all. It's kind of the way we have to look at things if we want to be positive.

What happened happened... nothing we can do about, so we might as well just try to hope for the best in the future. The top five pick will (hopefully) help.
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I never defended the trade, so I don't understand why you feel you have to argue that it was a bad one... As I have stated several times now, I agree that it was disastrous. I'm also not arguing that a top pick years ago would have been ideal. Of course it would, that is common sense.
I didn't suggest or think that you did.
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I was mearly pointing out that if McD had been kept, the reality of the situation is that with the management and their philosophy of making the playoffs as the top priority, Montreal probably wouldn't have gotten a top pick in either this year, or the 3 years before it.

Its obvious that keeping McD was the best choice 4 years ago. They lost him for pretty much nothing. When asking my question I was assuming that the Canadiens were in the present day situation, and not some hypothetical timeline that has been constructed in hindsight.
Right, I get it. All I was trying to do was answer your question. And yeah, I think it's bad despite the top 5 pick. I gave my reasoning why above.

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