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Old
04-09-2012, 02:13 PM
  #76
Vito Andolini
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
In sports marketing there are two types of stars.

The guys who become popular because the fans gravitate towards them and the guys who are pushed on people.

The former outsells the latter every time. Crosby will never be the marketable player the NHL wants him to be. No matter how much the NHL tries to force the issue, it's just not happening. It's not working now, just like it didn't work with Mario.
You're right in what you're saying, but I don't see how it applies to the actual realities of today's NHL. The league can only work with what it has available. They don't have a Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan that people can unite around...but Crosby isn't a bad alternative.

Think about what the league had before he came along? The lack of a centralized face for the league was a big problem in the late 90's, early 00's.

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04-09-2012, 02:16 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
You're right in what you're saying, but I don't see how it applies to the actual realities of today's NHL. The league can only work with what it has available. They don't have a Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan that people can unite around...but Crosby isn't a bad alternative.

Think about what the league had before he came along? The lack of a centralized face for the league was a big problem in the late 90's, early 00's.
Why not Stamkos? Likeable guy too...

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04-09-2012, 02:27 PM
  #78
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It also helped that Jordan and Gretzky were in two very marketable cities (Chicago and LA). As passionate as Pittsburgh fans can be (at least when their team is winning), its very much of a niche market. It's definitely not the place to market the best player in the league.

You could pick out a skyline/major landmark of New York/LA/Chicago easily. What's in Pittsburgh?

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04-09-2012, 03:01 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by CaptCally View Post
It also helped that Jordan and Gretzky were in two very marketable cities (Chicago and LA). As passionate as Pittsburgh fans can be (at least when their team is winning), its very much of a niche market. It's definitely not the place to market the best player in the league.

You could pick out a skyline/major landmark of New York/LA/Chicago easily. What's in Pittsburgh?
I don't really see how the location of the city has much of an effect on things. Sure, a small city can shadow a major talent, but with the right press from the league, players can still overcome that. Lebron James was in Cleveland for a long time and he was still one of the most marketable athletes in the world. Albert Pulols was in St. Louis for his whole career and is one of the most marketable players in baseball. Since the arrival of Crosby and Ovechkin, the league has done everything they can to shove those players in the faces of every person they can. It's worked to an extent, but very few hockey players have ever been able to reach the status of athletes in other sports. Why? Because of youth sports. In the US, kids grow up with a football or baseball in their hands, not hockey sticks.

Hockey just has never been as marketable as the other big sports in the United States. With Gretzky, he could cross over because the league could market him as the "greatest of all time" and he had the personality to go with it (at least when the spotlight was on him). Mario Lemieux, on the other hand, was/is a tool bag that stepped on people's toes and had the attitude of a stereotypical Quebecois. That's not marketable in the US.

Crosby could have had a shot at being a marketing coup like Gretzky was, but in the age of the internet, you can no longer hide the black marks on a player. Point being, it's not the market he's in, it's simply the fact that he's a shady player on the ice.

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04-09-2012, 06:30 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
You're right in what you're saying, but I don't see how it applies to the actual realities of today's NHL. The league can only work with what it has available. They don't have a Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan that people can unite around...but Crosby isn't a bad alternative.

Think about what the league had before he came along? The lack of a centralized face for the league was a big problem in the late 90's, early 00's.
Frankly, I believe the league has lots of guys they can market. They choose to market Crosby, and frankly, I don't think it's working.

For all the talk about Crosby, he's not a generational talent. He's not in the league of a guy like Gretzky or Lemieux. And IMO, they don't need a generational talent to market their sport. What they need to stop doing is trying to "control" what their fans like/want. Unfortunately, the NHL is really a good ol boy network when compared to other leagues. The end result is that you get a lot of washed up athletes and friends of friends who really don't know how to get the job done. It's why you keep seeing the same people popping up over and over and over again.

I don't buy into the believe that hockey can't be bigger in the states. I think the problem is in the execution.

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04-09-2012, 07:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
In sports marketing there are two types of stars.

The guys who become popular because the fans gravitate towards them and the guys who are pushed on people.

The former outsells the latter every time. Crosby will never be the marketable player the NHL wants him to be. No matter how much the NHL tries to force the issue, it's just not happening. It's not working now, just like it didn't work with Mario.
I'm pretty sure we've talked about Mario before. He has a taciturn personality that tends towards a need to be idolized. An absolute hedonist. In real life--that's a hard person to get along with or put up with. The league pushed him anyway and they still push him.

Orr, Howe, Gretzky, Messier--much better personalities and in reality they were all equal if not better players.

Crosby rates very high though in terms of generational player in my mind. Missing a season and a half and still putting up in the neighborhood of 1.5 points a game. For comparison Marc Staal--close to an elite shutdown defenseman is still looking for his game with somewhat less of a concussion problem. I respect the **** out of Crosby as a player. He has drive and creativity. I don't think I like his personality so much but I also think that Lemieux's crapola personality informs it a bit. Wish that it were not so.

I agree that the NHL shouldn't stick all its eggs in one basket. There are plenty of other players and avenues they can develop.

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04-09-2012, 08:18 PM
  #82
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It seems like Crosby is universally disliked by almost everyone except Pens fans and some Team Canada fans. Many fans don't hold him in high regard, and it's becoming more and more apparent that people involved in the NHL, whether it be the players, coaches, or analysts like Milbury, have little respect for him. It's a pointless endeavor for the league to throw their marketing eggs all in one basket with a player like that.

I think Gretzky was a great ambassador for the game and was comfortable in that role. I'm not sure I can say the same for Crosby. Asides from the obvious diving and whining complaints, he can sometimes come off as disinterested or disengaged during interviews or at media events. However, him being thrust into this role is not totally his fault... the NHL chose him when there are plenty of other marketable personalities and talents in the league.

For example, our very own team has a player that the NHL can market in Henrik Lundqvist. He's talented, personable, works hard, is respected by most players and fans (sans Devils fans and Marty ), and it doesn't hurt that he's ridiculously good-looking.

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04-10-2012, 02:31 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
I'm pretty sure we've talked about Mario before. He has a taciturn personality that tends towards a need to be idolized. An absolute hedonist. In real life--that's a hard person to get along with or put up with. The league pushed him anyway and they still push him.

Orr, Howe, Gretzky, Messier--much better personalities and in reality they were all equal if not better players.

Crosby rates very high though in terms of generational player in my mind. Missing a season and a half and still putting up in the neighborhood of 1.5 points a game. For comparison Marc Staal--close to an elite shutdown defenseman is still looking for his game with somewhat less of a concussion problem. I respect the **** out of Crosby as a player. He has drive and creativity. I don't think I like his personality so much but I also think that Lemieux's crapola personality informs it a bit. Wish that it were not so.

I agree that the NHL shouldn't stick all its eggs in one basket. There are plenty of other players and avenues they can develop.
Crosby is immensely talentd, but I'm not sure I view him as generational. He's more in line with a Joe Sakic or Steve Yzerman type. And for the record, I don't consider a guy like Messier a generational talent either.

In conclusion, I can't help but be reminded of something Michael Jordan said about the NBA once - "Too often nowadays the league tries to create stars before they've earned it." He then referenced how guys like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird created themselves.

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04-10-2012, 03:01 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Crosby is immensely talentd, but I'm not sure I view him as generational. He's more in line with a Joe Sakic or Steve Yzerman type. And for the record, I don't consider a guy like Messier a generational talent either.

In conclusion, I can't help but be reminded of something Michael Jordan said about the NBA once - "Too often nowadays the league tries to create stars before they've earned it." He then referenced how guys like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird created themselves.
I get your point. Orr's effect on the game was almost revolutionary. A defenseman always on the attack was unheard of before he came along. One who could lead the league in scoring? Never happened before and hasn't since. And he wasn't bad in his own end either. For my money the best player ever--and a nice guy on and off the ice. He played for a nasty team tough.

Gretzky just eclipsed every scoring record that came his way. Rewrote the record book. Maybe a spoiled brat for a while but almost always a very good spokesman for the game.

Crosby is a step ahead of Yzerman and Sakic--at least to me. It might not be a large step but he is IMO the most creative player in the game today. Maybe Erik Karlsson will pass him by though.

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04-10-2012, 06:48 PM
  #85
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"Pittsburgh's untouchable, let's get that straight," Roenick said. "If you say something bad about them, they're going to complain, they're going to whine, they're going to revolt against you. The fans are going to *****-slap you all over Twitter. They're gonna attack you. God help anybody if you're gonna say anything negative about the Pittsburgh Penguins. They're like the almighty."



Despite Roenick's criticism of the club, he still enjoys watching the Penguins play and believes they are the favourite to win the Stanley Cup.

"They're a phenomenal team," Roenick explained. "I love watching Malkin and Crosby and all them. But you can't say anything bad about them and not get backlash, complaining from those camps. I wish they'd just go and play and we can all have fun watching them. They have the best chance to win the Cup."

He did not agree with Mike Milbury after the NHL analyst apologized after publicly ripping Penguins centre Sidney Crosby.

"I wouldn't have apologized," Roenick explained. "I don't know if I would have said exactly what Mike Milbury said, but he did and he had to apologize. I don't know if I could, if I believed it. That's just me. But Mike does things his way."

The former NHL superstar also took issue with the league and how often they fine players and coaches for expressing their opinions. Roenick compared their practices to a dictatorship.

"I don't understand why John Tortorella [got] fined. That's his opinion. I can't stand in the National Hockey League how they can just throw fines when they want when they don't like when something is said. I thought it was freedom of speech in the United State. You can say what you want. And I think the players should be able to speak their minds, too. It's too much of a dictatorship from that aspect, where the National Hockey League tries to control too much."
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/...hable_whiners/

Ofcourse, the Pens fans will say that he's jealous...

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04-10-2012, 07:15 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
I get your point. Orr's effect on the game was almost revolutionary. A defenseman always on the attack was unheard of before he came along. One who could lead the league in scoring? Never happened before and hasn't since. And he wasn't bad in his own end either. For my money the best player ever--and a nice guy on and off the ice. He played for a nasty team tough.

Gretzky just eclipsed every scoring record that came his way. Rewrote the record book. Maybe a spoiled brat for a while but almost always a very good spokesman for the game.

Crosby is a step ahead of Yzerman and Sakic--at least to me. It might not be a large step but he is IMO the most creative player in the game today. Maybe Erik Karlsson will pass him by though.
Interesting take on Crosby. I agree, he is an immensely talented, elite, player. But I've always felt he was more in line with the guys I previously mentioned. To me, a generational talent isn't just among the leagues elite, he's head and shoulders above the best of the best. Crosby is right there in that mix, but I can't say that in a given year that he is head and shoulders above guys like Ovechkin, Stamkos or Malkin, or in any given year, a few other guys. He's among the leaders, but he's not league's ahead.

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04-10-2012, 07:20 PM
  #87
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No way is Crosby better than the Yzerman category.

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04-10-2012, 07:22 PM
  #88
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Why not Stamkos? Likeable guy too...
If Jordan's Bulls sucked, it wouldn't have helped Jordan's marketability. He still would have been popular, but take away his 5 or 6 rings and he wouldn't have been nearly as big.

Stamkos has to prove he's more than big stats, he has to prove he's a winner. (Unfortunately) that's something that Crosby has done and why he is the NHL's poster boy.

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04-10-2012, 07:35 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
If Jordan's Bulls sucked, it wouldn't have helped Jordan's marketability. He still would have been popular, but take away his 5 or 6 rings and he wouldn't have been nearly as big.

Stamkos has to prove he's more than big stats, he has to prove he's a winner. (Unfortunately) that's something that Crosby has done and why he is the NHL's poster boy.
While you do bring up a good point that Stamkos might have to win to be marketed, Crosby was being marketed even before he won the cup in '09. If they can market Crosby before he was a "winner", I don't understand why they can't market Stamkos.

Even better, why don't they market a player like Toews, who is already a winner.

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04-10-2012, 09:28 PM
  #90
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The thing I don't like about the Pen's fan base is that they must be some of the most self-entitled cocky fans in the history of sports. The majority of them just immediately dismiss negative comments about their team or players, and the two most frequent reasons are either A)-You're just jealous, or B)- The person is an idiot/moron, so therefor they have no merit on whatever he/she is talking about. Then whenever a fellow Penguin fan says something sarcastic about the article like "Oh but the Pens were the worst team for 5 years straight how could they POSSIBLY be this good now????" you'll see multiple other Pens fans patting him/her on the back adding even more sarcastic remarks to make the OP's article/statement seem even more ridiculous and less accurate. Its prevalent in almost every main board discussion that is about the ****sburgh Penguins. Its almost sickening. End rant haha.

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04-10-2012, 09:35 PM
  #91
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Newsflash to those who haven't realized it already that are newcomers on HF:

Don't visit the main board. There is never any reason to and everything that's ever said there is entirely stupid because you have all 30 fanbases arguing against each other usually and it's all sarcasm and ********.

If you like arguing, sure, go there. And go to other team boards as well.

As for me, I just read the Rangers board...and I find out all the information I need to know either visiting here or elsewhere on the web. I've never found anything out from the main board. After year 1 I got sick of it.

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04-10-2012, 09:49 PM
  #92
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The blatant, over the top favortism the league arrogantly gives to ****sburgh is an out and out disgrace! They can't lose fast enough to please me.
You got that right. Hope they go straight after cindy right away.

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04-10-2012, 10:06 PM
  #93
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JR joins the club:



http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/...hable_whiners/

Ofcourse, the Pens fans will say that he's jealous...
That's all they ever say. Horrible fanbase. Whenever someone says something they just derail the thread and post pictures. And no matter how many times they are warned, they continue.

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