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This is How Youth is Developed

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11-18-2003, 08:01 PM
  #1
Mike8
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This is How Youth is Developed

Plugging a talented youngster next to two talented veterans, one wearing the 'C' and the other the 'A', is how you develop youth. Ryder's a talented player who's strong along the boards and complements a smaller playmaker's game well. Koivu makes players around him better. This is a winning combination no matter how you slice it.

In the first period Ryder was playing tentative hockey. He was lacking confidence. Ryder wasn't finishing his checks or playing with authority as he needs to. After Koivu started getting feisty, and Zednik started eating up Canuck defensemen along the boards, Ryder started to play stronger hockey. Then he set up Zednik on the first goal. Then he started throwing his weight around. By the third period Ryder was not only throwing his weight around, but going out of his way to make hits.

This is the underrated factor that dramatically affects a [young] player's play coming into effect: CONFIDENCE. Ryder's confidence grew all night and he--along with other youngsters such as Hossa, Hainsey--need to be placed in situations where they will succeed in order for that confidence to gain some stability. And that means they need to play with some good veterans for a long stretch of time rather than being bounced around between lines and out of the lineup.

Unfortunately for the Canadiens, the Koivu line was the only line that was consistently effective at both ends of the rink. The Juneau and Ribeiro lines were absolutely brutal in the offensive zone. Sure, they played along the boards for awhile, but they were held to the perimeter with ease. I wouldn't mind seeing a second line consisting of Hossa, Ribeiro and Bulis.

It was good to see some inspired hockey from Zednik, the same tenacity and playmaking we've come to expect from the consistent Koivu, and finally some strong linemates for Ryder to grow alongside. Let's hope the coach keeps this line together for a few months.

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11-18-2003, 08:11 PM
  #2
Kirk Muller
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Another great post Mike. I see you are warming up to the idea of Bulis on the top two lines .

Isn't it odd, something members of this board have talked about since camp, and especially since Koivu came back, was finally used by Julien. Ryder on the first line wasn't rocket science, but I can't believe it took this long.

If Julien changes that line next game, I will personally start the "fire Julien" thread.

Hossa should definitely be in next game, with Audette out. No way Kilger should be on the second line. He is a third liner at best.

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11-18-2003, 08:12 PM
  #3
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hmm...i really like the idea of putting bulis with ribiero and hossa. two big wingers who are good forecheckers and good in the corners with a playmaker like ribiero sounds like a good combination. the first line had a great game and see no reason to break it any time soon. it seems that zednik is most effective if playing with koivu, and ryder certainly deserves his chance on the top line - he's been one of our best wingers so far.

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11-18-2003, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEBASER
hmm...i really like the idea of putting bulis with ribiero and hossa. two big wingers who are good forecheckers and good in the corners with a playmaker like ribiero sounds like a good combination. the first line had a great game and see no reason to break it any time soon. it seems that zednik is most effective if playing with koivu, and ryder certainly deserves his chance on the top line - he's been one of our best wingers so far.
I am not sure you read the original thread, but the formula for success is 2 vets+1 rookie. Those lines are 3 rookies. Might work, but that isn't the "formula" for success.

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11-18-2003, 08:16 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Unfortunately for the Canadiens, the Koivu line was the only line that was consistently effective at both ends of the rink. The Juneau and Ribeiro lines were absolutely brutal in the offensive zone. Sure, they played along the boards for awhile, but they were held to the perimeter with ease. I wouldn't mind seeing a second line consisting of Hossa, Ribeiro and Bulis.
Very interesting second line. I would ideally like to see a larger bookend on the second line, but Kilger just refuses to shine there (sigh). It could be pretty interesting to see Bulis with Hossa and Ribeiro, but I wonder what the third line would be then (Kilger-Juneau-Dackell perhaps?). Damn, I wish we signed Wiemer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
It was good to see some inspired hockey from Zednik, the same tenacity and playmaking we've come to expect from the consistent Koivu, and finally some strong linemates for Ryder to grow alongside. Let's hope the coach keeps this line together for a few months.
This is my hope and fear as well. I hope CJ rides this out and doesn't decide to try to spread out the scoring and break this line up.

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11-18-2003, 08:34 PM
  #6
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I agree with you Mike8. But aside from Koivu and Zednik, do we have quality vets to develop the youngsters up front? A case could be made for Juneau to some extent as Bulis came into his own alongside him, but Audette? Perreault? Sundstrom? Dackell? Meh... Not for it. Those are not guys I would like to transmit anything to our youngsters (I had a dream: Mike Grier).

I like your 2nd line idea.

Maybe...

Zednik - Koivu - Ryder
Bulis - Ribeiro - Hossa
Kilger - Juneau - Dackell
Langdon - Begin - Sundstrom

Works for me...

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Old
11-18-2003, 08:36 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash13
If Julien changes that line next game, I will personally start the "fire Julien" thread.
And I'll personally make and distribute the "fire Julien" flyers.

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11-18-2003, 09:15 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash13
Another great post Mike. I see you are warming up to the idea of Bulis on the top two lines .

Isn't it odd, something members of this board have talked about since camp, and especially since Koivu came back, was finally used by Julien. Ryder on the first line wasn't rocket science, but I can't believe it took this long.

If Julien changes that line next game, I will personally start the "fire Julien" thread.

Hossa should definitely be in next game, with Audette out. No way Kilger should be on the second line. He is a third liner at best.
I second that!

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11-18-2003, 09:21 PM
  #9
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Maybe...

Zednik - Koivu - Ryder
Bulis - Ribeiro - Hossa
Kilger - Juneau - Dackell
Langdon - Begin - Sundstrom

Works for me...[/QUOTE]

looks fine to me....it is nice to see Audette and Perrault scratched.....garage sale

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Old
11-19-2003, 02:41 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen
Bulis - Ribeiro - Hossa
Aren't both Hossa and Bulis left wingers? I might consider trying Bulis out on right wing, but Hossa is way too inexperienced to start bouncing around to every position...

How about Hossa - Ribeiro - Bulis instead.

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11-19-2003, 03:03 AM
  #11
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The only problem in removing Bulis from the 3rd line, is it may slow down Juneau and Dackell quite a bit. I agree with Munchausen, in that Kilger is probably the only guy who can fill Bulis' role. If Chad flops, so does that third line. When Ward returns, I think he could do an admirable job beside Juneau and Dackell. About Sundtrom, we really can't afford to have both him and Dackell doing the same job on different lines. I'd much rather see Dagenais filling that fourth line RW spot, with some PP time.

Zednik - Koivu - Ryder
Hossa - Ribeirio - Bulis
Kilger - Juneau - Dackell
Langdon - Begin - Dagenais

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Old
11-19-2003, 03:49 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen
I agree with you Mike8. But aside from Koivu and Zednik, do we have quality vets to develop the youngsters up front? A case could be made for Juneau to some extent as Bulis came into his own alongside him, but Audette? Perreault? Sundstrom? Dackell? Meh... Not for it. Those are not guys I would like to transmit anything to our youngsters (I had a dream: Mike Grier).

I like your 2nd line idea.

Maybe...

Zednik - Koivu - Ryder
Bulis - Ribeiro - Hossa
Kilger - Juneau - Dackell
Langdon - Begin - Sundstrom

Works for me...
i like the first 2 lines but i would move sundstrom up to the 3rd line and kilger down because he skates better and probably would play better with the other 2. the 3rd line is a little soft but they would shut down alot of scoring with their commitment to defense.
also mabye playing with the sparkplug begin might rekindle some of kilgers meanness he showed against the bruins on the 01 playoffs

Zednik - Koivu - Ryder
Bulis - Ribero - Hossa
Sundstrom - Juneau - Dackell
Langdon - Begin - Kilger

i would also like to see hainsey get a bit more ice

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11-19-2003, 04:43 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adammacisaac
i like the first 2 lines but i would move sundstrom up to the 3rd line and kilger down because he skates better and probably would play better with the other 2. the 3rd line is a little soft but they would shut down alot of scoring with their commitment to defense.
also mabye playing with the sparkplug begin might rekindle some of kilgers meanness he showed against the bruins on the 01 playoffs

Zednik - Koivu - Ryder
Bulis - Ribero - Hossa
Sundstrom - Juneau - Dackell
Langdon - Begin - Kilger

i would also like to see hainsey get a bit more ice
i like the way you think. your thoughts are seconded in the line-up i put together in my thread just down the road.

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Old
11-19-2003, 05:23 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash13
Another great post Mike. I see you are warming up to the idea of Bulis on the top two lines .

Isn't it odd, something members of this board have talked about since camp, and especially since Koivu came back, was finally used by Julien. Ryder on the first line wasn't rocket science, but I can't believe it took this long.

If Julien changes that line next game, I will personally start the "fire Julien" thread.

Hossa should definitely be in next game, with Audette out. No way Kilger should be on the second line. He is a third liner at best.
Audette needs to go fast... he's hurting the club... i would be willing to give a draft pick if somebody just takes him off our hands... he needs to go back to Hamilton at least

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Old
11-19-2003, 06:52 AM
  #15
Mike8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anon
Damn, I wish we signed Wiemer.
I'm with you on this. But the problem comes down to money, I think: if Montreal picks up a $1.6M Wiemer, that leaves another vet to the pressbox at a high salary. If Montreal's going to pick up a Wiemer-like player, they'd need to shed a veteran in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash13
Another great post Mike. I see you are warming up to the idea of Bulis on the top two lines .

Isn't it odd, something members of this board have talked about since camp, and especially since Koivu came back, was finally used by Julien. Ryder on the first line wasn't rocket science, but I can't believe it took this long.
I'm warming up to Bulis on the second line because I'm starting to believe your idea that Bulis is being wasted alongside Juneau and Dackell. Neither of them can create any offense nor can they get to the slot. Bulis was far more dangerous offensively playing with a motivated Sundstrom even. He just needs some players to feed off of offensively if he's ever going to develop some offensive upside.

Also when watching Ribeiro's line, everyone keys in on him. The line lacks energy, defensive awareness, size along the boards, and speed. Plug two big wingers who are strong along the boards, one who's filled with energy, the other who brings some good raw talent, and there's some room for success. It would also give a lot more room for Ribeiro to move, which he hasn't been able to do of late.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Muchausen
I agree with you Mike8. But aside from Koivu and Zednik, do we have quality vets to develop the youngsters up front? A case could be made for Juneau to some extent as Bulis came into his own alongside him, but Audette? Perreault? Sundstrom? Dackell? Meh... Not for it. Those are not guys I would like to transmit anything to our youngsters (I had a dream: Mike Grier).

I like your 2nd line idea.

Maybe...

Zednik - Koivu - Ryder
Bulis - Ribeiro - Hossa
Kilger - Juneau - Dackell
Langdon - Begin - Sundstrom

Works for me...
You know I completely agree with you regarding Grier. I don't agree regarding Juneau, however. He just doesn't bring *anything* offensively. Sure he's got some vision, and we see glimpses of his past flair when he's got open ice (see: 4 on 4), but on even strength he's way too easily held to the perimeter and he lacks any jump or feistiness needed that can get a youngster rolling and feeling confident.

I would say that Sundstrom would have success playing with a young line. I just think he needs to play with talented players in order to succeed. When he played with Bulis on the third line, I thought he looked very strong. When Sundstrom's on his game, he's the most intelligent player Montreal has in terms of hockey sense. He's very strong in the neutral zone and causes a lot of turnovers. I still feel he's being wasted here.

Sundstrom looked good next to Higgins in their short stint alongside eachother, and I believe they play a similar game in a lot of ways. In that they're both extremely intelligent players with great hockey sense, dedication to all three zones, strong along the boards, with offensive upside. They may look good paired up in the future, perhaps with Plekanec in between.

Unless Kilger starts playing a meaner, more dedicated brand of hockey I'd say he's useless. But I wouldn't mind trying him out on the third line. Sundstrom on the fourth line is a waste, in my opinion. Would rather see Dwyer or Gratton there. Someone to bring some energy.

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Old
11-19-2003, 07:13 AM
  #16
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I agree with the 2 vets+1 rookie thing, and I feel the best way to develop Hossa would be on this line:

Hossa-Juneau-Bulis

Juneau's helped Bulis' game a lot, I don't see why, together, they wouldn't improve Hossa's. Also, I wouldn't think Ribeiro would be a good vet to have Hossa with, Ribeiro needs vets of his own to learn off of.

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Old
11-19-2003, 07:42 AM
  #17
Munchausen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All-Star
Aren't both Hossa and Bulis left wingers? I might consider trying Bulis out on right wing, but Hossa is way too inexperienced to start bouncing around to every position...

How about Hossa - Ribeiro - Bulis instead.
I beleive Hossa was touted as playing all 3 forwards positions well when he was drafted.

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Old
11-19-2003, 07:58 AM
  #18
Munchausen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
You know I completely agree with you regarding Grier. I don't agree regarding Juneau, however. He just doesn't bring *anything* offensively. Sure he's got some vision, and we see glimpses of his past flair when he's got open ice (see: 4 on 4), but on even strength he's way too easily held to the perimeter and he lacks any jump or feistiness needed that can get a youngster rolling and feeling confident.

I would say that Sundstrom would have success playing with a young line. I just think he needs to play with talented players in order to succeed. When he played with Bulis on the third line, I thought he looked very strong. When Sundstrom's on his game, he's the most intelligent player Montreal has in terms of hockey sense. He's very strong in the neutral zone and causes a lot of turnovers. I still feel he's being wasted here.

Sundstrom looked good next to Higgins in their short stint alongside eachother, and I believe they play a similar game in a lot of ways. In that they're both extremely intelligent players with great hockey sense, dedication to all three zones, strong along the boards, with offensive upside. They may look good paired up in the future, perhaps with Plekanec in between.

Unless Kilger starts playing a meaner, more dedicated brand of hockey I'd say he's useless. But I wouldn't mind trying him out on the third line. Sundstrom on the fourth line is a waste, in my opinion. Would rather see Dwyer or Gratton there. Someone to bring some energy.
I agree with you, although I think it's kind of moot debating until some vet shedding/retooling is done. I inquired about Barnes on the trading board, and a little earlier about Grier, and even earlier when we were in training camp about Moreau (see a trend here). I don't like Juneau, I despise Audette, I don't like Perreault, Dackell leaves me wanting more, Sundstrom leaves me wanting more...

We need leaders and intense character veterans to develop the youngsters. That's why Datsyuk and Zeterberg were able to grow so fast in Detroit. Right now I'm not satisfied with the vets we have and it's a bit of a concern for me as we DO need some good veteran presence to help ease in guys like Hossa, Ryder, Higgins, Plekanec, and even Ribeiro. They need to be thought competitiveness at the NHL level from a vet who can actually claim such a title.

So what's better? Getting rid of all the vets and playing only the kids? Playing the kids with poor veteran presence? I don't see 50 ways around it, we need to acquire at least one or two quality character veterans more while cutting in our very own stock to maximize the chances of success for the young guys. We're playing our future here. I don't think we should gamble with it by letting some rotten apples corrupt the young guys attitude wise.

edit: typo

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Old
11-19-2003, 08:00 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen
I beleive Hossa was touted as playing all 3 forwards positions well when he was drafted.
Maybe, but I'm all for letting him learn to play one position well at the NHL level before we start moving him around...

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