There is more than one column to judge on. Just look at the goaltending stats. The PK stats. The team defence stats. This team was horrible. There is no debating that. The only debate is if they can get good enough to contend for the cup next season which is what we were promised.
We also held a playoff spot for the longest portion of the season since Burke got here (maybe since the lockout). And how nice of you to point out our goaltending stats, ignoring that we have one of the most inexperienced goaltending tandems in the league, and our main goaltender suffered a sophomore slump and a concussion.
We probably won't contend for the cup next year, which is fine, because YOU WERE PROMISED NO SUCH THING.
We also held a playoff spot for the longest portion of the season since Burke got here (maybe since the lockout). And how nice of you to point out our goaltending stats, ignoring that we have one of the most inexperienced goaltending tandems in the league, and our main goaltender suffered a sophomore slump and a concussion.
We probably won't contend for the cup next year, which is fine, because YOU WERE PROMISED NO SUCH THING.
It might be fine with you but not everybody is ok with losing.
We also held a playoff spot for the longest portion of the season since Burke got here (maybe since the lockout). And how nice of you to point out our goaltending stats, ignoring that we have one of the most inexperienced goaltending tandems in the league, and our main goaltender suffered a sophomore slump and a concussion.
We probably won't contend for the cup next year, which is fine, because YOU WERE PROMISED NO SUCH THING.
2008/2009 is the year in question, but your point still stands in underlying stats
Points: 81/80
Differential: -43/-33
ROW: ??/31
GF: 250 (11th)/231(10th)
GA: 293 (30th)/264(29th)
PK: 74.7% (30th)/77.3% (28th)
PP: 18.8% (16th)/18.4% (9th)
There certainly wasn't a promise per se, but judging by Burke's comments about not wanting a 5 year rebuild and the goal of putting together not just a team that can make the playoffs, but a contending team, it was certainly the goal by next year to have a team in contention.
2008/2009 is the year in question, but your point still stands in underlying stats
Points: 81/80
Differential: -43/-33
ROW: ??/31
GF: 250 (11th)/231(10th)
GA: 293 (30th)/264(29th)
PK: 74.7% (30th)/77.3% (28th)
PP: 18.8% (16th)/18.4% (9th)
There certainly wasn't a promise per se, but judging by Burke's comments about not wanting a 5 year rebuild and the goal of putting together not just a team that can make the playoffs, but a contending team, it was certainly the goal by next year to have a team in contention.
The point remains, but 2008-2009 should not be the year in question, because that was JFJ/Fletcher's team. The season was half over before Burke even got a chance to make changes, and most of what he could do was trade players off the team, not add to it.
There is a HUGE difference between a goal and a promise. Burke may not meet his goal in the time he anticipated (before he even saw what he had - hey, maybe things change!), but he did not break any promise.
The point remains, but 2008-2009 should not be the year in question, because that was JFJ/Fletcher's team. The season was half over before Burke even got a chance to make changes, and most of what he could do was trade players off the team, not add to it.
There is a HUGE difference between a goal and a promise. Burke may not meet his goal in the time he anticipated (before he even saw what he had - hey, maybe things change!), but he did not break any promise.
In 2 of 3 of Burke's full seasons he delivered a 74 point (2nd last) and 80 point (5th last) finishes, and both of those are below what fans consider a bad inherited team.
Logic suggests if you take a perceived bad team, and swap out the bad parts for your own personal choices what you believe are better parts now as part of the rebuild process, than the team should improve in the process and not decline, particularly when the goal was to attempt/desire to make the playoffs through change.
So the conclusion drawn from this outcome is that the plan is failing, based on the results being provided by the team today in comparison.
__________________
Signature: There is no greater demonstration of Fan patience then to suggest to "Play the Kids " and be willing to accept the consequences of those actions..
Burke badly misjudged this team, and badly overestimated his free agent signing abilities. So his retool failed hard and now we are rebuilding. It kind of sucks but people make mistakes and learn from them. I don't think we'll see another Kessel trade anytime soon.
I think the people that want to fire Burke should consider who MLSE will hire not who they want hired. The next guy will be the EXACT SAME, probably worse. God if Burke gets fired and they hire some ****face like Healy I'll lose my mind.
Although I am disappointed they had that collapse, I am happy we are going to be adding another solid young player to our team, hopefully that player can turn into a top 3 talent. Burke has rebuilt this team from the ground up, added a few older players to start putting a core together and has restocked the cupboard. This team will be a very exciting team in a few years, hopefully theyre in the playoffs next year.
Jason Blake 78gp 63p
Alexei Ponikarovsky 82gp 61p
Matt Stajan 76gp 55p
Mikhail Grabovski 78gp 48p
Lee Stempniak 75gp 44p
Niklas Hagman 65gp 42p
Pavel Kubina 82gp 40p
Nikolai Kulemin 73gp 31p
Tomas Kaberle 57gp 31p
John Mitchell 76gp 29p
Ian White 71gp 26p
Jeff Finger 66gp 23p
Jamal Mayers 61gp 16p
Luke Schenn 70gp 14p
Anton Stralman 38gp 13p
Boyd Devereaux 23gp 11p
Mike Van Ryn 27gp 11p
Jeremy Williams 11gp 7p
Jonas Frogren 41gp 7p
Brad May 58gp 7p
Jeff Hamilton 15gp 6p
Jiri Tlusty 14gp 4p
Phil Oreskovic 10gp 2p
Christian Hanson 5gp 2p
Jaime Sifers 23gp 2p
Ryan Hollweg 25gp 2p
Tim Stapleton 4gp 1p
Andre Deveaux 21gp 1p
Jay Harrison 7gp 1p
Ben Ondrus 11gp 0p
Vesa Toskala 53gp 22w
Martin Gerber 26gp 10w
Curtis Joseph 11gp 5w
Justin Pogge 7gp 1w
2011-2012
Phil Kessel 82gp 82p
Joffrey Lupul 66gp 67p
Mikhail Grabovski 74gp 51p
Tyler Bozak 73gp 47p
Dion Phaneuf 82gp 44p
Clarke MacArthur 73gp 43p
Tim Connolly 70gp 36p
Jake Gardiner 75gp 30p
Nikolai Kulemin 70gp 28p
John-Michael Liles 66gp 27p
Joey Crabb 67gp 26p
Luke Schenn 79gp 22p
Cody Franson 57gp 21p
Carl Gunnarsson 76gp 19p
Matthew Lombardi 62gp 18p
Matt Frattin 56gp 15p
David Steckel 76gp 13p
Nazem Kadri 21gp 7p
Mike Komisarek 45gp 5p
Joe Colborne 10gp 5p
Mike Brown 50gp 4p
Colby Armstrong 29gp 3p
Colton Orr 5gp 1p
Ryan Hamilton 2gp 1p
Philippe Dupuis 30gp 0p
Jay Rosehill 31gp 0p
Carter Ashton 15gp 0p
Jonas Gustavsson 42gp 17w
James Reimer 34gp 14w
Ben Scrivens 12gp 4w
Jussi Rynnas 2gp 0w
Personally I'd take the 2011-2012 team 10 times out of 10 based on potential. Same goes with the overhauled prospect pool. Sure these teams finished in similar positions in the end but stats don't tell the whole story. This is a growing team and just as the saying goes, the night is darkest just before the dawn.
In 2 of 3 of Burke's full seasons he delivered a 74 point (2nd last) and 80 point (5th last) finishes, and both of those are below what fans consider a bad inherited team.
Logic suggests if you take a perceived bad team, and swap out the bad parts for your own personal choices what you believe are better parts now as part of the rebuild process, than the team should improve in the process and not decline, particularly when the goal was to attempt/desire to make the playoffs through change.
So the conclusion drawn from this outcome is that the plan is failing, based on the results being provided by the team today in comparison.
No, logic dictates that if you take a veteran team and trade them away and go with a younger team, you might face struggles and inconsistency, like was experienced this year.
Even with identical results, which isn't quite true, a young team with potential to grow is better than an old team on the decline. And contrary to your belief, there is a lot more on the way than there was 4 years ago.
No, logic dictates that if you take a veteran team and trade them away and go with a younger team, you might face struggles and inconsistency, like was experienced this year.
Even with identical results, which isn't quite true, a young team with potential to grow is better than an old team on the decline. And contrary to your belief, there is a lot more on the way than there was 4 years ago.
So why would you trade 2 consecutive firsts, a high 2nd, and a 3rd round pick for a one-dimensional winger when you are expecting such struggles? Unfortunately that wasn't the case and the mandate was for an immediate playoff push after signing Komisarek, Beauchemin, Orr, and trading for Kessel. Revise history to your liking all you want, but that was the plan both in Burke's words and actions and it has blown up in his face quite badly.
Who on this team has potential to grow into top NHL players? Gardiner is always Exhibit A and he has some potential. Who else? Who is going to help us sweep the Bruins next year?
Jason Blake 78gp 63p
Alexei Ponikarovsky 82gp 61p
Matt Stajan 76gp 55p
Mikhail Grabovski 78gp 48p
Lee Stempniak 75gp 44p
Niklas Hagman 65gp 42p
Pavel Kubina 82gp 40p
Nikolai Kulemin 73gp 31p
Tomas Kaberle 57gp 31p
John Mitchell 76gp 29p
Ian White 71gp 26p
Jeff Finger 66gp 23p
Jamal Mayers 61gp 16p
Luke Schenn 70gp 14p
Anton Stralman 38gp 13p
Boyd Devereaux 23gp 11p
Mike Van Ryn 27gp 11p
Jeremy Williams 11gp 7p
Jonas Frogren 41gp 7p
Brad May 58gp 7p
Jeff Hamilton 15gp 6p
Jiri Tlusty 14gp 4p
Phil Oreskovic 10gp 2p
Christian Hanson 5gp 2p
Jaime Sifers 23gp 2p
Ryan Hollweg 25gp 2p
Tim Stapleton 4gp 1p
Andre Deveaux 21gp 1p
Jay Harrison 7gp 1p
Ben Ondrus 11gp 0p
Vesa Toskala 53gp 22w
Martin Gerber 26gp 10w
Curtis Joseph 11gp 5w
Justin Pogge 7gp 1w
2011-2012
Phil Kessel 82gp 82p
Joffrey Lupul 66gp 67p
Mikhail Grabovski 74gp 51p
Tyler Bozak 73gp 47p
Dion Phaneuf 82gp 44p
Clarke MacArthur 73gp 43p
Tim Connolly 70gp 36p
Jake Gardiner 75gp 30p
Nikolai Kulemin 70gp 28p
John-Michael Liles 66gp 27p
Joey Crabb 67gp 26p
Luke Schenn 79gp 22p
Cody Franson 57gp 21p
Carl Gunnarsson 76gp 19p
Matthew Lombardi 62gp 18p
Matt Frattin 56gp 15p
David Steckel 76gp 13p
Nazem Kadri 21gp 7p
Mike Komisarek 45gp 5p
Joe Colborne 10gp 5p
Mike Brown 50gp 4p
Colby Armstrong 29gp 3p
Colton Orr 5gp 1p
Ryan Hamilton 2gp 1p
Philippe Dupuis 30gp 0p
Jay Rosehill 31gp 0p
Carter Ashton 15gp 0p
Jonas Gustavsson 42gp 17w
James Reimer 34gp 14w
Ben Scrivens 12gp 4w
Jussi Rynnas 2gp 0w
Personally I'd take the 2011-2012 team 10 times out of 10 based on potential. Same goes with the overhauled prospect pool. Sure these teams finished in similar positions in the end but stats don't tell the whole story. This is a growing team and just as the saying goes, the night is darkest just before the dawn.
I'd take the latter as well....maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I don't see us having this discussion if Reimer didn't get concussed (and JML hasn't been the same since his concssion either)
So why would you trade 2 consecutive firsts, a high 2nd, and a 3rd round pick for a one-dimensional winger when you are expecting such struggles? Unfortunately that wasn't the case and the mandate was for an immediate playoff push after signing Komisarek, Beauchemin, Orr, and trading for Kessel. Revise history to your liking all you want, but that was the plan both in Burke's words and actions and it has blown up in his face quite badly.
Not being physical does not make a player one-dimensional. Many great players in the history of the NHL, including the greatest ever, were not physical. Especially in today's day and age, it may be more beneficial not to be physical, as it means you are more likely to play 82 games and not be affected by concussions.
You trade those draft picks because there is a greater chance that the player you are getting is better than the players you are trading. We ran into a worst case scenario, and so far, that has still proven to be true.
Yes, Burke signed some players and his goal was to make the playoffs, as is the same for every single GM, but making the playoffs was never the be-all and end-all, and Burke made that quite clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho
Who on this team has potential to grow into top NHL players? Gardiner is always Exhibit A and he has some potential. Who else? Who is going to help us sweep the Bruins next year?
What do you call a "top player"? Why do we need Malkins or Crosbys to win? Why do we have to sweep the Bruins next year?
We already have two PPG players. We have a defenseman who has shown Norris caliber play in the past. We have the best rookie defenseman who has shown top-pairing potential. Kadri has the raw talent to be a top player; we just don't know if he'll put it all together. A lot of our other prospects are too young to know.
St Louis is the 3rd best team in the league this season, and their highest scorer has 54 points.
Yes, it is. You support 100% everything that the GM has done from start to finish, irregardless of the resulting failure that it has become.
That kind of support is unconditional.
I don't support everything that Burke has done. However, I realize that I will never fully agree with everything that any GM does, there will be mistakes, and you have to look at the bigger picture. Firing Burke halfway through his build, especially considering the many great moves he has made for this franchise and the state of the team when he took over, would just put this organization further back.
I hated JFJ. I hated pretty much all of his moves. He did not have my support. I had lost a lot of hope. But I still cheered for the team.
Not being physical does not make a player one-dimensional. Many great players in the history of the NHL, including the greatest ever, were not physical. Especially in today's day and age, it may be more beneficial not to be physical, as it means you are more likely to play 82 games and not be affected by concussions.
They can battle in corners, along the boards, stick-check, get in the opponent's face, and yes, throw a shoulder once in a while. There is a reason Kessel has been touted as the softest player in the league and its not because he doesn't hit. It's because he's a coward, albeit a skilled one, that has directly caused his line to become the worst defensive first line in all of the NHL.
Quote:
You trade those draft picks because there is a greater chance that the player you are getting is better than the players you are trading. We ran into a worst case scenario, and so far, that has still proven to be true.
Still in denial, eh? Seguin destroyed the Leafs this season, single-handedly. Kessel, being the softest player in the league, was consistently rendered ineffective.
Quote:
Yes, Burke signed some players and his goal was to make the playoffs, as is the same for every single GM, but making the playoffs was never the be-all and end-all, and Burke made that quite clear.
When you are trading consecutive firsts, yes, there is tremendous urgency to perform at even an average level. Burke could not even accomplish an average performing team. He's failed. In fact, his teams have performed well below average. No top prospects on the horizon, and no top players better than Bozak at the moment.
You're supporting an utter failure. It really shows the kind of standards you have. Make no apologies for that, some people get by just fine in life with very low standards.
They can battle in corners, along the boards, stick-check, get in the opponent's face, and yes, throw a shoulder once in a while. There is a reason Kessel has been touted as the softest player in the league and its not because he doesn't hit. It's because he's a coward, albeit a skilled one, that has directly caused his line to become the worst defensive first line in all of the NHL.
Actually no, many of the top players in history didn't do that.
Kessel can battle in corners, stick-check, etc., and he does that more than many of the trolls on here like to say, but that is not his role. Kessel is not even close to the softest player in the league, and the only people who think that are people like you.
I wasn't aware that a line consists of one person on the ice at a time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho
Still in denial, eh? Seguin destroyed the Leafs this season, single-handedly. Kessel, being the softest player in the league, was consistently rendered ineffective.
It seems like you're the one in denial. How you perform against one team doesn't define a player. Boston doesn't play Toronto 82 times a year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho
When you are trading consecutive firsts, yes, there is tremendous urgency to perform at even an average level. Burke could not even accomplish an average performing team. He's failed. In fact, his teams have performed well below average. No top prospects on the horizon, and no top players better than Bozak at the moment.
You're supporting an utter failure. It really shows the kind of standards you have. Make no apologies for that, some people get by just fine in life with very low standards.
Lol, you're saying Bozak is our best player? What?
If you want to believe Bozak is our best player and we have no prospects, that's great for you. Go do it on another forum and stop trolling ours.
I have very high standards. My standards just aren't one-dimensional. Going on another team's forum and trying to convince people that their GM and all of their players are crap shows what kind of standards in life you really have.
