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Old
04-09-2012, 09:20 AM
  #101
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There's no point arguing about Parise, he isn't coming here...

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Old
04-09-2012, 09:49 AM
  #102
habfaninvictoria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i'm all for improving the grit/toughness in our lineup, but are you telling me it wouldn't "make sense" to land Crosby or Datsyuk either?

Parise is an elite, game-changing level talent, his size is irrelevant.

comparing him (or his potential impact) to the likes of Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri makes no sense.

Adding Parise to ours (or any) lineup, immediately makes them much better.

besides that point, if we were to add him alone, we'd have:

MaxPac-DD-Cole
Parise - Pleks - Gionta/Bourque

even with Gionta, that's an elite level top 6 capable of playing/matching up with any team.

can't forget that Parise, like Plekanec, is very good defensively, and plays with the same kind of drive as a guy like Gionta.

being smallish doesn't impact his effectiveness, and adding him wouldn't be a return to "smurf hockey", imo.

we need to improve our defense regardless of what we do up front, but imo if Markov is healthy and gives us a bit more than what we saw to close out the season (which he should, with an extra 6 months of strengthening/recovery), all we really need is to jettison Kaberle and add 1 gritty top-4 player for our defense to be in excellent shape.
I'm not saying that Parise isn't good... but he's not elite. He's been PPG twice in his career and his production is declining in spite of playing with Elias and/or Kovalchuck, both of whom are much better talent levels. If bringing him here all of a sudden vaulted us to the top of the division then I'd be for it but... not likely. Therefore for the future of the team I say go with what we've got. If that means sucking again next year... so be it. Unless we can make ourselves way better via trade this years UFA's aren't putting anyone over the top.

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Old
04-09-2012, 10:51 AM
  #103
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Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta
Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Yaku/Grigo/Gal - Eller - Leblanc
Moen - White - Darche

Take the free money to target a top D


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Old
04-09-2012, 10:57 AM
  #104
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Yakupov

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Old
04-09-2012, 11:27 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guilliam View Post
I am so fed up with the damn size debate that I'm considering implementing a new policy of mine : putting on ignore list anyone that uses the word "smurfs"...
I'm more sick of 8th place finishes. And that's what we've gotten with our smurf lineups.
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
In my humble opinion last place with a -2 real goal differential means a lot less than last place normally does. Its a situation that literally has no precedent in the modern NHL.

And it only seems like the team's best players had good years because every other one was either traded or injured. Get a Parise and you recent the top nine to a better level than the one that started the year (and played excellently for the early stretch). Fix the relatively minor holes on the defense and then they are set, they basically only need one slightly better than NHL average body back there.
We should be building towards a cup. Parise won't really help get us there. He's in his prime now and we're not contenders with him. There is a time for adding these kinds of players and now is not the time to do it. All he does is make us mediocre.
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Very funny stuff. I'd still consider Markov as "in" if the medical guys say so. Call me stupid. I can handle it
Markov could turn out to be great. Nobody knows what's going to happen with him. But we also can't count on him either.
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Plekanec and Gionta + draft pick. If the draft pick isn't expected to be top 6 NHL ready, then sign a short term top 6 forward for a year or two. Ray Whitney could fit that bill. I doubt anyone is going to be offering a 40 year old more than a two year deal. He's patch work, but given the fact that there's really only one top notch UFA available (Parise) for whom Montreal would be but one of many options, then a short term fix with a quality player may be the best route to take.
Why sign Ray Whitney though? Again, does he help us get to a cup? No right? So why are we bothering with this guy? All he does is maybe get us to 8th.
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
In any case, with Gionta's return, the Canadiens already have 5 bonafide top 6 forwards. With the draft pick, that could possibly rise to the 6 needed. The sorry situation of having only 2 top 6 wingers will be taken care of regardless of whom takes the reins as the new GM.

Line combinations are always subject to change. If Plekanec's line doesn't gel next season-whomever his wingers are-then the DD line needs to be split up. I'd rather not see that given how well that line performed, but if circumstances dictate that is must be, then so be it.
I'd sooner deal away Pleks for building blocks than trade building blocks to get wingers for Pleks.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i'm all for improving the grit/toughness in our lineup, but are you telling me it wouldn't "make sense" to land Crosby or Datsyuk either?
It makes sense when a move helps you to get to a cup. That's all we should be looking at. Crosby gets us closer to a cup. Datsyuk? Good question. He's an elite level player no doubt but he's also 33 years old. The window of opportunity with him is short and we probably wouldn't be able to win it in that timespan anyway. So actually, no... Datsyuk doesn't probably make sense. (Cue everyone coming in now and freaking out)
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Parise is an elite, game-changing level talent, his size is irrelevant.
No he's not. He's an average 1st line player on most teams and he's small. He's also 28.
If we were on the cusp of a cup and he's the final piece? Sure. I can understand it. But we're building now.

Zach Parise is not going to be the only 1st line player that will be available over the next year. He's just available now. We don't need to hurry out and get this guy given our situation. It's another reactionary move designed to make 8th place... not build towards a cup.

What we need is a concentrated, ruthless, determined approach to get as much young elite talent as we can. It can come via top picks or dealing vets for prospects and younger players. We need to be a whole lot more proactive if we ever want to see a cup in Montreal again.

Constantly going after FAs is not going to get us there. It just sets us back from that goal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
comparing him (or his potential impact) to the likes of Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri makes no sense.

Adding Parise to ours (or any) lineup, immediately makes them much better.

besides that point, if we were to add him alone, we'd have:

MaxPac-DD-Cole
Parise - Pleks - Gionta/Bourque

even with Gionta, that's an elite level top 6 capable of playing/matching up with any team.

can't forget that Parise, like Plekanec, is very good defensively, and plays with the same kind of drive as a guy like Gionta.

being smallish doesn't impact his effectiveness, and adding him wouldn't be a return to "smurf hockey", imo.
It makes 67% of our top 6 smurf. It absolutely is a return to smurf hockey and it doesn't make sense for us to do it. Not only due to the size issue but because we're not at the stage where we should be looking at adding this kind of player.

We should develop what we have now, assemble a young dynamic team and then look at adding vets down the road. We already have Erik Cole. Let him be the veteran presence on the team for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
we need to improve our defense regardless of what we do up front, but imo if Markov is healthy and gives us a bit more than what we saw to close out the season (which he should, with an extra 6 months of strengthening/recovery), all we really need is to jettison Kaberle and add 1 gritty top-4 player for our defense to be in excellent shape.
So why not wait to see where we're at next April? If we're doing well then maybe we can add a player like this? Right now though we're full of holes and have no idea how good Markov is going to be. If we invest in Parise and our D sucks, then it's a wasted investment... again. We need to stop wasting our time on these kinds of moves.

Just give it a little patience man.

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Old
04-09-2012, 11:41 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by habfaninvictoria View Post
I'm not saying that Parise isn't good... but he's not elite. He's been PPG twice in his career and his production is declining in spite of playing with Elias and/or Kovalchuck, both of whom are much better talent levels. If bringing him here all of a sudden vaulted us to the top of the division then I'd be for it but... not likely. Therefore for the future of the team I say go with what we've got. If that means sucking again next year... so be it. Unless we can make ourselves way better via trade this years UFA's aren't putting anyone over the top.
1 year removed from a serious knee injury that cost him almost a full season.

after putting up 11 pts in his first 21 games, he went on just about a ppg pace for the rest of the year (58pts/61 games -33goals- which is a .54 goals/game pace, right back to his career best 45goal season pace).

that he played 82 games (and from the few games i saw, looked to have no issues with speed/mobility) speaks to his knee being fully recovered.

after missing almost an entire season, it's not surprising that he had a bit of a slow start, but his play through the final 60 games showed that he's back to the elite level he was at in his 3rd/4th seasons.


it's probably moot anyways, b/c the odds of him picking us are slim... but he's a game-breaking type forward, 30+ goals scored in every season except his rookie year. He'd immediately make our top-6 immensely better, not just by the production he'd bring, but by giving us 2 dangerous offensive lines which would positively impact all of the other players in our top-9.

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Old
04-09-2012, 11:47 AM
  #107
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
1 year removed from a serious knee injury that cost him almost a full season.
That injury is just another reason not to go after him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
after putting up 11 pts in his first 21 games, he went on just about a ppg pace for the rest of the year (58pts/61 games -33goals- which is a .54 goals/game pace, right back to his career best 45goal season pace).

that he played 82 games (and from the few games i saw, looked to have no issues with speed/mobility) speaks to his knee being fully recovered.

after missing almost an entire season, it's not surprising that he had a bit of a slow start, but his play through the final 60 games showed that he's back to the elite level he was at in his 3rd/4th seasons.
Even if he is, he's still not going to win a cup with us. He'll want a 5 year deal minimum and while players who are 28-33 can obviously still produce good hockey, it's entirely possible (if not likely) that we've already seen the best hockey that this guy will ever play.

Again if we were one player away? Sure. But we're not.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
it's probably moot anyways, b/c the odds of him picking us are slim... but he's a game-breaking type forward, 30+ goals scored in every season except his rookie year. He'd immediately make our top-6 immensely better, not just by the production he'd bring, but by giving us 2 dangerous offensive lines which would positively impact all of the other players in our top-9.
He won't come here because he knows he won't win a cup here. And we should be happy about that.

Let Gionta come back and play with Pleks. We've already got a decent enough winger on the 2nd line. And we can always pray that Bourque starts taking steroids or learns how to play hockey again. Either way, our D is still a mess.

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Old
04-09-2012, 11:54 AM
  #108
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The relevance of Parise to this discussion eludes me.


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Old
04-09-2012, 12:00 PM
  #109
Em Ancien
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Trade Pleks for a blue-chip prospect+ then throw the kitchen sink at Langkow or Arnott on a 1-year deal.

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Old
04-09-2012, 12:31 PM
  #110
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm more sick of 8th place finishes. And that's what we've gotten with our smurf lineups.

We should be building towards a cup. Parise won't really help get us there. He's in his prime now and we're not contenders with him. There is a time for adding these kinds of players and now is not the time to do it. All he does is make us mediocre.
i don't follow that logic at all... adding a guy with 40 goal potential, still in the middle of his prime, who is known for his great attitude/work ethic "won't really help us get there"? come on, he's exactly the kind of player that would help us get there.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It makes sense when a move helps you to get to a cup. That's all we should be looking at. Crosby gets us closer to a cup. Datsyuk? Good question. He's an elite level player no doubt but he's also 33 years old. The window of opportunity with him is short and we probably wouldn't be able to win it in that timespan anyway. So actually, no... Datsyuk doesn't probably make sense. (Cue everyone coming in now and freaking out)
Datsyuk is likely to continue being an elite player into his late 30's...

do you know how old Sakic was when he won the cup?

Datsyuk is easily good for another 4-6 years of elite level play, barring major injury of course.

If you don't think we can win a cup within the next 4-6 years, then you clearly have a very different idea of how long it takes to build a team into a contender. Heck even a team as full of holes as the Jackets could easily build a contender in less time than that, with the right management and a bit of luck (which all teams need to actually win a cup).





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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
No he's not. He's an average 1st line player on most teams and he's small. He's also 28.
If we were on the cusp of a cup and he's the final piece? Sure. I can understand it. But we're building now.
so now players with a career average of 30+ goals/season (including the 14 goal/82 game rookie season, which pulls his average down) are "average 1st line players on most teams".

that's simply untrue.

while the cap era combined with the greater physical preparation at earlier ages, has made for an improvement in the performance of younger and younger players, 28 is smack in the middle of an athletes prime, especially for elite players who work diligently on their physical conditioning.
Parise will more than likely continue to be an elite player well into his 30's.

perfect type of elite player to add to a team trying to build into a contender.


he's "small"?

so are Giroux, Kessel, Stamkos, Sedin's, Datsyuk, Crosby, Elias, Whitney, Eberle, Zetterberg, St.Louis, Pominville, Eriksson...

"Small" isn't as big a factor as how effective a player is. Parise (unlike Cammy/Gionta/Plekanec) has been consistently effective his entire career (arguably best at his position in the years prior to his injury-season, and I'm betting right back at that level next year).

i'm certainly not in favor of a misguided approach to roster building like the one we saw gainey take in '09, but that isn't the same as dismissing quality players based on height, that's just as silly a line of thinking as the 90's "western beef" approach we took to drafting on the basis of "big is better".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Zach Parise is not going to be the only 1st line player that will be available over the next year. He's just available now. We don't need to hurry out and get this guy given our situation. It's another reactionary move designed to make 8th place... not build towards a cup.
if he hits UFA, Parise is quite possibly the best forward that will be available without trading away assets to get.

2013, right now, has a few contenders (Crosby, Perry, Getzlaf, Backstrom), but far too early to know if they will hit UFA status (and not very likely).

Parise may still sign before July 1st, but at this point, he's the closest, hence the discussion.

I guess I just disagree entirely with your assesement of what we need to be a contender.

Imo, adding a guy like Parise, and 1 top-4 gritty dman who can easily handle ~20min/night, combined with the right coach, would make our roster strong enough to be a realistic cup contender.

Parise - Pleks - Bourque/Gionta/2012 1st rounder
MaxPac- DD - Cole
Leblanc - Eller - Gionta/2012 1st rounder
Moen - ??? - White
(injury depth: Geoffrion, Staubitz, Gallagher, Kristo?, Palushaj?, Darche?)

Subban - Gorges
Markov - UFA (Stuart/Jackman)
Diaz - Emelin

Price

that group is, imo, more than deep/talented enough to compete with the likes of Boston/Philly/Pitt/NYR.

better still, with bourque/gionta/markov as big contract players that we "could" shed over the next 2-3 years and replace with young players in our system, plus the continued progress of Subban/MP/Eller/Price, we'd be in a position to remain a contender for a long, long time.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What we need is a concentrated, ruthless, determined approach to get as much young elite talent as we can. It can come via top picks or dealing vets for prospects and younger players. We need to be a whole lot more proactive if we ever want to see a cup in Montreal again.
exactly what going lights out to land Parise (and if you want to get really ruthless, you shed Bourque as well as Kaberle/Gomez, and find a way to land Suter as well) would do...

we have a top pick this year, plus a solid amount of top 60 picks in the next two seasons, and a group of young prospects that, while not "elite", should provide us with a steady stream of quality complimentary players for the next 2-5 years.

what this group really needs is exactly what Parise/Suter represent... established youngish elite players who can instantly bring up the quality of our roster, thus making the most out of the talent we do have, which is solid but lacking in the "elite" level of play (aside from Price and, imo, subban)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Constantly going after FAs is not going to get us there. It just sets us back from that goal.
disagree.

the problem is going after declining UFA's, or overpaying for solid-but-unspectacular UFA's. That's where you run into trouble.

Fully agree that, should Parise be off the table, then we shouldn't be throwing big money/term at a guy like Semin. 1 year "flyers" on guys like Whitney/Jagr would make sense as an alternative, but only because they would be solid "stop-gap" solutions that don't cost assets or overly burden our cap.

Boston, by landing Chara, put themselves on the path to a cup. Chicago benefited immensely from adding Hossa in their push to the cup. Philly adding Pronger got themselves to a cup final not long after being in a similar situation to our current one.

don't let Gainey's (and to a lesser extent, Gauthier) ineptitude in managing the UFA market overly bias you against it as a tool that "can" be very effective in expediting the assembly of a cup contending roster.[/QUOTE]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It makes 67% of our top 6 smurf. It absolutely is a return to smurf hockey and it doesn't make sense for us to do it. Not only due to the size issue but because we're not at the stage where we should be looking at adding this kind of player.
that's a silly stat... "67% smurf", based on what, their height alone?

those big bad bruins that won the cup last year...

Krecj, Bergeron, Recchi, Ryder, Marchand, Peverly, Paille, Kelly, Seguin, Campbell...

10 of their top-13 forwards all the same size or smaller than Parise.

only Lucic, Horton & Thorton (and he's only 2 inches/~7pds "bigger" than Parise) are any bigger than Parise.

ridiculous to look at height/weight and then make a "smurf" call.

Parise is excellent at winning puck battles along the boards, and has no problem playing in high traffic areas. He's not a guy that makes any team more "smurfish".

We're EXACTLY at the stage where we should be adding EXACTLY a Parise-type player to pair with Plekanec. Giving him a hockey-smart, highly skilled winger would make the most of his abilities.
Conversely, it would a be a huge mistake to add another big body, low hockey I.Q forward to play with him (as we've seen with the abysmal Bourque addition).

it's about fit, with our pencilled in top-9 forwards, the best fit right now would be an elite winger who can both create offense and play solid 2-way hockey.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We should develop what we have now, assemble a young dynamic team and then look at adding vets down the road. We already have Erik Cole. Let him be the veteran presence on the team for now.
adding Parise isn't about adding "veteran presence, it's about adding established elite skill to finally have at least 2-lines that can produce both at ES and on the PP.

Parise would do nothing but contribute to making our forward group "young and dynamic". You aren't going to add an Eberle/Hall/Seguin, nor a Giroux/Kessel/Stamkos (at least not without totally gutting our depth, which would be unproductive), it's rare that a player like Parise becomes available (under-30 & elite), so when they do, it's a no-brainer to make the push.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So why not wait to see where we're at next April? If we're doing well then maybe we can add a player like this? Right now though we're full of holes and have no idea how good Markov is going to be. If we invest in Parise and our D sucks, then it's a wasted investment... again. We need to stop wasting our time on these kinds of moves.

Just give it a little patience man.
if you're arguing that you'd rather target Suter than Parise... I don't necessarily disagree. Either or would fit into a key need we have in looking to build a contender out of the current & projectable roster we have.

but Parise (as an elite top-6 winger with 40+goal/ppg potential) fills a need that is very hard to fill, especially without sacrificing major assets.

Perry would be a great fit, perhaps even better from the "grit pov" but I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to make a run at Parise, should he make it to July 1st, just to wait and see if I get a chance to go after Perry a year from now.

Patience is something I definitely support, but at the same time, strategic aggressiveness is equally important. Just b/c we've endured a few years of poorly timed/poorly planned aggressiveness doesn't mean sitting on our hands is a superior option in the future.

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04-09-2012, 12:44 PM
  #111
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Cole - DD - Pac
Semin - Plek - Gio
Bourque - Eller - Moen

That'd be a great top 9. Semin has an undeserved bad reputation. He's a great two-way winger with most probably the best wrist shot in the league. In an ideal situation, he's a 40 goals, PPG forward.

If we can get him for anything between 5 and 6M, I say go for it. Game breaking talent.

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04-09-2012, 12:56 PM
  #112
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With a new GM, anything can happen...

But I would not be surprised to see a

Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta, line next October.


I don't see how our first pick could play at NHL level next season (unless it is Yakupov), and who can we trade to get a quality (or two) winger(s) to play with Plek ? Leblanc nor Gallagher are ready for second-line duties.


I strongly doubt Parise would sign with the Habs, and I don't want Semin anywhere near that team.

Great challenge for the next GM !

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04-09-2012, 01:06 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What we need is a concentrated, ruthless, determined approach to get as much young elite talent as we can. It can come via top picks or dealing vets for prospects and younger players. We need to be a whole lot more proactive if we ever want to see a cup in Montreal again.
What we need is to gear this team for a run at Crosby next summer. That means hiring Brisson and doing whatever it takes to make Sid comfortable. Getting a shutdown Dman is part of it. Hiring a Sid-friendly coach too.

Not going to be easy for Sid to leave what they have in Pittsburgh. They are top notch through and through. We have to replicate that and we have one year to do it.

It's along the same path as building a winner anyway. We should go after Parise with all we have as well and cut the fat (Bourque, Gomez, Kaberle, Campoli).

Parise - Pleks - Gionta
MaxPac- DD - Cole
Moen - Eller - Forsberg
Staubitz - Leblanc - White
Geoffrion, Staubitz spares

Markov - UFA (Jackman)
Gorges - Subban
Tinordi - Emelin
Diaz

Price/Brodeur ;>


Last edited by tinyzombies: 04-09-2012 at 01:15 PM.
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04-09-2012, 01:08 PM
  #114
Habitant le colon
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I still think about GAUTHIER GAINEY ERA :

Cole Desharnais Pacioretty
Kovalev Plekanec Jagr
Bourque Eller Gionta
Moen Koivu White
Staubitz

Markov Komisarek
Subban Gorges
Emelin Kaberle
Diaz Weber



No seriously :

Cole Desharnais Pacioretty
Gionta Plekanec Parenteau
Bourque Eller Hagman
Moen Konopka White
Staubitz

Markov Jackman
Subban Gorges
Emelin Kaberle
Diaz St-Denis
Weber

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04-09-2012, 01:12 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitant le colon View Post

I still think about GAUTHIER GAINEY ERA :

Cole Desharnais Pacioretty
Kovalev Plekanec Jagr
Bourque Eller Gionta
Moen Koivu White
Staubitz

Markov Komisarek
Subban Gorges
Emelin Kaberle
Diaz Weber



No seriously :

Cole Desharnais Pacioretty
Gionta Plekanec Parenteau
Bourque Eller Hagman
Moen Konopka White
Staubitz

Markov Jackman
Subban Gorges
Emelin Kaberle
Diaz St-Denis
Weber
That's pretty much as bad.

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Old
04-09-2012, 02:10 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i don't follow that logic at all... adding a guy with 40 goal potential, still in the middle of his prime, who is known for his great attitude/work ethic "won't really help us get there"? come on, he's exactly the kind of player that would help us get there.
Timing is wrong. So is his size.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Datsyuk is likely to continue being an elite player into his late 30's...

do you know how old Sakic was when he won the cup?

Datsyuk is easily good for another 4-6 years of elite level play, barring major injury of course.
And if we had the Avalanche's roster with Forsberg and Roy, I'd be all for it.

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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
If you don't think we can win a cup within the next 4-6 years, then you clearly have a very different idea of how long it takes to build a team into a contender. Heck even a team as full of holes as the Jackets could easily build a contender in less time than that, with the right management and a bit of luck (which all teams need to actually win a cup).
I think we have a lot of work to do to get there. Adding a 33 year old player as a central piece to this roster (no matter how good he is) doesn't make sense right now.

If we were contenders now? Sure.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
so now players with a career average of 30+ goals/season (including the 14 goal/82 game rookie season, which pulls his average down) are "average 1st line players on most teams".

that's simply untrue.

while the cap era combined with the greater physical preparation at earlier ages, has made for an improvement in the performance of younger and younger players, 28 is smack in the middle of an athletes prime, especially for elite players who work diligently on their physical conditioning.
Parise will more than likely continue to be an elite player well into his 30's.

perfect type of elite player to add to a team trying to build into a contender.
Most forwards peak around 26 or earlier. Doesn't mean they can't be productive but yeah, it wouldn't be a surprise at all if he's already seen his best years.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
he's "small"?

so are Giroux, Kessel, Stamkos, Sedin's, Datsyuk, Crosby, Elias, Whitney, Eberle, Zetterberg, St.Louis, Pominville, Eriksson...
Great. Let's team St. Louis with DD and Gionta. That way we can have an old and small line.

BTW, Stamkos and the Sedins aren't small by any stretch.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
"Small" isn't as big a factor as how effective a player is. Parise (unlike Cammy/Gionta/Plekanec) has been consistently effective his entire career (arguably best at his position in the years prior to his injury-season, and I'm betting right back at that level next year).

i'm certainly not in favor of a misguided approach to roster building like the one we saw gainey take in '09, but that isn't the same as dismissing quality players based on height, that's just as silly a line of thinking as the 90's "western beef" approach we took to drafting on the basis of "big is better".
I'm not against small players. I'm against having a small team. Big difference (pun intended)

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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if he hits UFA, Parise is quite possibly the best forward that will be available without trading away assets to get.

2013, right now, has a few contenders (Crosby, Perry, Getzlaf, Backstrom), but far too early to know if they will hit UFA status (and not very likely).

Parise may still sign before July 1st, but at this point, he's the closest, hence the discussion.

I guess I just disagree entirely with your assesement of what we need to be a contender.

Imo, adding a guy like Parise, and 1 top-4 gritty dman who can easily handle ~20min/night, combined with the right coach, would make our roster strong enough to be a realistic cup contender.

Parise - Pleks - Bourque/Gionta/2012 1st rounder
MaxPac- DD - Cole
Leblanc - Eller - Gionta/2012 1st rounder
Moen - ??? - White
(injury depth: Geoffrion, Staubitz, Gallagher, Kristo?, Palushaj?, Darche?)

Subban - Gorges
Markov - UFA (Stuart/Jackman)
Diaz - Emelin

Price

that group is, imo, more than deep/talented enough to compete with the likes of Boston/Philly/Pitt/NYR.

better still, with bourque/gionta/markov as big contract players that we "could" shed over the next 2-3 years and replace with young players in our system, plus the continued progress of Subban/MP/Eller/Price, we'd be in a position to remain a contender for a long, long time.
I don't think we'll be contenders next year anyway. I think Parise knows this and that's why he won't come here to begin with. And that's good for him and us.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
exactly what going lights out to land Parise (and if you want to get really ruthless, you shed Bourque as well as Kaberle/Gomez, and find a way to land Suter as well) would do...

we have a top pick this year, plus a solid amount of top 60 picks in the next two seasons, and a group of young prospects that, while not "elite", should provide us with a steady stream of quality complimentary players for the next 2-5 years.

what this group really needs is exactly what Parise/Suter represent... established youngish elite players who can instantly bring up the quality of our roster, thus making the most out of the talent we do have, which is solid but lacking in the "elite" level of play (aside from Price and, imo, subban)
No. I don't think Parise gets us anywhere. Weber I think makes sense because our D is pretty far away from being developed, we need help there more accutely, I think he'd help us more and I think that blueliners tend to age a bit better than forwards.

He won't come here either though...
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
disagree.

the problem is going after declining UFA's, or overpaying for solid-but-unspectacular UFA's. That's where you run into trouble.

Fully agree that, should Parise be off the table, then we shouldn't be throwing big money/term at a guy like Semin. 1 year "flyers" on guys like Whitney/Jagr would make sense as an alternative, but only because they would be solid "stop-gap" solutions that don't cost assets or overly burden our cap.

Boston, by landing Chara, put themselves on the path to a cup. Chicago benefited immensely from adding Hossa in their push to the cup. Philly adding Pronger got themselves to a cup final not long after being in a similar situation to our current one.

don't let Gainey's (and to a lesser extent, Gauthier) ineptitude in managing the UFA market overly bias you against it as a tool that "can" be very effective in expediting the assembly of a cup contending roster.
Parise is going to be overpaid. To get him we'd need to sign him to a long stupid contract that would have him on our roster long after he'd be the player he is now.

I'm sorry but I've seen this before and I don't want us to do it again. You're welcome to your own opinion but I don't want anything to do with this guy anymore than I did when everyone said we should get Briere or Lecavalier.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
that's a silly stat... "67% smurf", based on what, their height alone?

those big bad bruins that won the cup last year...

Krecj, Bergeron, Recchi, Ryder, Marchand, Peverly, Paille, Kelly, Seguin, Campbell...

10 of their top-13 forwards all the same size or smaller than Parise.

only Lucic, Horton & Thorton (and he's only 2 inches/~7pds "bigger" than Parise) are any bigger than Parise.

ridiculous to look at height/weight and then make a "smurf" call.
How many were bigger than Desharnais? How many were bigger than Gionta?

It's one thing to add a guy like Parise to a lineup with average size, it's a whole other ball of wax to add him to a lineup that already has Plecks and two midgets in the top six.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Parise is excellent at winning puck battles along the boards, and has no problem playing in high traffic areas. He's not a guy that makes any team more "smurfish".

We're EXACTLY at the stage where we should be adding EXACTLY a Parise-type player to pair with Plekanec. Giving him a hockey-smart, highly skilled winger would make the most of his abilities.
Conversely, it would a be a huge mistake to add another big body, low hockey I.Q forward to play with him (as we've seen with the abysmal Bourque addition).

it's about fit, with our pencilled in top-9 forwards, the best fit right now would be an elite winger who can both create offense and play solid 2-way hockey.

adding Parise isn't about adding "veteran presence, it's about adding established elite skill to finally have at least 2-lines that can produce both at ES and on the PP.

Parise would do nothing but contribute to making our forward group "young and dynamic". You aren't going to add an Eberle/Hall/Seguin, nor a Giroux/Kessel/Stamkos (at least not without totally gutting our depth, which would be unproductive), it's rare that a player like Parise becomes available (under-30 & elite), so when they do, it's a no-brainer to make the push.
He's a good player. He's not the superstar that you're painting him to be.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if you're arguing that you'd rather target Suter than Parise... I don't necessarily disagree. Either or would fit into a key need we have in looking to build a contender out of the current & projectable roster we have.

but Parise (as an elite top-6 winger with 40+goal/ppg potential) fills a need that is very hard to fill, especially without sacrificing major assets.

Perry would be a great fit, perhaps even better from the "grit pov" but I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to make a run at Parise, should he make it to July 1st, just to wait and see if I get a chance to go after Perry a year from now.

Patience is something I definitely support, but at the same time, strategic aggressiveness is equally important. Just b/c we've endured a few years of poorly timed/poorly planned aggressiveness doesn't mean sitting on our hands is a superior option in the future.
Well, he's not coming here. And he's not coming here because he knows that we won't win a cup with him. Way too many holes and he can just go somewhere else where a UFA makes sense as the last piece of the puzzle. We're not there yet and he knows it.

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04-09-2012, 02:19 PM
  #117
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What we need is to gear this team for a run at Crosby next summer.
That goes for any team in the league. What team doesn't need a 24 year old superstar with the chance to go down as one of the best players in league history?

It's a nice dream.

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04-09-2012, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Good lord how some people could think signing one of the most dangerous players in the game could be anything but an excellent move is hilarious.

If Parise even looks our way we offer him as much as we can and don't look back.
Definately have to agree with this, im rly unsure where lafleurs guy is coming from this time

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04-09-2012, 02:36 PM
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Definately have to agree with this, im rly unsure where lafleurs guy is coming from this time
Did you know where I was coming from when I said getting Gomez, Gionta and Cammy was going to set us back? Be honest? Did you defend those moves?

If so, it's not surprising that you don't know where I'm coming from now.

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04-09-2012, 02:51 PM
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Cole - DD - Pac
Semin - Plek - Gio
Bourque - Eller - Moen

That'd be a great top 9. Semin has an undeserved bad reputation. He's a great two-way winger with most probably the best wrist shot in the league. In an ideal situation, he's a 40 goals, PPG forward.

If we can get him for anything between 5 and 6M, I say go for it. Game breaking talent.
im actually ok with getting semin. having DD as his center just constantly dishing him pucks could help improve his lackluster season...

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04-09-2012, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Did you know where I was coming from when I said getting Gomez, Gionta and Cammy was going to set us back? Be honest? Did you defend those moves?

If so, it's not surprising that you don't know where I'm coming from now.
None of those three lack production because of their size. Your argument is nonsense. Gomez and Cammalleri have had strong games in the past but they stopped doing what they needed to do in order to be successful . It is not because other players just finally realized "hey you are under 6ft!" Go on the main boards with your theory, you will be laughed out in the first 5 minutes.

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04-09-2012, 03:11 PM
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What about Forsberg if NYI or Toronto win the lottery and pick ahead of us? Does he play LW?

They may not have to win the lottery for the Habs to go with Forsberg. He may end up going top three depending on how he looks at the U-18's.

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04-09-2012, 03:29 PM
  #123
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None of those three lack production because of their size.
Like I said, I have no problem with small players. Small teams though? Not a great strategy if you're building towards a cup.
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Your argument is nonsense. Gomez and Cammalleri have had strong games in the past but they stopped doing what they needed to do in order to be successful . It is not because other players just finally realized "hey you are under 6ft!"
So they just stopped doing what they needed to do? I wonder why that is? Do you think it has to do with the fact that we teamed a bunch of smurfs together?
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Go on the main boards with your theory, you will be laughed out in the first 5 minutes.
What theory would you like me to go on the main boards with? I'm arguing a few things here:

1. Parise doesn't make us contenders and won't really help us become one.
(I dont' see anyone laughing me off the board for that one.)

2. It's not a great idea to build your top six around small players.
(There may be some disagreement there but we've got midgets in our lineup... I don't think anyone will laugh unless I post that picture of Desharnais being used as Karlsson's own personal handpuppet.)

3. The Habs should stay patient and rebuild their club via the draft and evaluate their players before making any kind of huge moves.
(Again, some may disagree but I think opinion is going to side with me over you if we're looking at non-Hab fans.)

This board consistently overrates it's own team. YOU go to the board and ask them if Parise is going to turn us into contenders. You go see how many folks agree with you on that.

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04-09-2012, 03:59 PM
  #124
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BTW, Stamkos and the Sedins aren't small by any stretch.
won't respond to the rest, because we're just going to go around in circles.

I think we are closer to having a contending team then you are, fair enough.

I think that Parise wouldn't make us have a "smurf team", you do... so be it.


but you're wrong if you think Parise is "smaller" than Stamkos/Sedins.

Stamkos- 6'1 188pds
Sedins - 6"1, 6"2, 187/188pds
Parise - 5'11, 195pds


unless you equate size solely to height (which would be wrong in regards to "size" as it relates to a contact sport like hockey), you can't argue that Parise is "small" without viewing Stamkos & the twins in the same light.

they are taller, yes, by 2 inches, but at the same time they are 7-8pds lighter.

if we were talking about lighter guys that were 5-6inches taller, then maybe you could try to argue that the reach factor comes into play, but at 2 inches??? give me a break.

neither of us know how these guys do in strength measurements, but in terms of dynamic on ice play and abilities to win puck battles, Parise matches up just fine with all three.

nonsense to try to suggest that Parise is "small" unless those players fit the same description, but of course, in that case, the entire "i don't want small guys" argument goes out the window.

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04-09-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
won't respond to the rest, because we're just going to go around in circles.

I think we are closer to having a contending team then you are, fair enough.

I think that Parise wouldn't make us have a "smurf team", you do... so be it.


but you're wrong if you think Parise is "smaller" than Stamkos/Sedins.

Stamkos- 6'1 188pds
Sedins - 6"1, 6"2, 187/188pds
Parise - 5'11, 195pds


unless you equate size solely to height (which would be wrong in regards to "size" as it relates to a contact sport like hockey), you can't argue that Parise is "small" without viewing Stamkos & the twins in the same light.

they are taller, yes, by 2 inches, but at the same time they are 7-8pds lighter.

if we were talking about lighter guys that were 5-6inches taller, then maybe you could try to argue that the reach factor comes into play, but at 2 inches??? give me a break.

neither of us know how these guys do in strength measurements, but in terms of dynamic on ice play and abilities to win puck battles, Parise matches up just fine with all three.

nonsense to try to suggest that Parise is "small" unless those players fit the same description, but of course, in that case, the entire "i don't want small guys" argument goes out the window.
I'm pretty sure those numbers are out of whack. I read recently that Stamkos put on 20 pounds with Gary Roberts' group. There's no way he's not 200+ pounds. He's got to weigh more than 188. I also think that Parise is probably not 5'11.

Anyways... I'm glad we won't be getting him.

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