In 1998, Paul Kariya scored 31 points in 22 games and finished 5th on his (not very good) team in scoring. His teammate Teemu Sellanne won the Rocket that year with 52 goals. The dead-puck era was in full swing.
In 2012, Sidney Crosby scored 37 points in 22 games and finished 9th on his (very good) team in scoring. His teammate Evgeni Malkin won the Art Ross with 109 points.
Gut feeling tells me that Crosby had the better season, as Crosby is widely considered the best player in the game, while Kariya was less so. But looking at the two seasons, I don't see a whole lot to differentiate them. It's not so much that Crosby's doing something common this year, but I really don't think Kariya's short season is quite as well known as it could be.
I don't have the stats, but I wonder who Kariya played with when he was playing that year? Selanne? That's a much better linemate than Matt Cooke.
Nevertheless, both good feats by very talented players, would have been nice to see what they could have accomplished through a full year, and if the pace held up!
Kariya at the time was more the best left-winger top 5 player in the league kind of player, Crosby is more the best player in the league kind of player.
I do find it funny that as soon as sakic wins the hart in 2001 and iginla wins the art ross in 2002, jagr is no longer the best player in the world. While crosby, who hasnt won an art ross or hart in the past 5 seasons, is still the best player in the world. Double standard.
We're currently in the dead puck era, dude. Crosby by a lot.
Maybe. I'm not sure that we'll be describing the current era as "dead puck" in the future, but you are right that the two aren't all that different. I do think that what has been said about the DPE is overstated. Add Kariya's projected 116 point season in 1998 and a couple more 95-point seasons from Lindros, and the era looks very different. On the same token, adding a 130-point Crosby to the last 2 years changes the landscape a great deal as well. However, the perceived dead puck era effect couldn't go unmentioned
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan1el
This is like comparing Gretzky's 215 point Season to Jagr's 149. Both incredible Seasons, but Crosby's is just miles and miles ahead.
A 6 point difference is not a 66 point difference no matter how you torture it. Crosby would have beaten Kariya by 15 points if they both played 82 games at pace in the same year. That's like comparing Malkin and Stamkos, which isn't nearly a good reason to get uppity like that.
Anyway, my take is that offence aside, Crosby's role on his team guarantees he's more valuable on the ice than a player like Kariya. I just think it's quite curious that I hear so little talk about a lost potential 116 point season when Kariya's career is discussed.
I think all Kariya base discussion are made of what if, like no Sutter or other major injury would have happen to him. And Kariya missing the 1998 season and Nagano olympics and his very peak is one of the subjects when we talk about kariya.
I do find it funny that as soon as sakic wins the hart in 2001 and iginla wins the art ross in 2002, jagr is no longer the best player in the world. While crosby, who hasnt won an art ross or hart in the past 5 seasons, is still the best player in the world. Double standard.
Maybe people were and are judging by their play on the ice, not awards from the media.
Maybe people were and are judging by their play on the ice, not awards from the media.
jagr was playing full seasons and among the top scorers, sid on the other hand has missed the past year and a half, and before that was outscored by sedin or malkin in back to back seasons, nice try. Jagr can only be the best when he wins art rosses by big margins, while sid can sit on the sidelines have 20-40 game seasons and be called the best. Then again i cant blame him too much, the talent level has dropped significantly in the past 2 seasons. When you dont have ovechkin as comp anymore and no one on jagr's level, its easier to be called the best.
We're currently in the dead puck era, dude. Crosby by a lot.
in 1997-1998, only 2 50G seasons, and this year we have a 60G season.
in 1997-1998, 102 pts was the higest, this year Malkin have 109...
Kariya 17 G in 22 GP is very impressive. I don't pretend Kariya was beter than Crosby, but 1995 to 1999 he was dominant, like Crosby is, today.
Well, Kariya was my favorite player during my childhood, very good player he deserve respect
EDIT: Ohhh and I think he was playing with Rucchin (a 2nd line guy). Crosby have better player around him (letang, malkin, neal, etc... that's certainly help on the PP)
EDIT 2: Selanne have 15g 15A in the 22 Game he played with Kariya (Could have 100 pts in his 73 game). So I don't think the argument "he played with selanne" is valuable, Selanne make him better and HE make selanne beter.
Last edited by agentremax: 04-09-2012 at 07:45 AM.
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Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
EDIT: Ohhh and I think he was playing with Rucchin (a 2nd line guy). Crosby have better player around him (letang, malkin, neal, etc... that's certainly help on the PP)
EDIT 2: Selanne have 15g 15A in the 22 Game he played with Kariya (Could have 100 pts in his 73 game). So I don't think the argument "he played with selanne" is valuable, Selanne make him better and HE make selanne beter.
These contradict eachother... so Crosby has better linemates even though his actually linemates are third-liners because he has good PP help. Rucchin was a second-liner but undoubtedly better than Crosby's linemates. Add Selanne...
If Crosby was playing with say Kunitz and Kovalchuk that would be comparable.
I love Kariya, he's my favourite player of all-time, but your argument is nonsensical.
Anyway, my take is that offence aside, Crosby's role on his team guarantees he's more valuable on the ice than a player like Kariya. I just think it's quite curious that I hear so little talk about a lost potential 116 point season when Kariya's career is discussed.
Because it is a dark point in his career. Kariya holding out in the summer of 1997 arguably is what can keep him out of the HHOF. He's close as it is, but take your minds back to that moment. Mario retired, Kariya was in the neighbourhood with a small token of other NHL stars to assume the mantle as the flagship player in the NHL. He certainly had the chance to do it. But no. He held out for more money. Then Selanne had a 50+ goal season without him and the mystique of Kariya being better than him was over.
Basically the 1997-'98 season for Kariya was a disaster. He held out until December, he got injured before the Olympics and he missed out a chance to lead his country to the promised land. He also played 22 games which is too small of a sample size to even bother remembering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder
I do find it funny that as soon as sakic wins the hart in 2001 and iginla wins the art ross in 2002, jagr is no longer the best player in the world. While crosby, who hasnt won an art ross or hart in the past 5 seasons, is still the best player in the world. Double standard.
In 2001 there was the return of Mario. Jagr was in a slump at that time, he wasn't on pace to win the Art Ross in 2001 but the emergence of Mario helped that. Jagr won the Art Ross by 3 points over Sakic, but most agreed Sakic was the best player in the world that year. Jagr still finished 3rd in MVP voting though. And it wasn't a stretch to say he was still the best.
But in 2001-'02 he made what I think was a mistake and went to Washington, probably the most forgettable part of his career. Maybe he was bitter at not being "the man" in Pittsburgh anymore but the truth is had he stuck it out he still would have been "the man" because Mario was injured most of the year. But the new story was Iginla, Theodore and even Thornton's coming out party. Sakic was still a guy you could have called the best in the NHL because of his season and the Olympics but make no mistake, Jagr was not the best player in the world ever again other than some people considering him to be such in 2005-'06.
Crosby is a little different story. He was on pace to embarass the rest of the NHL in 2011. Then he gets hurt and is out a year. He played 22 games this year and still has the opportunity to prove he is the best player in the world. The way he's played so far this year tells me he hasn't lost a step at all. Its a lot like Mario missing the 1990-'91 season and then coming back. People still knew Mario was the best in the NHL if he were healthy. Others still thought Gretzky was better just like a few might still favour Malkin which is fine.
But truth be told, other than perhaps Malkin, there is no one who can hold a candle to Crosby and that's the difference between him and post 2001 Jagr.
A 6 point difference is not a 66 point difference no matter how you torture it. Crosby would have beaten Kariya by 15 points if they both played 82 games at pace in the same year. That's like comparing Malkin and Stamkos, which isn't nearly a good reason to get uppity like that.
(37/22)*82 =139
(31/22)*82= 116
23 point difference. Sid would be outscoring him by a 20% margin. That's fairly big. Of course, a 22 game sample size isn't really big enough to be making this kind of comparison anyway.
