HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

1997-98 Kariya vs. 2011-12 Crosby

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-08-2012, 02:10 PM
  #1
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,304
vCash: 500
1997-98 Kariya vs. 2011-12 Crosby

In 1998, Paul Kariya scored 31 points in 22 games and finished 5th on his (not very good) team in scoring. His teammate Teemu Sellanne won the Rocket that year with 52 goals. The dead-puck era was in full swing.

In 2012, Sidney Crosby scored 37 points in 22 games and finished 9th on his (very good) team in scoring. His teammate Evgeni Malkin won the Art Ross with 109 points.

Gut feeling tells me that Crosby had the better season, as Crosby is widely considered the best player in the game, while Kariya was less so. But looking at the two seasons, I don't see a whole lot to differentiate them. It's not so much that Crosby's doing something common this year, but I really don't think Kariya's short season is quite as well known as it could be.

How do these two short seasons compare?

Johnny Engine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 02:56 PM
  #2
JoeCool16
Registered User
 
JoeCool16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,599
vCash: 1000
I don't have the stats, but I wonder who Kariya played with when he was playing that year? Selanne? That's a much better linemate than Matt Cooke.

Nevertheless, both good feats by very talented players, would have been nice to see what they could have accomplished through a full year, and if the pace held up!

JoeCool16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 03:33 PM
  #3
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,202
vCash: 511
We're currently in the dead puck era, dude. Crosby by a lot.

SidGenoMario is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 03:46 PM
  #4
MadLuke
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,197
vCash: 500
Kariya at the time was more the best left-winger top 5 player in the league kind of player, Crosby is more the best player in the league kind of player.

MadLuke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 03:47 PM
  #5
dan1el
Registered User
 
dan1el's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,693
vCash: 500
This is like comparing Gretzky's 215 point Season to Jagr's 149. Both incredible Seasons, but Crosby's is just miles and miles ahead.

dan1el is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 03:49 PM
  #6
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,202
vCash: 511
^I wouldn't go that far, but Crosby's was better. His PPG is just ridiculous.

SidGenoMario is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 03:51 PM
  #7
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,422
vCash: 500
I do find it funny that as soon as sakic wins the hart in 2001 and iginla wins the art ross in 2002, jagr is no longer the best player in the world. While crosby, who hasnt won an art ross or hart in the past 5 seasons, is still the best player in the world. Double standard.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 04:39 PM
  #8
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
We're currently in the dead puck era, dude. Crosby by a lot.
Maybe. I'm not sure that we'll be describing the current era as "dead puck" in the future, but you are right that the two aren't all that different. I do think that what has been said about the DPE is overstated. Add Kariya's projected 116 point season in 1998 and a couple more 95-point seasons from Lindros, and the era looks very different. On the same token, adding a 130-point Crosby to the last 2 years changes the landscape a great deal as well. However, the perceived dead puck era effect couldn't go unmentioned
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan1el View Post
This is like comparing Gretzky's 215 point Season to Jagr's 149. Both incredible Seasons, but Crosby's is just miles and miles ahead.
A 6 point difference is not a 66 point difference no matter how you torture it. Crosby would have beaten Kariya by 15 points if they both played 82 games at pace in the same year. That's like comparing Malkin and Stamkos, which isn't nearly a good reason to get uppity like that.

Anyway, my take is that offence aside, Crosby's role on his team guarantees he's more valuable on the ice than a player like Kariya. I just think it's quite curious that I hear so little talk about a lost potential 116 point season when Kariya's career is discussed.

Johnny Engine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 04:43 PM
  #9
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,202
vCash: 511
Scoring is identical to how it was in the DPE, I really don't see how this era is any different.

SidGenoMario is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 04:45 PM
  #10
MadLuke
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,197
vCash: 500
I think all Kariya base discussion are made of what if, like no Sutter or other major injury would have happen to him. And Kariya missing the 1998 season and Nagano olympics and his very peak is one of the subjects when we talk about kariya.

MadLuke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 04:45 PM
  #11
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,513
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I do find it funny that as soon as sakic wins the hart in 2001 and iginla wins the art ross in 2002, jagr is no longer the best player in the world. While crosby, who hasnt won an art ross or hart in the past 5 seasons, is still the best player in the world. Double standard.
Maybe people were and are judging by their play on the ice, not awards from the media.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2012, 05:07 PM
  #12
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Maybe people were and are judging by their play on the ice, not awards from the media.
jagr was playing full seasons and among the top scorers, sid on the other hand has missed the past year and a half, and before that was outscored by sedin or malkin in back to back seasons, nice try. Jagr can only be the best when he wins art rosses by big margins, while sid can sit on the sidelines have 20-40 game seasons and be called the best. Then again i cant blame him too much, the talent level has dropped significantly in the past 2 seasons. When you dont have ovechkin as comp anymore and no one on jagr's level, its easier to be called the best.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2012, 01:25 AM
  #13
billybudd
5 Mike Rupps
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,899
vCash: 500
Crosby is significantly more effective now than Kariya was then, though Kariya was the furthest thing from a slouch imaginable.

billybudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2012, 07:35 AM
  #14
agentremax
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
We're currently in the dead puck era, dude. Crosby by a lot.
in 1997-1998, only 2 50G seasons, and this year we have a 60G season.
in 1997-1998, 102 pts was the higest, this year Malkin have 109...

Kariya 17 G in 22 GP is very impressive. I don't pretend Kariya was beter than Crosby, but 1995 to 1999 he was dominant, like Crosby is, today.

Well, Kariya was my favorite player during my childhood, very good player he deserve respect

EDIT: Ohhh and I think he was playing with Rucchin (a 2nd line guy). Crosby have better player around him (letang, malkin, neal, etc... that's certainly help on the PP)

EDIT 2: Selanne have 15g 15A in the 22 Game he played with Kariya (Could have 100 pts in his 73 game). So I don't think the argument "he played with selanne" is valuable, Selanne make him better and HE make selanne beter.


Last edited by agentremax: 04-09-2012 at 07:45 AM.
agentremax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2012, 07:49 AM
  #15
tony d
Thanks for memories
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,717
vCash: 500
Crosby's easily.

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2012, 07:57 AM
  #16
JackFr
Registered User
 
JackFr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,460
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by agentremax View Post
EDIT: Ohhh and I think he was playing with Rucchin (a 2nd line guy). Crosby have better player around him (letang, malkin, neal, etc... that's certainly help on the PP)

EDIT 2: Selanne have 15g 15A in the 22 Game he played with Kariya (Could have 100 pts in his 73 game). So I don't think the argument "he played with selanne" is valuable, Selanne make him better and HE make selanne beter.
These contradict eachother... so Crosby has better linemates even though his actually linemates are third-liners because he has good PP help. Rucchin was a second-liner but undoubtedly better than Crosby's linemates. Add Selanne...

If Crosby was playing with say Kunitz and Kovalchuk that would be comparable.

I love Kariya, he's my favourite player of all-time, but your argument is nonsensical.

JackFr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2012, 09:03 AM
  #17
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,202
vCash: 511
It doesn't matter than Kariya helped Selanne. Selanne still helped Kariya.

SidGenoMario is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2012, 10:31 AM
  #18
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Anyway, my take is that offence aside, Crosby's role on his team guarantees he's more valuable on the ice than a player like Kariya. I just think it's quite curious that I hear so little talk about a lost potential 116 point season when Kariya's career is discussed.
Because it is a dark point in his career. Kariya holding out in the summer of 1997 arguably is what can keep him out of the HHOF. He's close as it is, but take your minds back to that moment. Mario retired, Kariya was in the neighbourhood with a small token of other NHL stars to assume the mantle as the flagship player in the NHL. He certainly had the chance to do it. But no. He held out for more money. Then Selanne had a 50+ goal season without him and the mystique of Kariya being better than him was over.

Basically the 1997-'98 season for Kariya was a disaster. He held out until December, he got injured before the Olympics and he missed out a chance to lead his country to the promised land. He also played 22 games which is too small of a sample size to even bother remembering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I do find it funny that as soon as sakic wins the hart in 2001 and iginla wins the art ross in 2002, jagr is no longer the best player in the world. While crosby, who hasnt won an art ross or hart in the past 5 seasons, is still the best player in the world. Double standard.
In 2001 there was the return of Mario. Jagr was in a slump at that time, he wasn't on pace to win the Art Ross in 2001 but the emergence of Mario helped that. Jagr won the Art Ross by 3 points over Sakic, but most agreed Sakic was the best player in the world that year. Jagr still finished 3rd in MVP voting though. And it wasn't a stretch to say he was still the best.

But in 2001-'02 he made what I think was a mistake and went to Washington, probably the most forgettable part of his career. Maybe he was bitter at not being "the man" in Pittsburgh anymore but the truth is had he stuck it out he still would have been "the man" because Mario was injured most of the year. But the new story was Iginla, Theodore and even Thornton's coming out party. Sakic was still a guy you could have called the best in the NHL because of his season and the Olympics but make no mistake, Jagr was not the best player in the world ever again other than some people considering him to be such in 2005-'06.

Crosby is a little different story. He was on pace to embarass the rest of the NHL in 2011. Then he gets hurt and is out a year. He played 22 games this year and still has the opportunity to prove he is the best player in the world. The way he's played so far this year tells me he hasn't lost a step at all. Its a lot like Mario missing the 1990-'91 season and then coming back. People still knew Mario was the best in the NHL if he were healthy. Others still thought Gretzky was better just like a few might still favour Malkin which is fine.

But truth be told, other than perhaps Malkin, there is no one who can hold a candle to Crosby and that's the difference between him and post 2001 Jagr.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2012, 01:19 PM
  #19
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,793
vCash: 500
I would say Crosby's season is much better considering the circumstances, also wouldn't really consider 37 to 31 to be very close anyway.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2012, 01:30 PM
  #20
Caeldan
Moderator
 
Caeldan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,168
vCash: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by agentremax View Post
in 1997-1998, only 2 50G seasons, and this year we have a 60G season.
in 1997-1998, 102 pts was the higest, this year Malkin have 109...
97-98 14 players PPG or better (min 60 games).
11-12 8 players PPG or better (min 60 games).

Caeldan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2012, 01:37 PM
  #21
FDBluth
Registered User
 
FDBluth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kelowna, BC
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 9,818
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
A 6 point difference is not a 66 point difference no matter how you torture it. Crosby would have beaten Kariya by 15 points if they both played 82 games at pace in the same year. That's like comparing Malkin and Stamkos, which isn't nearly a good reason to get uppity like that.
(37/22)*82 =139
(31/22)*82= 116

23 point difference. Sid would be outscoring him by a 20% margin. That's fairly big. Of course, a 22 game sample size isn't really big enough to be making this kind of comparison anyway.

FDBluth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.