Well the reason I would think he can do 80-90 regularly is he is an incredibly young player still visibly improving all the time. 78 in 81 games for a 21 year old undersized defenseman? Top 10 in scoring? 3rd in NHL in assists? If he was 23 or 24 and fully filled out and doing this it would be different but to do it this year.... Is astonishing. Thinking he can have sustained production 10-15% higher doesn't seem unreasonably to me.
Letang is awesome as well... Far better defensively and almost as good offensively. If he can get healthy and has Crosby and Malkin healthy for a year he could get a PPG or maybe a bit more than that.
Both will likely be Norris contenders or winners for years...
I'm not so sure that filling out is going to help him offensively, defensively yes it will and we have seen plenty of Dmen flater after great 1st impressions as well.
I think Karlsson is going to ahve a great career it's just the point expectations from some seem highly improbable given the current rules and switching to a more balanced schedule as well.
I'm not so sure that filling out is going to help him offensively, defensively yes it will and we have seen plenty of Dmen flater after great 1st impressions as well.
I think Karlsson is going to ahve a great career it's just the point expectations from some seem highly improbable given the current rules and switching to a more balanced schedule as well.
Time will tell.
Honestly, I expect nothing less from you because if Karlsson does indeed continue playing the way he is and garnering a PPG, it will prove that it hasn't been about such a thing not being possible in today's "superior NHL". It will show it's just because there hasn't been anyone capable of doing it since the big guys from the 80's and 90's retired.
And how getting stronger is not going to help a player offensively...well...that's just ridiculous.
How is being even harder to slow down not going to benefit him?
Honestly, I expect nothing less from you because if Karlsson does indeed continue playing the way he is and garnering a PPG, it will prove that it hasn't been about such a thing not being possible in today's "superior NHL". It will show it's just because there hasn't been anyone capable of doing it since the big guys from the 80's and 90's retired.
And how getting stronger is not going to help a player offensively...well...that's just ridiculous.
How is being even harder to slow down not going to benefit him?
Aren't we talking about Karlsson here a finesse Dman and not a power forward?
Also you are the only guy calling it superior, I have always asserted that the game is different from decade to decade but as usual you are putting words in my mouth to make your counter argument look better.
But as always 1 player doing something to help your argument makes it a trend too right?
Karlsson had a great offensive season this year and is ahead of mike Green at the same stage of their careers, in terms of being a better overall dman.
But lets wait a bit before we anoint him the "next one" which is what you like to do when we talk about a guy with 5 plus superstar years under his belt in the Sid threads.
I want to see him keep it up, but, at a glance, he looks to be about as deadly as Leetch (Leetch was incredibly deadly for a D) and somewhat less than Coffey.
Aren't we talking about Karlsson here a finesse Dman and not a power forward?
Also you are the only guy calling it superior, I have always asserted that the game is different from decade to decade but as usual you are putting words in my mouth to make your counter argument look better.
But as always 1 player doing something to help your argument makes it a trend too right?
Karlsson had a great offensive season this year and is ahead of mike Green at the same stage of their careers, in terms of being a better overall dman.
But lets wait a bit before we anoint him the "next one" which is what you like to do when we talk about a guy with 5 plus superstar years under his belt in the Sid threads.
Oh I agree, lets wait and see for sure.
As far as trending...it only takes one guy on one team to have success for everyone else to start scrambling to find or let their current guys do the same.
This is NOT Mike Green we're talking about here. Karlsson is already a more complete player than Green is and Ottawa doesn't play any where close to the same style of open game the Caps did when Green was piling on the points.
I saw Letang mentioned and I'm sorry but he is not an elite level offensive D-man. He is however a good compliment to the immense talent the Pens have up the middle.
Oh I agree, lets wait and see for sure.
As far as trending...it only takes one guy on one team to have success for everyone else to start scrambling to find or let their current guys do the same.
This is NOT Mike Green we're talking about here. Karlsson is already a more complete player than Green is and Ottawa doesn't play any where close to the same style of open game the Caps did when Green was piling on the points.
I saw Letang mentioned and I'm sorry but he is not an elite level offensive D-man. He is however a good compliment to the immense talent the Pens have up the middle.
Can Karlsson be a trendsetter though? He is extremely unique. He is probably the quickest player in the NHL over shorter distances Or getting going skating and his longer distance skating is among the best... Plus he has uncanny offensive instincts, amazing stick handling and amazing ability to use his stick to break up plays. He has a very hard and accurate shot.
So he could start a "trend" except where do you get a defenseman who has those qualities? The speed is the killer aspect. You can get a guy with the hockey sense, the good shot but without the insane speed it doesn't work. Did Coffey set a trend? Not really, who could play like he did? Housley, Bourque, Coffey, MacInnis, Chelios, Leetch all were great Offensive D-men who came upon their offense quite differently. Or Larry Murphy who was slow but scored a lot of points.
Hard, hard to make a trend. Undersized offensive defenseman? Ok Timonen one of the better ones of the last decade, he plays not like Karlsson. Or a trend toward big, tall defenseman, with all the success Chara has had... Well there is Myers, but could he be any more different them Chara?
So if Karlsson sets a trend what will it be? Get slender fast defense men that get rocked defensively because they don't have the hockey sense to be able to defend and mitigate their size disadvantage? Or will see super fast small defenseman that can't shoot or make good offensive plays but can skoot all over the ice in the blink of an eye?
Trends happen I guess but really is Mario a trend? Was Lafleur a trend? Hasek a trend? Gretzky? Potvin? MacInnis? Lidstrom? Theo Fleury? Using a bunch of HHOFers, karlsson is not in their class but he is as unique. You can't set a trend (at least one that actually work for others) with such a unique player. You can set a trend for team toughness, bruins, Flyers in 70's ducks in 06. Or for a defensive systems team like the 90's Stars and Devils... Hard to set a trend as a single unique player. I am sure scouts keep looking in Eastern Europe for a tough 6'10" defenseman... Good luck to them!!!
Not trying to pimp Karlsson with all these great names but he just is able to run the offense and defense in a unique way. Not transferable. Well I guess if Karlsson does become truly great it could set a trend of supremely fast and offensively gifted slender teens being made defensemen instead of centers in their teenage development years in midget and junior by the players themselves and the coaches... Only useful trend from Karlsson I can see (again if he becomes truly great for many seasons)
Can Karlsson be a trendsetter though? He is extremely unique. He is probably the quickest player in the NHL over shorter distances Or getting going skating and his longer distance skating is among the best... Plus he has uncanny offensive instincts, amazing stick handling and amazing ability to use his stick to break up plays. He has a very hard and accurate shot.
So he could start a "trend" except where do you get a defenseman who has those qualities? The speed is the killer aspect. You can get a guy with the hockey sense, the good shot but without the insane speed it doesn't work. Did Coffey set a trend? Not really, who could play like he did? Housley, Bourque, Coffey, MacInnis, Chelios, Leetch all were great Offensive D-men who came upon their offense quite differently. Or Larry Murphy who was slow but scored a lot of points.
Hard, hard to make a trend. Undersized offensive defenseman? Ok Timonen one of the better ones of the last decade, he plays not like Karlsson. Or a trend toward big, tall defenseman, with all the success Chara has had... Well there is Myers, but could he be any more different them Chara?
So if Karlsson sets a trend what will it be? Get slender fast defense men that get rocked defensively because they don't have the hockey sense to be able to defend and mitigate their size disadvantage? Or will see super fast small defenseman that can't shoot or make good offensive plays but can skoot all over the ice in the blink of an eye?
Trends happen I guess but really is Mario a trend? Was Lafleur a trend? Hasek a trend? Gretzky? Potvin? MacInnis? Lidstrom? Theo Fleury? Using a bunch of HHOFers, karlsson is not in their class but he is as unique. You can't set a trend (at least one that actually work for others) with such a unique player. You can set a trend for team toughness, bruins, Flyers in 70's ducks in 06. Or for a defensive systems team like the 90's Stars and Devils... Hard to set a trend as a single unique player. I am sure scouts keep looking in Eastern Europe for a tough 6'10" defenseman... Good luck to them!!!
Not trying to pimp Karlsson with all these great names but he just is able to run the offense and defense in a unique way. Not transferable. Well I guess if Karlsson does become truly great it could set a trend of supremely fast and offensively gifted slender teens being made defensemen instead of centers in their teenage development years in midget and junior by the players themselves and the coaches... Only useful trend from Karlsson I can see (again if he becomes truly great for many seasons)
There hasn't been a total package like Orr in the league ever and that didn't stop teams from trending him.
It's not just about how good the player in question is, it's about letting d-men have more freedom and even being encouraged to jump up more.
Sometimes I wonder if removing the redline was actually a bane to rushing D-men. Getting caught went up another 25 feet. Sure, it makes for longer passes out of the zone but it takes away from their skating.
Ever noticed how fast the attacking team clears the zone, especially the D-men, and sets up their neutral zone defense the second the defending team gets possession
Kinda like when they tried removing the tag up offside for a bit, D-men suddenly weren't handling the puck as much and we saw a decline in them.
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 04-09-2012 at 10:31 PM.
Nevertheless, staying healthy is a skill. And Byfuglien has had a great season anyhow (otherwise he wouldn't be the comparison player for Karlsson here).
In fact, the comparison is very fair (by any fair definition of "fair") - it just doesn't benefit Byfuglien in this instance.
I really never quite got the staying healthy is a skill thing, there is alot of luck involved in that, especially today.
Also throw in the scoring being higher in the East than in the West and guys like Letang and Pronger missing time as well, his dominance has a bit of luck involved in it as well.
A great season to be sure but would it be less great if Buff and Letang both stayed healthy and scored 65ish points?
I really never quite got the staying healthy is a skill thing, there is alot of luck involved in that, especially today.
There's a lot of luck in everything involved in hockey.
Some players have shown a consistent ability to stay healthy. That's not to say that they won't get a freak accident, but who would you rather have going into a season?
I really never quite got the staying healthy is a skill thing, there is alot of luck involved in that, especially today.
Also throw in the scoring being higher in the East than in the West and guys like Letang and Pronger missing time as well, his dominance has a bit of luck involved in it as well.
A great season to be sure but would it be less great if Buff and Letang both stayed healthy and scored 65ish points?
Staying healthy is a skill thing. Watch the video of the Trent McCleary injury.
There's a lot of luck in everything involved in hockey.
Some players have shown a consistent ability to stay healthy. That's not to say that they won't get a freak accident, but who would you rather have going into a season?
Depends on the makeup of my team and conference I played in but lets say that all teams played an even schedule, something I hope they live up to, then sure he's in the top 5 but I can think of 3 guys I'd rather have had last season, Weber, chara, Pitro and heck even Suter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958
Staying healthy is a skill thing. Watch the video of the Trent McCleary injury.
Proper shot blocking technique is head towards the boards, skates to the middle of the ice. If followed puck deflects of McCleary's legs.
Proper body positioning would mitigate many injuries.
Sure interesting stuff but generally staying healthy has a huge element of luck involved in it as well but as I recall you don't believe in luck do you?
The guy has 1 good year and he's great? He doesn't even play on the PK and should not even be on the Norris ballot. Lidstrom played better this season than Karlsson. Look at the Wings record setting win streak. Lidstrom plays on the PK, plays defense, and is a much better team player.
Depends on the makeup of my team and conference I played in but lets say that all teams played an even schedule, something I hope they live up to, then sure he's in the top 5 but I can think of 3 guys I'd rather have had last season, Weber, chara, Pitro and heck even Suter
You didn't answer the question that I asked, but you somehow chose a different one. I'll state it again:
Given that you can't predict freak accidents, would you rather cast your lot going into a season with a player who has consistently shown the ability to stay in the lineup, or someone who hasn't?
You didn't answer the question that I asked, but you somehow chose a different one. I'll state it again:
Given that you can't predict freak accidents, would you rather cast your lot going into a season with a player who has consistently shown the ability to stay in the lineup, or someone who hasn't?
It's a repeatable skill for the most part.
Okay I understand your question now but still not sure to which specific players its is referring to in this thread besides Karlsson.
Only Pronger form the 3 guys I refereed to (Letang and Buff) had any history of injuries going into this year.
As to calling it a skill, we will ahve to agree to disagree on that one as there is more luck involved than skill IMO.
Edit: this is also Karlsson's first injury free year in his 1st 2 years he has missed some time with several slight injuries. so he has missed 5,7 then 1 game in his 1st 3 seasons. I'm going to call it luck rather than any skill.
I think Karlsson is better than Green was (or is) defensively.
Isn't that like using "He's a better skater than Luc Robitaille as an argument?" Sure its true, but its not saying much. (He in this case is generic)
Still, Karlsson displays some incredibly impressive talent, however I remember reading a breakdown of his assists this season and IIRC the article pointed out that he had something like twice as many secondary assists at home as on the road. Sure players may play better at home but that reeks of the stat guys padding his numbers.
Depends on the makeup of my team and conference I played in but lets say that all teams played an even schedule, something I hope they live up to, then sure he's in the top 5 but I can think of 3 guys I'd rather have had last season, Weber, chara, Pitro and heck even Suter
Sure interesting stuff but generally staying healthy has a huge element of luck involved in it as well but as I recall you don't believe in luck do you?
Observe Nicklas Lidstrom, Martin St. Louis, Jarome Iginla. They manage to stay healthy because they have tremendous on ice awareness, always know who else is on the ice, turn properly so they never lose sight of the puck or the opponents close to them. No luck involved in this. Same elements that make them great hockey players contribute to them staying healthy.
Sure its true, but its not saying much. (He in this case is generic)
