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Foligno isn't an untouchable but I think he's a core player for the Sens so they aren't going to even consider moving him unless its for another player they view as a core piece. Sorry Buffolo fan, but McNabb and Sekera really don't fall into that category. The only guy I'd consider moving him for is Ennis.
This is like Sabres fans saying, the only thing we would move Gerbe for is Spezza. I mean, why even make a statement like this? And if you are going to, at least add the parts to make it sound a little bit reasonable.
"Fans" like you drive me crazy. Nick Foligno himself was a 1st round pick. He's 24 years old and has improved statistically every year (minus last year) he's been in the league.
It's crazy to give him up "in a heartbeat" for a late first rounder.
He's a 30-35 point guy having a career year.
He has Alex Kovalev syndrome, and by that, I mean he just seems to leave you wanting more all the time.
I doubt he gets more than 40pts next year.
Plus, it just opens up another slot for a Rookie.
He averaged 34 points per 82 games from 21-23 years old, playing 2 of those 3 seasons on the team while scoring was depressed.
Why would anybody be surprised if he started averaging 45 points a year?
Also, we don't need spots for rookies. That implies that we can ice a full roster full of players who belong in their roles and have numerous prospects who are chomping at the bit to get into the league; neither of which are even close to true!
1) Silfverberg is probably the only forward prospect of note who seems a virtual lock to make the team, while everybody else seems highly unlikely.
2) This team needs top end talent now to bump people down into more appropriate roles. If our prospects look like they can make an impact on the team... great; get rid of a 4th liner or two and bump some guys down a spot.
3) We'd be lucky if Silfverberg turned into another Foligno.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh
sens have a forward influx next year (zibanejad, silfverberg, possibly stone/noesen/da costa)
Next year? ... No, next 3 years maybe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dma0034
Nick Foligno whose career stats indicate that he is a 3rd line talent is more valuable than a 1st round draft pick?
Really? ... Tell me about the probabilities of mid-late 1st round picks.
He averaged 34 points per 82 games from 21-23 years old, playing 2 of those 3 seasons on the team while scoring was depressed.
Why would anybody be surprised if he started averaging 45 points a year?
Also, we don't need spots for rookies. That implies that we can ice a full roster full of players who belong in their roles and have numerous prospects who are chomping at the bit to get into the league; neither of which are even close to true!
1) Silfverberg is probably the only forward prospect of note who seems a virtual lock to make the team, while everybody else seems highly unlikely.
2) This team needs top end talent now to bump people down into more appropriate roles. If our prospects look like they can make an impact on the team... great; get rid of a 4th liner or two and bump some guys down a spot.
3) We'd be lucky if Silfverberg turned into another Foligno.
Next year? ... No, next 3 years maybe.
Really? ... Tell me about the probabilities of mid-late 1st round picks.
I'd be absolutely shocked if zibanejad didn't start the season with the Sens. I'd be nearly as shocked if he didn't stick with the club full-time. I thought he was ready this year and I don't imagine he's taken a step back at all.
I'd be absolutely shocked if zibanejad didn't start the season with the Sens. I'd be nearly as shocked if he didn't stick with the club full-time. I thought he was ready this year and I don't imagine he's taken a step back at all.
He looked ready to be a 3rd liner, had a lost season and may not be ready to be any more than a 3rd liner next year. Ottawa badly needs offensive talent and can't afford to screw up their best prospect by rushing him before his offensive ability has caught up to the rest of his game. I wouldn't bat an eye if he were left off of the team.
Nick Foligno
Ott 2nd/3rd round pick 2012(45th or 75th pick)
In this case, consider Kuba and Gilroy(probably Carks too) as good as gone, since we may have Boro and/or others coming up. Then we could flip our 2 1st rounders either for a higher pick(if our scouts are eyeing someone in particular) or package them to get a nice young-ish asset.
Nick Foligno
Ott 2nd/3rd round pick 2012(45th or 75th pick)
In this case, consider Kuba and Gilroy(probably Carks too) as good as gone, since we may have Boro and/or others coming up. Then we could flip our 2 1st rounders either for a higher pick(if our scouts are eyeing someone in particular) or package them to get a nice young-ish asset.
Foligno is not worth the 12th overall pick or their best defensive prospect, let alone both. Terrible value for buffalo.
He's a 30-35 point guy having a career year.
He has Alex Kovalev syndrome, and by that, I mean he just seems to leave you wanting more all the time.
I doubt he gets more than 40pts next year.
Plus, it just opens up another slot for a Rookie.
He seems to get a lot more goalie interference penalties then Kovalev and just a few more hits... LOL.
40 points is a lot of points if that is what he gets next year anyway.. probably 35 will be at even strength with 3rd liner minutes and being an agitator and net presence.
Even if this season was Foligno's peak if he brings close to what he brought this season he won't be easily replaced. I think he will keep improving, scoring more goals, taking less penalties that put us down a man and score 40-60 points for the next 5 years.
I would not trade Foligno, I don't see the upside in getting rid of him at all. Even as a 30-40 point guy doing what he does he has decent value not easily replaced.
196 hits, 15 goals, 47 points... 43 ES points. Guess which forwards had one less 42 ES points? Eric Staal, Daniel Sedin, Alex Ovechkin, Brad Richards, Joe Pavelski, Toews and Drew Stafford. Some guys missed some time and I am not saying Foligno is as good as they are but so many Sens fans act like Foligno is a dime a dozen player... he isn't at all.
I would do something around Foligno for Savard (piecey-parts to make it balance) but most CBJ posters value Savard too much to agree with me.
Count me among the "most". I like Foligno, but not that much - especially considering how Savard is looking like something of an imminent badass. I also don't want to risk any current blueline depth that isn't Marc Methot.
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why is a 3rd line winger like foligno worth what many have mentioned as a first? or a first plus mcnabb?
whats more is why are buffalo fans so hell bent on getting him? We have the better Foligno and if ottawa fans have a 1st rounder-love for older bro then cool let them keep him...
why is a 3rd line winger like foligno worth what many have mentioned as a first? or a first plus mcnabb?
whats more is why are buffalo fans so hell bent on getting him? We have the better Foligno and if ottawa fans have a 1st rounder-love for older bro then cool let them keep him...
3rd liner like foligno...so much wrong with what you're saying. So much lack of knowledge on your part.
Fun Knowledge facts for you:
-There are 3 players on a first line.
-There are 30 teams.
-top lines are usually reserved for offensive guys...generally speaking, the more offensive you are, the higher up the depth chart you are.
Still following?
-Nick foligno is 110th in forward points.
Now you're going to need to have basic 4th grade math skills to follow.
Top 90 forwards= top line per team...right? 3 top forwards and 30 teams...3x30=90.
91-180= 2nd liners offensively speaking. nick foligno is 110. 180-45=135...135= average second liner offensively.
So using the simple math you learned in grade 4, you see that foligno is an above average second liner offensively when compared to the rest of the league.
Nick Foligno was tied for 47th in even strength scoring for forwards (would have been 2nd on the Sabres, 1 point behind your beloved Pominville). That's 1st line 5-on-5 production. He was also 111th in total even strength ice time for forwards. 1st line production with 2nd line ice time. He is certainly worth a hell of a lot more than a late 1st rounder, especially being a young guy himself.
3rd liner like foligno...so much wrong with what you're saying. So much lack of knowledge on your part.
Fun Knowledge facts for you:
-There are 3 players on a first line.
-There are 30 teams.
-top lines are usually reserved for offensive guys...generally speaking, the more offensive you are, the higher up the depth chart you are.
Still following?
-Nick foligno is 110th in forward points.
Now you're going to need to have basic 4th grade math skills to follow.
Top 90 forwards= top line per team...right? 3 top forwards and 30 teams...3x30=90.
91-180= 2nd liners offensively speaking. nick foligno is 110. 180-45=135...135= average second liner offensively.
So using the simple math you learned in grade 4, you see that foligno is an above average second liner offensively when compared to the rest of the league.
Yay! knowledge is fun, right!?
The obvious question, though, is whether or not that's sustainable. If he continues that kind of performance next year, then I'll hail him as the second liner he obviously will be. But as is he still looks to me like a very high-quality third-liner who had a career year.
Not that that's a bad thing; it's just that there's a limit on what I'd give up to get him - and if I had him already, I wouldn't trade him.
(Believe me, I know this sort of argument very well. Ask anybody in the CBJ forums about what happens if you dare suggest that RJ Umberger is a third-liner when I'm around. )
The obvious question, though, is whether or not that's sustainable. If he continues that kind of performance next year, then I'll hail him as the second liner he obviously will be. But as is he still looks to me like a very high-quality third-liner who had a career year.
Not that that's a bad thing; it's just that there's a limit on what I'd give up to get him - and if I had him already, I wouldn't trade him.
(Believe me, I know this sort of argument very well. Ask anybody in the CBJ forums about what happens if you dare suggest that RJ Umberger is a third-liner when I'm around. )
This is what's wrong with HF and hockey ''experts'' in general. Instead of analyzing objectively whether a player gets it done or not, they go by how it ''looks''. Who cares if a player is a bad skater, if he plays a grinder-type game, etc. Does he put the puck in the net or not?
Foligno is supposedly a bad playmaker who doesn't use his linemates. Heard it countless times on the Sens board. But he put up a good amount of assists this season.
As for it being a career year... It's not like he's 32 and randomly put up this season. He's 24 and trending upwards, why would he suddenly decline?
He was also the Sens 3rd leading scorer last year, 2nd highest forward behind Spezza who wasn't his linemate. The point total may not seem so high but all the Sens had a bad year in 2010-11.
The obvious question, though, is whether or not that's sustainable. If he continues that kind of performance next year, then I'll hail him as the second liner he obviously will be. But as is he still looks to me like a very high-quality third-liner who had a career year.
Not that that's a bad thing; it's just that there's a limit on what I'd give up to get him - and if I had him already, I wouldn't trade him.
(Believe me, I know this sort of argument very well. Ask anybody in the CBJ forums about what happens if you dare suggest that RJ Umberger is a third-liner when I'm around. )
He doesn't get first line PP duty and has been used on the 3rd line throughout the season while we were testing chemistry. We also had no 2nd line centre for a significant portion of the season.
Give him a full season with Turris and Alfie (or another good RW) and he's getting 45 points a year without a problem.
3rd liner like foligno...so much wrong with what you're saying. So much lack of knowledge on your part.
Fun Knowledge facts for you:
-There are 3 players on a first line.
-There are 30 teams.
-top lines are usually reserved for offensive guys...generally speaking, the more offensive you are, the higher up the depth chart you are.
Still following?
-Nick foligno is 110th in forward points.
Now you're going to need to have basic 4th grade math skills to follow.
Top 90 forwards= top line per team...right? 3 top forwards and 30 teams...3x30=90.
91-180= 2nd liners offensively speaking. nick foligno is 110. 180-45=135...135= average second liner offensively.
So using the simple math you learned in grade 4, you see that foligno is an above average second liner offensively when compared to the rest of the league.
Yay! knowledge is fun, right!?
It boggles my mind how so many people on here have a problem understanding this. Not to mention he didn't exactly play with offensive dynamos for the most part, and didn't have tons of PP time (occasional 2nd unit maybe), and all else he brings to the table (grit, toughness, net drive, size, 2-way play, etc), he has a lot more value than posters here realize.
Foligno can put up 60 points if given the opportunity.
Before the Sens acquired Turris, Foligno was centering the 2nd line and was playing great. Now that he's back on the 2nd line, we are seein yet another resurgence.
Im not saying he's worth 2 firsts, but to be worthwhile for the Sens , we would need either the 12th and a defender, or Ennis (where we would add a prospect).
It boggles my mind how so many people on here have a problem understanding this. Not to mention he didn't exactly play with offensive dynamos for the most part, and didn't have tons of PP time (occasional 2nd unit maybe), and all else he brings to the table (grit, toughness, net drive, size, 2-way play, etc), he has a lot more value than posters here realize.
110th in scoring in 11/12.
179th in scoring in 10/11.
225th in scoring in 09/10.
188th in scoring in 08/09.
There is a reason that Nick hasn't gotten a lot of PP time. He's a borderline 2nd/3rd line guy that has limited offensive skills and is more of a "worker" than a "skill" guy.
Players in that mold rarely have 1 round+ trade value.
110th in scoring in 11/12.
179th in scoring in 10/11.
225th in scoring in 09/10.
188th in scoring in 08/09.
There is a reason that Nick hasn't gotten a lot of PP time. He's a borderline 2nd/3rd line guy that has limited offensive skills and is more of a "worker" than a "skill" guy.
Players in that mold rarely have 1 round+ trade value.
Have you not read any posts in the thread? 110th is a top tier 2nd liner. Not to mention his 1st line 5-on-5 production. Foligno hasn't had any PP time cause the coach is an idiot, and like you think he is a grinder that can't produce because of his style.
This is what's wrong with HF and hockey ''experts'' in general. Instead of analyzing objectively whether a player gets it done or not, they go by how it ''looks''. Who cares if a player is a bad skater, if he plays a grinder-type game, etc. Does he put the puck in the net or not?
Foligno is supposedly a bad playmaker who doesn't use his linemates. Heard it countless times on the Sens board. But he put up a good amount of assists this season.
As for it being a career year... It's not like he's 32 and randomly put up this season. He's 24 and trending upwards, why would he suddenly decline?
He was also the Sens 3rd leading scorer last year, 2nd highest forward behind Spezza who wasn't his linemate. The point total may not seem so high but all the Sens had a bad year in 2010-11.
I should point out that by no means do I expect him to decline. The age and past trends are certainly in his favor. But youngsters have this sort of thing happen all the time and it's not always a guarantee of future performance - for a recent example in the same age bracket, see Nikolai Kulemin. (EDIT: That's strictly based on stats, not on actual performance and circumstance similarities. Please do not start ranting about how it's totally not the same and how dare I compare a Sen to a Leaf. )
I'd be more cautiously optimistic rather than pessimistic. It's just that there seems to be a lot of unbridled optimism here, which is potentially misplaced. (I hope it isn't - I want to see him succeed, and think he's likely to - but there's that chance.)
Honestly, I empathize a whole hell of a lot with the "but he doesn't look top-6, so screw the stats, he's not top-6" argument. See previous parenthetical comment re: RJ Umberger. It's just that RJ has more history of confounding the experts than Nick.
110th in scoring in 11/12.
179th in scoring in 10/11.
225th in scoring in 09/10.
188th in scoring in 08/09.
There is a reason that Nick hasn't gotten a lot of PP time. He's a borderline 2nd/3rd line guy that has limited offensive skills and is more of a "worker" than a "skill" guy.
Players in that mold rarely have 1 round+ trade value.
So the last 2 years, he's been top 180 (i.e. a 2nd liner on any team in the NHL), while bringing everything else he brings, while playing with less than stellar linemates, and limited PP time.
He hasn't gotten a lot of PP time, because he's behind guys like Spezza, Alfie, Michalek, Turris, Fisher (before he was traded), Kovalev (last year), etc on the depth chart for PP time. Even a guy like Neil, who spends a lot of time in front of the net on the PP. Plus he plays a lot (for his role on the depth chart) on ES and PK. All this not even mentioning that without even looking at the numbers, I know the Sens are among the lowest teams in the league in terms of PP time/game.
