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Gainey's legacy as GM is not as bad as people think

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Old
04-09-2012, 03:30 PM
  #26
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And when you consider what he had to work with when he came in, that's pretty impressive.

I think he would've been good if he hadn't had that personal tragedy. The guy is human and I'm sure hockey became far less important for him once that happened. Based on the overall results he was a bad GM, but it really was only in his 2nd half that we saw him starting to suck. I thought he could've rebuilt more aggressively but he was doing a good job putting a team together before his personal life fell apart.

People should show him more respect.

When your competition is Rejean Houle and Pierre Gauthier, it's not much of a contest. Savard would be better though.
You wrote: "And when you consider what he had to work with when he came in, that's pretty impressive..."

What do you mean by "what he had to work with"?

Gainey had:

(1) a top tier budget

(2)

Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Andrei Kostitsyn
Higgins - Koivu - Ryder
Plekanec – Lapierre

Markov – Rivet
Souray – Komisarek
Hainsey – Beauchemin
Bouillon - O'Byrne

Halak

All those players were in the organisation when Gainey took the helm. The 2003 draft is Savard/Timmins' work; Gainey was hired 2-3 weeks before the draft.

=> Plenty of good assets (players and money) to work with imo.

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04-09-2012, 03:33 PM
  #27
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
You wrote: "And when you consider what he had to work with when he came in, that's pretty impressive..."

What do you mean by "what he had to work with"?

Gainey had:

(1) a top tier budget

(2)

Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Andrei Kostitsyn
Higgins - Koivu - Ryder
Plekanec – Lapierre

Markov – Rivet
Souray – Komisarek
Hainsey – Beauchemin
Bouillon - O'Byrne

Halak

All those players were in the organisation when Gainey took the helm. The 2003 draft is Savard/Timmins' work; Gainey was hired 2-3 weeks before the draft.

=> Plenty of good assets (players and money) to work with imo.
It's not all that impressive a group. Esp when you consider that Halak and O'Byrne were a long ways away from playing. That doesn't look like the kind of time that's going to make the playoffs 5 out of 6 years.

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04-09-2012, 03:38 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Rscorpio View Post
For me Gainey is .....


thanks a lot Bob
That's very short-sighted. What about Kovalev for Balej? Or Rivet for Gorges and a 1st (Pacioretty)?

But sure, it's the Gomez trade that sums it all up, right?

Gainey didn't do great, but he wasn't as bad as some what to believe. What I remember most is that when he took over, the Habs didn't have a farm team to call their own, sharing with Edmonton and Dallas. He sure as heck changed that.

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04-09-2012, 03:39 PM
  #29
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's not all that impressive a group. Esp when you consider that Halak and O'Byrne were a long ways away from playing. That doesn't look like the kind of time that's going to make the playoffs 5 out of 6 years.
Thanks for the reply but we will have to agree to disagree on that one: I consider this group of players as (1) good assets to work with (especially with a top tier budget) and (2) good enough to be considered as playoffs contenders: the D squad is impressive and the center line is very solid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
That's very short-sighted. What about Kovalev for Balej? Or Rivet for Gorges and a 1st (Pacioretty)?

But sure, it's the Gomez trade that sums it all up, right?
Gainey offered Balej OR Plekanec to the NYR for Kovalev. Luckily for us, they chose Balej.

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04-09-2012, 03:55 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by KingKovy View Post

Amazing trades:

The Kovalev trade was a complete steal! As a matter of fact I think it was probably the biggest steal I can remember the Habs making in the last 10 years or so and BG doesn't get enough credit for that.

The Gorges and Pacioretty for Rivet deal will probably go down as one of the biggest steals in tabs history as well..
I agree that the Rivet deal was excellent but to say that Kovalev's trade was "amazing" is a bit of a overstatement but it was still a very good one, simply because NYR chose Balej over Pleky. However, for myself I will always think of Bob Gainey as a failure of a GM for the following reason:
Gomez (how many millions per goal?) +Pyatt(who was quite good this year in TBay, thanks Pierre) for McDonagh (Elite Potential Dman) and Higgins (Excellent 3rd line player)
Ribeiro deal was done primarily because Ribeiro was a "cancer" in the room and all the return we could get was a terrible Finnish Defensemen. I almost feel like Gainey was helping his old club out by doing this deal, even at the time it seemed like a nonesense trade, I was @ the Bell when it was announced and was perplexed, still am.
Shortsighted thinking was primarily what Gainey/Gauthier did, like keeping all the UFA's to try and make a run for the playoffs even though the team was on a tailspin. Look at the Bourque, Kaberle, Schneider (2nd rounder for a 40yr old, WTF), all very shortsighted ultimately bad moves on his part. Trading Halak for Eller was a very brutal deal and now we see how well St-Louis is doing, not to mention Varlamov, who was pretty bad in the playoffs, got traded for a 1st and a 2nd. Getting rid of Lapierre, Ryder, Hainsey and Beauchemin for literally nothing was pretty bone-headed as well. Then we can look at his record as a manager and you immediately see a high level of inconsistency when you look at the # of Coaches and Assistant Coaches that have coached this team since Gainey took over. Getting rid of Boucher, Brisebois and Muller were clearly bad managerial decisions at the time and now its embarrassing. Gainey/Gauthier era will have it's defender's and many will say the Price, Subban + Gorges were great pieces to acquire and that's true (Desharnais was Carbo's move). When you look at the big picture though it's pretty clear that this regime was pretty awful when compared to what could have been

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04-09-2012, 04:15 PM
  #31
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depends on both expectations and standards...

the team was mediocre for the most part of his tenure, with one fluky conference title (league fewest injury games lost, none to consequential players), and one playoff success (riding on the back of 2 hof type performances from Cammy/Halak... for 2 rounds, which we squeaked by in 7 games despite being soundly outplayed).

the one part that is annoying, is how little credit people give to Andre Savard for laying the ground work that allowed Gainey to step into a situation where the team had a quick result improvement, most importantly in that the hiring of T.Timmins.

The drafting, getting the fluke top-5 pick, and the incumbent core players (Markov, Koivu, Plekanec, Komisarek, Higgins, Souray, Ryder, Ribiero, Zednik, Theodore...) those factors are what led to the team posting regular 90+pt seasons far more than any of the immediate moves that Gainey made.

unless people really think that Kovalev, Bonk, Huet were the difference btw the futility prior to his arrival and the consistency we saw shortly after he took over.

he wasn't the worst GM ever, sure, though he does have one of the worst trades ever on his resume.

on the whole, he shouldn't have lasted as long as he did, not for a team supposedly focused on excellence.

making the playoffs 5 of 6 years is great from a profit pov, but from an expectation level pov, it's what middle of the pack teams aspire to. Excellent organizations are in it to win it, and 1 EC trip in 8 years (a trip that saw the team get quickly/easily handled) followed immediately by another road-playoff regular season finish & first round elimination, is not even close to excellence.

His performance was mediocre, average if you prefer the sound of that.

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04-09-2012, 04:25 PM
  #32
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And here we go again......

Next week's thread: Pierre Gauthier wasn't as bad

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04-09-2012, 04:32 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I like to look at the results and the simple facts are this:

-He had 6 years of being the GM, and the team made the playoffs 5 out of those 6 times.
-One of the years the team placed first in the conference.
-The team got 90 or above points in every season he was the GM.
-Two 2nd round appearances.
-One conference finals appearance.

That is way above average in the current NHL environment. I have no problem with Gainey's tenure at all.
thats a pretty good record and many teams around the league would want that

but in Montreal the bar is set higher then other teams and more is expected

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04-09-2012, 04:51 PM
  #34
Joe Lamb
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Has nothing to do with the discussion, stay on topic. I don't respect the job he has done, he ran away and left a huge mess for someone else to clean up. Saddled this team with bad contracts and idiot coaches. He wasted a lot of time for this franchise.
Thanks for the direction and being so specific.

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04-09-2012, 04:51 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by donghabs98 View Post
thats a pretty good record and many teams around the league would want that

but in Montreal the bar is set higher then other teams and more is expected
Well I don't adhere to this mentality, so it doesn't apply to my reasoning (nor should it for anyone else for that matter).

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04-09-2012, 05:03 PM
  #36
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I thought Gainey was great until his insane Summer spending spree. Waaay to many big contract's for older, declining players.
Up until then he has a track record which is well above average. Also, his calm cool demeanor was perfect for a Habs Gm.
The part I respect him for the most though was his willingness to step behind the habs bench (and do a great job) when the team needed him. He was fully committed to the success of this team, there is no doubt. Unfortunately, he left on a pretty sour note, so that's all anyone can remember.

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04-09-2012, 05:12 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by KingKovy View Post
So name me a habs GM that did better since 1990..
Serge Savard.

During Mr. Savard's twelve years as GM (1983-1995, you said since 1990) his team made the playoffs in eleven straight years and went to the Stanley cup finals three times (1986, 1989, 1993) yielding two cups in '86 and '93.

You're telling Gainey was anywhere close to as good as Savard? Not even close.

Savard's departure was the end of the Habs legacy. We have been awful ever since.

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04-09-2012, 05:16 PM
  #38
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Gainey had a very promising start, he was good the first 2 or 3 years, but he just blew it after. Since the summer he decided to let Koivu go and acquire Gomez, everything went downhill from there. Actually, as some of you already stated, his bad decisions started even before, appointing Price as #1 goalie despite Carbonneau's will.

He's not Houle-bad, but not far.

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04-09-2012, 05:21 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
You wrote: "And when you consider what he had to work with when he came in, that's pretty impressive..."

What do you mean by "what he had to work with"?

Gainey had:

(1) a top tier budget

(2)

Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Andrei Kostitsyn
Higgins - Koivu - Ryder
Plekanec – Lapierre

Markov – Rivet
Souray – Komisarek
Hainsey – Beauchemin
Bouillon - O'Byrne

Halak

All those players were in the organisation when Gainey took the helm. The 2003 draft is Savard/Timmins' work; Gainey was hired 2-3 weeks before the draft.

=> Plenty of good assets (players and money) to work with imo.
To be fair when Gainey came in, it was Ryder's rookie season and no body would have imagined that he'd be a 30 goals scorer, let's not forget he was a 7th round pick.

Higgins, Kostytsin and Plekanec were in the AHL. Perezhogin was in Russia.

In fact, I'm not sure you know what year Gainey came as GM. If you mean to list these guys as being members of the organization then yeah you're right, but when Gainey came in the lineup had guys like: Dagenais, Dackell, Perreault, Juneau, Sundstrum. We did not have Kovalev even. That was a terrible lineup.

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04-09-2012, 05:21 PM
  #40
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Picaroon View Post
I thought Gainey was great until his insane Summer spending spree. Waaay to many big contract's for older, declining players.
Up until then he has a track record which is well above average. Also, his calm cool demeanor was perfect for a Habs Gm.
The part I respect him for the most though was his willingness to step behind the habs bench (and do a great job) when the team needed him. He was fully committed to the success of this team, there is no doubt. Unfortunately, he left on a pretty sour note, so that's all anyone can remember.
You wrote: "... The part I respect him for the most though was his willingness to step behind the habs bench (and do a great job) when the team needed him..."

In 2008-09 Gainey fired Carbonneau and led the team to a 6-6-4 record (the team's record with Carbonneau as the head coach was, in 2008-09, 35-24-7) + a first round exit – Remember Laraque on 1st?

Is that what you call "... a great job..."?

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
To be fair when Gainey came in, it was Ryder's rookie season and no body would have imagined that he'd be a 30 goals scorer, let's not forget he was a 7th round pick.

Higgins, Kostytsin and Plekanec were in the AHL. Perezhogin was in Russia.

In fact, I'm not sure you know what year Gainey came as GM. If you mean to list these guys as being members of the organization then yeah you're right, but when Gainey came in the lineup had guys like: Dagenais, Dackell, Perreault, Juneau, Sundstrum. We did not have Kovalev even. That was a terrible lineup.
(1) Ryder immediately had great chemistry with Ribeiro and in 2002-03 he showed good things in the AHL. Plus, and more importantly, just because he was a rookie, it does not mean he was not a valuable asset.

(2) You wrote: "... In fact, I'm not sure you know what year Gainey came as GM. If you mean to list these guys as being members of the organization then yeah you're right, but when Gainey came in the lineup had guys like: Dagenais, Dackell, Perreault, Juneau, Sundstrum...". As I mentioned all (*1) those players were in the organisation when Gainey took the helm from André Savard a few weeks before the 2003 draft. (*1) The 2003 draft is Savard/Timmins' work; Gainey was hired 2-3 weeks before the draft. I mentioned it because, according to many posters in here, Gainey had no asset (assets; not necessarily NHL players => I also included prospects and $$$) to work with.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 04-09-2012 at 05:46 PM.
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04-09-2012, 05:30 PM
  #41
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He was indirectly responsible for Bourque and Kaberle via secondary trades of Cammalleri and Spacek and for lost high draft picks to acquire Lang and Tanguay. It's moot but retaining Koivu would probably have been a better idea than trading for Gomez. Pacioretty, Price and Subban were drafted during his regime but so were Chipchura, Fischer, and Maxwell.

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04-09-2012, 05:41 PM
  #42
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Gainey did quite a bit of good. The problem is the BAD was REALLY BAD.

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04-09-2012, 05:55 PM
  #43
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His legacy finished 28th in a 30 team league.

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04-09-2012, 06:09 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
Gainey had a very promising start, he was good the first 2 or 3 years, but he just blew it after. Since the summer he decided to let Koivu go and acquire Gomez, everything went downhill from there. Actually, as some of you already stated, his bad decisions started even before, appointing Price as #1 goalie despite Carbonneau's will.

He's not Houle-bad, but not far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picaroon View Post
I thought Gainey was great until his insane Summer spending spree. Waaay to many big contract's for older, declining players.
Up until then he has a track record which is well above average. Also, his calm cool demeanor was perfect for a Habs Gm.
The part I respect him for the most though was his willingness to step behind the habs bench (and do a great job) when the team needed him. He was fully committed to the success of this team, there is no doubt. Unfortunately, he left on a pretty sour note, so that's all anyone can remember.
One could easily argue that the time you are putting your negative outlook on is what resulted in the most successful result. The "summer spending spree" directly led to a conference finals birth, the best result the team has had in nearly two decades.

The question of whether it was worth it is a little more complex; however, the fact that is produced the most effective result during his tenure kind of de-legitimizes your argument.

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04-09-2012, 06:16 PM
  #45
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I don't think Gainey's tenure as a whole was horrible. For the most part he halped make the Habs relevant again, but he struggled in the cap world a bit, especially when you look at the Gomez contract.

He did play a big part in this year's struggles as the "big 3" added in 2009 took up about 1/3 of this year's cap and contributed like 40 points for 18 mil.

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04-09-2012, 06:18 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Habsfunk View Post
Bob Gainey did a lot of good but the Gomez trade undid a lot, if not all of that. Trading away two good assets for that albatross of a contract has really hampered the team. The Habs this year with Higgins, McDonagh and $4 million in cap space to spend on other players would have greatly benefited the team.
McDonagh is a legitimate point but Higgins was a year away from UFA and worth little. He had two more bad years after leaving us.

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04-09-2012, 06:21 PM
  #47
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Gainey was quire good for the first part of his tenure until the tragic death of his daughter.


He went nuts with his July shopping spree in 2009. Main error: trading for or signing too many smallish expensive forwards at the same time. His biggest mistake of all: Gomez !

We could always say that the team played three rounds in Spring 2010, and was just one goal away of going to a second round (at least ?) last Spring.


Last edited by habitue*: 04-09-2012 at 06:45 PM.
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04-09-2012, 06:24 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Totally agree. Pisses me off that he gets so much crap. The core we have now of Price, PK, Gorges, Patches etc are all Gaineys doing. People forget how crappy we were and how we had no farm team or prospects of a future before he got here.
I agree.

On top of that people critizise Gainey because Gauthier had no leadership. Gomez played much better under Bob and there is no reAson to beleive that it would Gomez would have crashed regardless of who was upstairs.

Hockey is a leadership sport. Leaders make people overacheive or at the very least they dont make them underaicheive like Gomez has this year.

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04-09-2012, 06:40 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Gainey did quite a bit of good. The problem is the BAD was REALLY BAD.
this

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04-09-2012, 07:25 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by VAN-HAB View Post
I would like to take this opportunity to say (again):

**** you Mr. Gainey!


Ryan
The profanities, the over-the-top foaming at the mouth irrationality, these boards need to be cleaned up. So many people with so much hatred. All the haters can huff and puff all they want and will NEVER be able to take away the respect Gainey has among his peers. He has a cup win as a GM...oh...oh I forgot that was the pre-salary cap era. So what? Cup wins in the cap era are more important? Gainey has accomplished more in the hockey world than the vast majority of hockey people (including every single poster on these boards)

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