Subban-Gorges
Markov-Emelin
Kaberle-XXXX
Diaz, St. Denis, Weber or a FA, possibly even Tinordi if he has a really good camp
Not horrible, but not great. Would like it if we could get a solid 3rd pairing D, maybe package Weber and St. Denis for one.
Which GM in his right mind would trade a "solid" Dman for Woe-ber and St-Denis? I think about the situations in which the best defensive just killed off a 4-minute penalty and the coach sent out Kaberle with Woe-ber or Diaz. It struck me how vulnerable the Habs looked. Even Campoli looked better. St-Denis is a bit of an upgrade but he's small and can be taken advantage of.
Anyone care to look at the stats? Defense is supposed to prevent goals against. Montreal was 11th in the league in goals against. Only 3 teams in the Eastern Conference allowed fewer - the Rangers, Boston, New Jersey. That's it. Montreal gave up fewer goals than Pittsburgh, Florida, Philly, Buffalo and Ottawa.
(Remember, shootouts don't count, since there's no defensemen on the ice, so don't just go looking at the standings and tell me I'm wrong. Montreal gave up 214 real goals last year, 11th best in the league).
The defense gets a bad rep. Everyone thinks they're awful. Truth be told, they're not, or at least they're not so bad that Price can't bail them out. We remember how Campoli sucked, especially in his first few games. How Subban made some awful errors early on that ended up in the back of the net. How Kaberle let a guy walk around him and score. This group gets labelled hilariously "soft", despite the presence of two guys that hit like trucks (Subban and Emelin, who was # 4 in the whole bloody league in hits), not to mention having Gorges who leads the league in blocked shots, 51 blocks ahead of the next guy. Those guys aren't soft, and that's half the top 6. Add in some very good puck movers in Markov and Kaberle (not to mention Subban) and that's a pretty good well-rounded group.
I'm all for signing one second-pairing guy next year, ditching Campoli, sending St-Denis back to Hamilton and using Emelin as a # 6 guy, leaving Diaz and Weber as extras.
With Markov for a whole season plus a coach that doesn't hate Subban much less benching the guy, plus a decent system with forwards who know what they're doing, and the current bunch will be a lot better next season. A decent $3 million # 4 UFA signing will make it much more than playoff worthy.
Anyone care to look at the stats? Defense is supposed to prevent goals against. Montreal was 11th in the league in goals against. Only 3 teams in the Eastern Conference allowed fewer - the Rangers, Boston, New Jersey. That's it. Montreal gave up fewer goals than Pittsburgh, Florida, Philly, Buffalo and Ottawa.
(Remember, shootouts don't count, since there's no defensemen on the ice, so don't just go looking at the standings and tell me I'm wrong. Montreal gave up 214 real goals last year, 11th best in the league).
The defense gets a bad rep. Everyone thinks they're awful. Truth be told, they're not, or at least they're not so bad that Price can't bail them out. We remember how Campoli sucked, especially in his first few games. How Subban made some awful errors early on that ended up in the back of the net. How Kaberle let a guy walk around him and score. This group gets labelled hilariously "soft", despite the presence of two guys that hit like trucks (Subban and Emelin, who was # 4 in the whole bloody league in hits), not to mention having Gorges who leads the league in blocked shots, 51 blocks ahead of the next guy. Those guys aren't soft, and that's half the top 6. Add in some very good puck movers in Markov and Kaberle (not to mention Subban) and that's a pretty good well-rounded group.
I'm all for signing one second-pairing guy next year, ditching Campoli, sending St-Denis back to Hamilton and using Emelin as a # 6 guy, leaving Diaz and Weber as extras.
With Markov for a whole season plus a coach that doesn't hate Subban much less benching the guy, plus a decent system with forwards who know what they're doing, and the current bunch will be a lot better next season. A decent $3 million # 4 UFA signing will make it much more than playoff worthy.
I pretty much agree with your observation here. Funny how polarized the posters are about this - some feel the defense can get the job done as-is or with one 2nd/3rd pairing signing, while others feel the majority of the current D is atrocious.
Anyone care to look at the stats? Defense is supposed to prevent goals against. Montreal was 11th in the league in goals against. Only 3 teams in the Eastern Conference allowed fewer - the Rangers, Boston, New Jersey. That's it. Montreal gave up fewer goals than Pittsburgh, Florida, Philly, Buffalo and Ottawa.
(Remember, shootouts don't count, since there's no defensemen on the ice, so don't just go looking at the standings and tell me I'm wrong. Montreal gave up 214 real goals last year, 11th best in the league).
The defense gets a bad rep. Everyone thinks they're awful. Truth be told, they're not, or at least they're not so bad that Price can't bail them out. We remember how Campoli sucked, especially in his first few games. How Subban made some awful errors early on that ended up in the back of the net. How Kaberle let a guy walk around him and score. This group gets labelled hilariously "soft", despite the presence of two guys that hit like trucks (Subban and Emelin, who was # 4 in the whole bloody league in hits), not to mention having Gorges who leads the league in blocked shots, 51 blocks ahead of the next guy. Those guys aren't soft, and that's half the top 6. Add in some very good puck movers in Markov and Kaberle (not to mention Subban) and that's a pretty good well-rounded group.
I'm all for signing one second-pairing guy next year, ditching Campoli, sending St-Denis back to Hamilton and using Emelin as a # 6 guy, leaving Diaz and Weber as extras.
With Markov for a whole season plus a coach that doesn't hate Subban much less benching the guy, plus a decent system with forwards who know what they're doing, and the current bunch will be a lot better next season. A decent $3 million # 4 UFA signing will make it much more than playoff worthy.
I pretty much agree here too. And my wish would be to fill that "UFA" slot with a proven, two way (PK and PP), "Hamrlik type" player even if it meant spending some serious bucks at the expense of Kaberle. I realize Kaberle and his PP prowess is significant but a two way, top 4 in case Markov goes down is more significant IMHO.
Grossman is a huge stay at home D-man who hits and blocks shots, also only 27. No offence to his game though. Garrison of Florida seems like a late bloomer, or could have had a one off season in the goal scoring department ( 16 ), but he is also 27 is of good size and hits and blocks shots. Garrison plays over 23min a game and Grossman almost 19. If you see Emelin as a top 4 with some progression on his part maybe you dont want one of these guys because for what theyll need to be signed for you cant play them for just 13min a game, if not , then either of these guys ( and there are several hitting stay at home D men available this year like Grossman) look good.
Just wondering what everyone thinks about our D going forward? Assuming no moves, are you comfortable what we have? Our defense consists of Markov, Subban, Gorges, Kaberle, Emelin, Diaz/Weber with St-Denis in the eighth slot.
Is this a 2012-2013 playoff contenders defense group?
I believe it has the potential to be, but I've been wrong before lol
Is this a 2012-13 contenders D?
No.
Diaz/Weber/St-Denis are not NHL grade.
Kaberle is not the right player with the mix of other D and forwards the Habs have.
At the VERY least, they need a physical player who can eat minutes. Bryan Allen is a good target.
Just wondering what everyone thinks about our D going forward? Assuming no moves, are you comfortable what we have? Our defense consists of Markov, Subban, Gorges, Kaberle, Emelin, Diaz/Weber with St-Denis in the eighth slot.
Is this a 2012-2013 playoff contenders defense group?
I believe it has the potential to be, but I've been wrong before lol
I would look to move Kaberle for late round pick if possible but if not keep him as he is depth.
Just wondering what everyone thinks about our D going forward? Assuming no moves, are you comfortable what we have? Our defense consists of Markov, Subban, Gorges, Kaberle, Emelin, Diaz/Weber with St-Denis in the eighth slot.
Is this a 2012-2013 playoff contenders defense group?
I believe it has the potential to be, but I've been wrong before lol
No I don't think so, but it would continue to be one of the softest group of defensemen in the league.
The wild card in Markov. If he can be anything close to what he was then that's huge for us, if not then we got big problems.
It's based on my observation that the Canadiens 11-12 were way too easy to shut down offensively.
There were games in the season, when the opposition overran our forwards, and had the game's ice tilted towards the habs net. Or the shots we were giving off were not of a high enough quality to be effective. Lines shut down easily...
In short, a game breaker would be really nice. We have IMO a great bunch of SOLID pieces, and 1 Gamebreaking goaltender... Adding a solid threat up front would change this team drastically.
Without that piece, we are icing 2 30 goal scorer's for the first time in 16 years (one of them popping 35, the other so young, he could have better results forthcoming)...
We also have 2 guys who should rebound to a minimum of 20 goals on both wings... (Gio & Bourque)...
Pleks... man he has been a fantastic Canadien in his heart. He had a rough season, however he ALSO contributed to our fantastic PK (a fact that should be considered). He is the leader of THIS team IMO. He's honest to a fault, and gives his 100% on the ice, and is a lock IMO for 50-70 points.
DD is coming in to his own... had a break out season, by watching his game... Natey24 has got me believing that at worst, 60 may be his FLOOR. He had one solid season to build on... and has never been denied in any other level in the past... He's on the DD express to stardom, and what's best, is that he's born in Montreal.
That being said, Eller is rounding in to be a good Center as well.. I was happy to see his 16 goals as a 3rd line Center. He still has room to grow, and has become a good option for # 3 center, with potential to grow.
LL & Geoffrion I am interested in completing the 3rd line role with Eller. Kind of a youth line. Lars IMO has become a complete player this season. He's defensively responsible, and IMO with the tenacity that LL displays, I could see him having a solid improvement come next camp.
Geoffrion I believe will fit in to the third line LW role come next year.
However we have that hopefully solid draft pick coming in, who could be ready for full time duty next season, and be a significant improvement to all of this.
Staubitz/Darche & White are wingers I am comfortable with... for a bit more offence, I would include Moen (which would be justified due to Geoffrions & LL lack of experience).
Nokelainen, Engqvist, Dumont, all given summers to work on becoming the # 4 guy (I do have to say I am MORE comfortable with this option with an entire summer of improvement in store for the guys). I think they all can improve to a point of becoming a good # 4 C.
In short, it's offensive pressure that needs to be improved on...
Losing ONE of Diaz/Weber for a physical defenceman would be a slight improvement.
Between Subban, Markov & Kaberle, we have the talent to put up over 100 Assists from the point, and add over 30 + goals between the 3 of them (Markov is a threat for 10-15, Subban as well, Kaberle between 5-10)...
Gorges & Emelin IMO are fine additions for defensive depth...
One of Weber Diaz would also be good as a # 6/7 guy... Diaz has shown some good defensive qualities as the season wore on... Weber has struggled yet again, and MAY need a change of scenery.
Adding a physical d-man IMO rounds out our line up. Preferably one with a cannon (Souray? )...
We lost an incredibly high degree of OT games via Shoot out... A gamebreaker is going to improve that. Carey is going to need to work on that a bit as well, but IMO there was improvement after the Allstar game.
All in all, as much as it is frustrating to see, IMO a high end draft pick is exactly what the doctor ordered... We have a solid incubator to harness the skill and turn it in to a star.
Add to that that the 2nds, and 3rd are here, and going to be high picks there as well, gives us a chance to really add some solid prospect depth to our team.
THN ranked us 28th in this department... IMO it will be significantly improved on, regardless to if it was justified or not.
All in all, the fresh new management will be given a significant opportunity to REALLY make an impact to this team right away.
I know it's a bit off course but in conclusion, I am saying a solid improvement to our offence, will be a great load off the back end (Price & the Defence)...
Would like to see one of or both Shane O'Brien and/or Bryan Allen on are defense next year. Gives size, toughnes and both good defensivley. O'Brien has even added some offence this year.
They would not cost a lot on the cap and would be upgrade from Diaz, Weber, St-Denis.
Playoff contenders? Ehhh... yeah sure. I'm there's a lot of what-ifs but there is enough to like about our blueline. Most of the what-ifs are those swirling around Markov - if he comes back at 100% we're doing pretty good, back at 60% and it's touch and go, suffering from some kind of permanent degenerative knee damage and we're toast. The guys just eats so many minutes and does so much right that losing him for any amount of time means terrible bad things. We don't have anyone who can replace him (not even Subban - more on him later) and we won't without saddling ourselves with a large contract right now. So a lot hinges on him.
Outside of Markov the next biggest question mark is Subban. Two season of progressively better play tells me at least that PK is going to be be the next Markov. In 4-5 years. Until then he's going to have to work on making his game work. That was his problem this season - making his stylish, offensive game mesh with the more defensive role he had to play as Markov's replacement. And he did an okay job, but it hurt his offense (and we need offense). If Markov is back next season I think we'll see Subby make a few more end to end rushes and use that speed of his. And his defensive game should improve as well.
Kaberle is Kaberle is Briesbois reborn. A good puck mover with a record of poor choices and marshmellow soft play. In the right situations he can be highly effective. In the wrong situation (like say playing with an equal defensive liability in Campoli) he's a liability.
Likewise Gorges is Gorges. Don't expect surprises out of him, but he's defensively sound and that counts for a lot.
Emelin. Like this kid. He's a predator on the ice and he's fairly fast too. Be interesting to see him play an entire season with Subban - I think their speed and styles would compliment. Might need to put a Staubitz out there on every shift though to keep the "you made me look a fool I will fight you" knuckle draggers in line.
Campoli. Goodbye.
Diaz/St. Denis/Weber is a bit sticky. We already have three puck movers (Markov, Subban and Kaberle) and neither is really good enough to push one of those guys out (Kaberle might get a lot of grief, but he's still quite good at what he does). We have one two way guy (Gorges) one physical guy (Emelin) and in reality we need another guy like one ofthose two more than we need one of the three here. At the same time it'd be hard to let any of these guys go. Diaz is quite sound in his own end and might be the best out of this lot. Weber just doesn't have enough depth to his game to cut it. St. Denis is hard to judge, but strikes me as a Diaz-lite. I'd rather get a good physical defensemen, consign one of these guys to the press box and ditch the rest if possible.
I wish we could get rid of Kaberle. Just not a fit IMHO. We need another experienced guy who plays tough/tough minutes in the top-4. Like the Barret Jackman, Bryan Allen, etc types mentioned in the UFA threads. And maybe a lesser version of the same for even more depth (like Salvador, O'Brien, etc). Then it goes:
Markov-UFA
Gorges-Subban
Emelin-Diaz
St.Denis-UFA
I've liked St.Denis quite a lot in his cameos. I assume we go into camp with him and Weber duking it out. I won't be afraid to waive Weber instead of St.Denis if my hunch that St.Denis wins pans out. But I also wouldn't pre-emptively move Weber out either. Sooner or later, even 8 D won't be enough. Maybe as soon as training camp if somebody falls again to injury. I'd rather be blessed with options and waive a guy in October than chuck him away for a mid-late draft pick today.
I figure the top-4 UFA defenseman is going to be a pricey long-term commitment. You are obliged to overpay on the UFA market. So it's probably something like a minimum 4-year commitment at $4M+ per, and it will seem to many that it's pricey and scary for the kind of d-man it buys us. But if we get the right one, it will be worth the premium, since we need one so much.
The other UFA-dman can be a veteran scrap heap guy, pretty high priority on making it only a 1-year deal, since I will want to at least have a door open for some of our young prospect D in forthcoming years (but not so soon as next season).
I wish we could get rid of Kaberle. Just not a fit IMHO. We need another experienced guy who plays tough/tough minutes in the top-4. Like the Barret Jackman, Bryan Allen, etc types mentioned in the UFA threads. And maybe a lesser version of the same for even more depth (like Salvador, O'Brien, etc). Then it goes:
Markov-UFA
Gorges-Subban
Emelin-Diaz
St.Denis-UFA
I've liked St.Denis quite a lot in his cameos. I assume we go into camp with him and Weber duking it out. I won't be afraid to waive Weber instead of St.Denis if my hunch that St.Denis wins pans out. But I also wouldn't pre-emptively move Weber out either. Sooner or later, even 8 D won't be enough. Maybe as soon as training camp if somebody falls again to injury. I'd rather be blessed with options and waive a guy in October than chuck him away for a mid-late draft pick today.
I figure the top-4 UFA defenseman is going to be a pricey long-term commitment. You are obliged to overpay on the UFA market. So it's probably something like a minimum 4-year commitment at $4M+ per, and it will seem to many that it's pricey and scary for the kind of d-man it buys us. But if we get the right one, it will be worth the premium, since we need one so much.
The other UFA-dman can be a veteran scrap heap guy, pretty high priority on making it only a 1-year deal, since I will want to at least have a door open for some of our young prospect D in forthcoming years (but not so soon as next season).
pretty much agree completely.
only difference is that I'm still "bullish" on Weber, despite the inconsistent & disappointing year he had.
I suspect he'll be pushing Diaz for the 3rd pairing spot more so than competing with St-Denis for the 7-8th spot.
don't want to lose him on waivers however, so if he's not looking much improved in camp, i hope our new GM can find a way to get some value in return for him.
Stuart, Jackman, Allen are all solid fits for the top-4 (aside from the obvious/unlikely notion of Suter), and a 1-year deal for a depth gritty guy would also make a ton of sense.
guys like Sarich, Hannan, Souray, Salvadore all make sense, though I imagine they'll all be looking for a team where they can get an opening day top-6 role.
I don't agree, Markov before his injury was better than both of where Subban and Gorges are at currently, if he's not the old Markov the Habs are missing a stud. Suter would be an insane fit for this team, I don't see him signing here, but I think a stud on D is still missing. Maybe people are forgetting how good Markov was and what a difference he made, having an arguable top 10 in the league defencemen was a freaking treat while it lasted.
I'd say Subban is on the verge of being better than Markov was on evens. No comparison to the powerplay dominance that Markov had (probably best in the league at that time) which was were a good chunk of Markov's value was at.
Call me optimistic but i don't think the Habs D's and the Habs entirely are in such a bad situation. Sure, things needs to be done but let's see here. Are top D, who miss more then 100 games the last 2 seasons, only played 13 games this season, while getting back in shape this summer and with a full camp next year, i'm confident he will be a good part of the team next season
Will he ever be as good as before is injury? Logicaly not, but if a D that was arguably consider amond the top 10 of the league, remains among the top 30, well, i can live with that....
So MARKOV...
PK Subban is a future star of this league on defense... he will only get better in time on every aspect of his game, he is a STUD!!!
So MARKOV-SUBBAN
Gorges is a reliable defenseman, a leader, a shot blocker, a leader, a great player on penalty kill, did i say a leader?
So MARKOV-SUBBAN-GORGES
Campoli is gone we all know that...
Kaberle should be gone, but it is doubtfull, so let's make sure he gets a good training program this summer, and we will live to see another day with that guy
So MARKOV-SUBBAN-GORGES-KABERLE
Now 4 guys: Diaz, Weber, St-Denis, Emelin
Weber is sign for another year, he's the youngest, he's sign for another year, he as a good shot on the PP so a job among the top seven is his to lose, unless he gets traded
So MARKOV-SUBBAN-GORGES-KABERLE-WEBER
The other 3 are restricted free agents, are older 25-26 and were all playing for the first time in the NHL this season, we all know that if Markov was healthy from the start and Gill was not traded, only one of these three would have had time in the league this season. As much as they all bring something to the game, choices as to be made.
if the Habs gets rid of Weber in a trade, Diaz offensive habilities would still be needed on this team, let's all remeber that in 59 games, he got 16 points which makes it probably around 22 points for 82 games, maybe 26-28 on a contender, which is pretty good for a rookie
if you keep Weber, than the physicality of Emelin is definetly more important, and his acclimation to the NHL and a new langage was probably harder then what Diaz at to go through and i'm sure that he would get better offensive number in a second year...
If you need to keep Kaberle and can find on the market a reliable defensive D to cover his Arse, maybe St-Denis could be a good fit.
If i had to pick one, i'd go with Emelin, what he brings is much harder to find....
so MARKOV-SUBBAN-GORGES-KABERLE-WEBER-EMELIN
now what else
there is still a possibility that we resign Diaz or St-Denis or both (i'm sure we could get St-Denis on a two-way which makes him the best options for injury call up from Hamilton....)
In Hamilton we will have for sure these guys who just ended there junior or collegiate carreer: TINORDI, ELLIS, PATERYN, NASH (hopes he comes back) If Beaulieu leaves St-Johns, add him up.... We could have an AHL D roster of:Tinordi, Ellis, Pateryn, Nash, Beaulieu. Let say we sign St-Denis and Alex Henry we'll have a young core, but a good core to work with
as for FA, i think we need to try an experience D to our mix, let's forget Suter, which should not happen.... Here are a few options that we can maybe target
Dennis Wideman (interesting but will cost too much, but would be another offensive weapon)
Matt Carle (young and offensively gifted, could be usefull)
Jason Garrison (had a very good season, but will probably cost too much)
Carlo Coloaicovo (is not use offensively much anymore in St-Louis behind Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo)
And defensively: Brad Stuart, Bryan Allen or Barrett Jackman
if i would target 3, it would be Jackman, Coloaicovo or Matt Carle....
Should be the depth chart out of training camp but personnaly i think markov is done, yes he still can play effective nhl hockey thats not an issue but his day as a #1 guy are done
His lost a lot of mobility, guys were passing by him like he was hal gill, that will also hurt his oofensive production as showed this year with 0 goals 3 assists in 13 games
...
guys like Sarich, Hannan, Souray, Salvadore all make sense, though I imagine they'll all be looking for a team where they can get an opening day top-6 role.
Well, they probably don't know who Diaz, Emelin, St.Denis, or Weber are... so as far as they're concerned, you are signing them to be the #5 guy.
And who knows, they might even end up there. We probably represent better optics on an opening day top-6 role to some of those guys than many other teams might.
His lost a lot of mobility, guys were passing by him like he was hal gill, that will also hurt his oofensive production as showed this year with 0 goals 3 assists in 13 games
I wouldn't put anything into what Markov looked like since he was clearly going to be rusty and he was playing against people that had be playing hockey for months. I'm not saying that he won't have problems next year, but at this point who knows what we will see from Markov next season after he has all summer to work on the knee and a full training camp/preseason.
Imo Markov could come back and be something close to what he once was with us, or he could never be anything close to what he was, at this point it's anyones guess but I wouldn't base opinions off what we saw in his limited action.
It's actually a very tough spot for the new GM over the summer as they are going to have to gamble one way or the other on what level Markov can play next season and beyond.
Anyone care to look at the stats? Defense is supposed to prevent goals against. Montreal was 11th in the league in goals against. Only 3 teams in the Eastern Conference allowed fewer - the Rangers, Boston, New Jersey. That's it. Montreal gave up fewer goals than Pittsburgh, Florida, Philly, Buffalo and Ottawa.
(Remember, shootouts don't count, since there's no defensemen on the ice, so don't just go looking at the standings and tell me I'm wrong. Montreal gave up 214 real goals last year, 11th best in the league).
The defense gets a bad rep. Everyone thinks they're awful. Truth be told, they're not, or at least they're not so bad that Price can't bail them out.
I disagree.
That defense lacks a lot to be desire still. A few years ago Toronto fans would comes up with the exact same argument toward their offense: "the offense is not the problem, we finished top10 in scoring". Reality is they were sacrifying a lot of defense to provided such offense.
Transpose this to the habs of this year, it's the same picture for the defense. Of course we did good in the GA, we played accordingly all year long sacrifying a lot of potential offense doing so (and let's not underestimated Price).
If that defense doesnt add a top end defenseman, it's still going to be better than this year by simple logic: 1 more season of experience for an unproven defense. It might very well be enough to reach the playoffs again, but it sure is not worthy of showing the 11th best GA in the league without sacrifying yet again a lot of offense.
I'd pay a premium for a guy like Suter. I know it is probably not realistic but he would bring absolutly everything this team defense lack.
I'm glad that most here think this D squad is no contender. Thinking otherwise is just dreaming in color. This D could not stand two PO rounds, let alone two months of PO.
Note that we are talking strictly about the D squad, not the forwards nor the system because those affect your overall defense.
This team needs at least one rugged sandpaper big D who can withstand playoff hockey.
I'm glad that most here think this D squad is no contender. Thinking otherwise is just dreaming in color. This D could not stand two PO rounds, let alone two months of PO.
Note that we are talking strictly about the D squad, not the forwards nor the system because those affect your overall defense.
This team needs at least one rugged sandpaper big D who can withstand playoff hockey.
I agree with you.
The season ended a couple of days ago and people have already forgotten the leads that the Habs blew in the third period.
People have already forgotten how easily opposing teams kept the puck in our D Zone. People have forgotten how easy it was for opposing teams to screen Price with our inability to move players away from the crease.
I dont get the love the Diaz. He is below average on defense and barely average offensively. Weber is a failure here as he is the softest of the soft. Campoli needs no description. Kaberle is horrible on D. St-Denis is nowhere ready for the NHL.
But I see next year's lineups containing Diaz, Weber, Kaberle, St-Denis as if this season never happened.
If we do not get two bigger and stronger D Men on this team for next season, look for more of what got us to the last place finish.
Again, I dont get the love for mediocre and average small DMen that a lot of people have here.
)... 
