When it is clear the Swedish sensation is nowhere near National legend Nicklas Lidstrom, in terms of defensive play, Karlsson actually play a similar playing style.
Before anyone tries to crucify me, having watched Karlsson for the past 3 years, he has changed a lot. The last two years, Cory Clouston allowed him to skate up the ice way too often. Though, it is his strenght being so fast and shifty, he should have never had so much freedom offensively.
Fortunately, with Paul Maclean, Karlsson plays closer to his blueline. He doesn't play as a fourth forward but is comparative to quaterbacks in football, who can eventually rush up the ice. His pinches are calculated, as Maclean system is a patient offensive system. His defensive game relies on his speed and stellar positional play and stick play, as he can separate a 280 pound player from the puck (Byfuglien). He wont ever destroy a guy by a bone crushing hit but he can pin some guys as he lays the shoulder and accelerate to steal the puck in the boards. Although he did not play a lot on the PK, this year, however, Greg Carvel, one of the best Pk coaches has said he was a tremendous PK player. His PK minutes have been replaced by the 1-2 minutes of defending the lead at the end of close games, where he has demonstrated to be really effective.
Karlsson is not an offenseman because when he does not play solid defense, he does not rack points (proof : this past 5 games, he played like **** and he only had 2 pts). His real defensive game is his elite ability to use his speed, skills, positional play to separate the man from the puck. And it's actually his defensive game that allows his to be so offensively dominant.
King K is not solely a good PP player but is also a great ES player (about 50 pts)
In summary, I believe that Karlsson, not being a conventional Dman, should win the Norris trophy, as being the best transitional defenseman in the new and fast NHL game.
Are you that clueless? Obviously Karlsson is the best offensive D of them all but it doesn't change the fact over the season he received 105.5 more PP minutes than Chara. That is 50% more. Use your brain and think about that in regards to his point lead.
Karlsson would still have a 17 point lead over Chara IF you extrapolated Chara's power play point totals to match the same amount of time Karlsson has played on the PP. A 17 point lead. Think about that kind of a lead in todays NHL for a second. If you extrapolated Chara's point totals to match Karlsson's even strength time and PP time he would have 64 points. A 14 point lead. Do you even comprehend how big of a lead that still is in todays NHL? This is still with a bunch of hypothetical situations that would never in hell have a chance of occurring in real life and Karlsson would still have a 14 point lead over Chara. It's just getting ridiculous how much some of you are trying to reach to diminish Karlsson's season. Absolutely asinine if you ask me.
By the way: a 14 point lead for the highest point getting defenseman hasn't happened since the shortened 94-95 season. The last full season for it to happen was in the 91-92 season. Give me a break.
The Norris is awarded to the "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position". This is a vague definition. My interpretation is that "all-round" means you need to consider the player's total impact in all game situations.
Therefore, it would be wrong to award the Norris to Karlsson because he's clearly the best offensive defenseman in the league. If you were to compare Karlsson to Chara, the proper way to analyze this is to look at the incremental number of goals Karlsson created through his offensive ability, less the incremental number of goals Chara saved through his defensive ability.
Let's say that Karlsson directly contributed to 17 more goals than Chara at ES, and 10 more goals on the PP. Let's say Chara saved 10 goals relative to Karlsson at ES, and 10 goals relative to Karlsson on the PK. Overall, Karlsson was the better all-round defenseman because he contributed more than Chara, even though he made essentially zero contributions on the penalty kill.
Of course, you could argue that Chara that Chara saved his team 15 ES goals and 15 PK goals relative to Karlsson. In that case, Chara would deserve the Norris, because the value of his defense exceeds the value of Karlsson's offense. The point is, someone should do an analysis and see if Karlsson's offense is so dominant that it more than offset's Chara's superior defense.
Based on my interpretation, there's no requirement that a Norris winner has to play on the penalty kill. Of course, most Norris trophy winners are good at all aspects of hockey; Lidstrom, Bourque, Potvin, etc were dominant because they scored at ES and on the PP, and shut down opponents at ES and on the PK. However, occasionally a defenseman with an "unbalanced" skill set emerges as the winner. I don't recall anybody complaining that Rod Langway should give back his consecutive Norris trophies despite virtually never playing on the powerplay.
We've seen five forward power-play units used successfully and many teams routinely use four forwards. So, I think it's clear that defensemen aren't an essential part of the power-play.
Defensemen, however, are an essential part of the penalty kill. No coach would seriously consider using five forwards in a shorthanded situation. And I think most would argue that the greatest challenge a defenseman faces is killing off a penalty. That's why it's almost always the team's top defenseman, those who play the most minutes, that are called upon to skate 4 on 5.
I think it's significant therefore that in 59 years the Norris has never been awarded to a defenseman who didn't kill penalties.
Last edited by misterjaggers: 04-08-2012 at 02:14 PM.
Karlsson would still have a 17 point lead over Chara IF you extrapolated Chara's power play point totals to match the same amount of time Karlsson has played on the PP. A 17 point lead. Think about that kind of a lead in todays NHL for a second. If you extrapolated Chara's point totals to match Karlsson's even strength time and PP time he would have 64 points. A 14 point lead. Do you even comprehend how big of a lead that still is in todays NHL? This is still with a bunch of hypothetical situations that would never in hell have a chance of occurring in real life and Karlsson would still have a 14 point lead over Chara. It's just getting ridiculous how much some of you are trying to reach to diminish Karlsson's season. Absolutely asinine if you ask me.
By the way: a 14 point lead for the highest point getting defenseman hasn't happened since the shortened 94-95 season. The last full season for it to happen was in the 91-92 season. Give me a break.
Use your brain for a second and think about that.
Yes I did the calculations myself in the other thread. 14 point lead not considering the fact Karlsson gets way more offensive zone starts.
Nowhere did I say that wasn't a big lead did I? In fact I said myself that Karlsson was the best offensive D-man. People in the thread were continually mentioning the 25 point lead and I was just bringing them back down a level.
I used logic and statistics to make a point and you came in the thread with your post acting like it was absurd what I was doing.
Read what you wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shootingrubber
Really guys? Now you're trying to argue what could have been if Chara was played differently? You're trying to diminish Karlsson's point lead amongst other defensemen saying that it's not as big as it seems?
What a joke. Give me a break
It's ridiculous... Pointing out that Karlsson had almost 53 full powerplays of ice time more than Chara is a joke? Give your head a shake.
Last edited by Beyonder91: 04-08-2012 at 03:24 PM.
We've seen five forward power-play units used successfully and many teams routinely use four forwards. So, I think it's clear that defensemen aren't an essential part of the power-play.
I disagree. The vast majority of teams in NHL history have used at least one defenseman on the power play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
Defensemen, however, are an essential part of the penalty kill. No coach would seriously consider using five forwards in a shorthanded situation. And I think most would argue that the greatest challenge a defenseman faces is killing off a penalty. That's why it's almost always the team's top defenseman, those who play the most minutes, that are called upon to skate 4 on 5.
I think it's significant therefore that in 59 years the Norris has never been awarded to a defenseman who didn't kill penalties.
Take a look at the thread that I created two years ago- link
We have official ice time stats going back to 1998; every Norris winner has placed 50th or higher in the NHL in short-handed ice time.
Some have calculated estimated ice time going back to 1968 (based on a complex formula that is highly accurate when cross-tested against seasons when ice time was recorded). Only three defensemen have ranked lower than 50th, and all of them were in the top seventy: Larry Robinson in 1977 (an outstanding penalty killer who, during the particular season, played far less on the PK than teammates Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe), and Paul Coffey in 1985 and 1995 (dominant offense).
Thus, over the past 43 years, Norris trophy winners have played a large amount on the penalty kill. If Karlsson wins, he would have played the least amount on the penalty kill by a staggering margin.
That being said, I don't believe there's a requirement for Norris winners to play on the PK. Historically, the best defensemen have almost always played extensively on the PK, but a defenseman with overwhelming offense could, in theory, contribute enough to his team that he exceeds the contribution made by other defenseman. I think that Karlsson might have done so, but I haven't analyzed this in enough depth to make my decision yet.
why is weber even in the running over someone say like suter?
because more people talk about weber.
weber has also been the better defenseman all around.. there was a point when suter was playing better than weber.. but now that the season has came to an end, as a preds fan that has watched every game start to finish, weber has been the better defenseman and its not really that close. suter went into a "coast mode" it seemed towards the final stretch. and was continually beat time and time again.. weber is just a beast and i suspect you will see weber laying some heavy, punishing checks on detroit starting wednesday...
Did mike green win the Norris when he scored 31 goals as a defenseman? Nope offense is not the measure of the best defenseman and I just don't see karlsson winning it
Did mike green win the Norris when he scored 31 goals as a defenseman? Nope offense is not the measure of the best defenseman and I just don't see karlsson winning it
It's posts like these that give us Sens fans a Karlsson-loving reputation because we have to point out how stupid of a comment this is time and time again.
The worst part is you probably don't know what you said that was so wrong
Did mike green win the Norris when he scored 31 goals as a defenseman? Nope offense is not the measure of the best defenseman and I just don't see karlsson winning it
Same can be said about a stay at home defensemen. Except Green got votes, and every year stay at home defensemen come no where near to consideration.
It's about ability to play both ends and Karlsson has been among the best this year.
Same can be said about a stay at home defensemen. Except Green got votes, and every year stay at home defensemen come no where near to consideration.
It's about ability to play both ends and Karlsson has been among the best this year.
And its posts like these that bring out those of us pointing out that Karlsson hasn't been close to Weber, Chara, McDonagh, Pietrangelo, Suter, or Lidstrom defensively this year.
Karlsson is heads and shoulders above others offensively.
He does it with about two (2) minutes of extra playing time at ES and PP compared to his competition. He also gets about 10% more offensive zone starts. He also doesn't match up against top lines at home.
So, in summary, while Karlsson has a huge points lead, he has gotten about an extra 160 minutes of productive ice time against weaker competition while starting in the offensive zone more than other Norris contenders.
That is before mentioning his lack of penalty killing this season, something every Norris winner has done.
Sources: behindthenet.ca, timeonice.com, and nhl.com
Last edited by bluemandan: 04-08-2012 at 06:46 PM.
Reason: protecting myself from grammar nazis (oh crap, forgot to capitalize! RUN!)
And its posts like these that bring out those of us pointing out that Karlsson hasn't been close to Weber, Chara, McDonagh, Pietrangelo, Suter, or Lidstrom defensively this year.
Karlsson is heads and shoulders above others offensively.
He does it with about two (2) minutes of extra playing time at ES and PP compared to his competition. He also gets about 10% more offensive zone starts. He also doesn't match up against top lines at home.
So, in summary, while Karlsson has a huge points lead, he has gotten about an extra 160 minutes of productive ice time against weaker competition while starting in the offensive zone more than other Norris contenders.
That is before mentioning his lack of penalty killing this season, something every Norris winner has done.
Sources: behindthenet.ca, timeonice.com, and nhl.com
No where did i say Karlsson was any where near those guys defensively. But thanks for trying.
He is head and shoulders above everyone other defensemen offensively. While his denfensive game isnt on the level of other contenders, it shouldn't and won't take away from his offensive game. You can throw out the definition of the norris all you want. It's not about how you interpret the wording, cause everyone has a different interpretation. It's about how it has been applied. And before you say I'm sayin Karlsson will win, I am not saying he will win.
Did mike green win the Norris when he scored 31 goals as a defenseman? Nope offense is not the measure of the best defenseman and I just don't see karlsson winning it
Greens season wasnt even CLOSE to Karlssons historically. Not even in the same sport, let alone ballpark.
No where did i say Karlsson was any where near those guys defensively. But thanks for trying.
He is head and shoulders above everyone other defensemen offensively. While his denfensive game isnt on the level of other contenders, it shouldn't and won't take away from his offensive game. You can throw out the definition of the norris all you want. It's not about how you interpret the wording, cause everyone has a different interpretation. It's about how it has been applied. And before you say I'm sayin Karlsson will win, I am not saying he will win.
His lack of defensive game doesn't take away from his offense. It takes away from his Norris chances.
And here is the quote from you:
Quote:
It's about ability to play both ends and Karlsson has been among the best this year.
So when you said that Karlsson has been among the best this year in play at both ends, I took it to mean that he has been among the best in the offensive zone (true) and among the best in the defensive zone (untrue). You know, both ends. So actually, when you said that Karlsson was among the best at both ends you were really saying that Karlsson is among the best offensively and among the best defensively. Perhaps you mis-typed?
And its posts like these that bring out those of us pointing out that Karlsson hasn't been close to Weber, Chara, McDonagh, Pietrangelo, Suter, or Lidstrom defensively this year.
Karlsson is heads and shoulders above others offensively.
He does it with about two (2) minutes of extra playing time at ES and PP compared to his competition. He also gets about 10% more offensive zone starts. He also doesn't match up against top lines at home.
So, in summary, while Karlsson has a huge points lead, he has gotten about an extra 160 minutes of productive ice time against weaker competition while starting in the offensive zone more than other Norris contenders.
That is before mentioning his lack of penalty killing this season, something every Norris winner has done.
Sources: behindthenet.ca, timeonice.com, and nhl.com
Yes he does. He is tasked with shutting down the top players every night, and does a pretty damn good job at it. If you wanna talk about sheltered minutes, look at the difference in Pietrangelos numbers at home and on the road. Hell, Karlsson is more steady than Chara or Weber when it comes to home vs road.
It's just a few (same) people arguing about Karlsson's deficiencies. Ignoring them is probably the best solution unless you have way too much time on your hands to discuss what has already been discussed a billion times already.
Karlsson would still have a 17 point lead over Chara IF you extrapolated Chara's power play point totals to match the same amount of time Karlsson has played on the PP. A 17 point lead. Think about that kind of a lead in todays NHL for a second. If you extrapolated Chara's point totals to match Karlsson's even strength time and PP time he would have 64 points. A 14 point lead. Do you even comprehend how big of a lead that still is in todays NHL? This is still with a bunch of hypothetical situations that would never in hell have a chance of occurring in real life and Karlsson would still have a 14 point lead over Chara. It's just getting ridiculous how much some of you are trying to reach to diminish Karlsson's season. Absolutely asinine if you ask me. 
