HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Are defensive forwards overrated?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-09-2006, 01:13 PM
  #51
Choice
Registered User
 
Choice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: nyc
Country: Lithuania
Posts: 3,466
vCash: 500
The thing is that playing a defensive forward role takes a lot less skill than that off a playmaker or a sniper. You need some defensive forwards to win, but they are much easier to find. Offensive talent is a rare thing.

I bet that if you took most of the games great point producers to play defensive roles, they could do it, but it would be a waste. Strong defensive forwards however, can't score or make plays, or else they would be doing it.

Choice is offline  
Old
02-09-2006, 03:55 PM
  #52
Habsaku
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan
If you had five Lehtinens and five Spezza's with equivalent goalies net, who would you take?
Five Lehtinens without even thinking about it. Spezza is so overrated around the league its not even funny. You're talking about the best defensive forward in the league, a guy which people in Dallas think is more valuable then Modano. Look at Spezza play, I cannot imagine him in the playoffs, he will be shut down so easily it wont be funny. Every time the going gets rough, he puts his head in his neck. Can you even imagine him against a playoff Robert Holik and a playoff Scott Stevens? He will be destroyed, as simple as that, did you see him get pasted by freaking Malik? I do mean Marek Malik. Didnt he get concussion like syndromes? Replace that and imagine him on the ice with Scott Stevens... We wouldnt talk of him in the same breath after thats foresure. Alsodont give me +- as an argument, when you have Hasek, Chara, Redden, Philips, Mezsaros, Volchenkov, Alfredsson and such on the ice with you, you're boneheaded plays wont be noticed as much.

Great offensive players also have well rounded games. Staal, Crosby, Sakic, Yzerman, Modano and such.These guys dont play only on one end of the rink, tahts why they're value will be that much greater in the playoffs. Also, the post-season is all about close games. When you have Jere Lehtinen or Robert Holik on the ice, you know you,re not gonna get scored upon because they're play will elevate even more during important games. Thats when the fact they only get 1 point every 1 and half game becomes crucial. Its the difference between losing and winning. Its all about clutch and paying the price.

I'll take Bob Gainey anytime thank you, theres no overrating there. He was that good.


Last edited by Habsaku: 02-09-2006 at 04:01 PM.
Habsaku is offline  
Old
02-09-2006, 04:00 PM
  #53
Habsaku
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyChoice
The thing is that playing a defensive forward role takes a lot less skill than that off a playmaker or a sniper. You need some defensive forwards to win, but they are much easier to find. Offensive talent is a rare thing.

I bet that if you took most of the games great point producers to play defensive roles, they could do it, but it would be a waste. Strong defensive forwards however, can't score or make plays, or else they would be doing it.
Tell me then, did you know that Carbonneau was an offensive star before getting to the NHL? If anything, defensive play is underrated. The fact people say defensive roles take a lot less skill is a proof of that. If that we're true, then why do elite hockey talents like Kovalchuk and Spezza still have problems in that regard? Wouldnt there rare skill allow them to learn that side of the game even faster then the regular player? Ever thought that smarts was also a skill? Not everyone is born with Math skills, not everyone is born with hockey smarts either. Thats a skill, and damn good one at that. There are very few players I'd take over Brind'Amour.

Habsaku is offline  
Old
02-09-2006, 04:06 PM
  #54
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsaku
Five Lehtinens without even thinking about it. Spezza is so overrated around the league its not even funny. You're talking about the best defensive forward in the league, a guy which people in Dallas think is more valuable then Modano. Look at Spezza play, I cannot imagine him in the playoffs, he will be shut down so easily it wont be funny. Every time the going gets rough, he puts his head in his neck. Can you even imagine him against a playoff Robert Holik and a playoff Scott Stevens? He will be destroyed, as simple as that, did you see him get pasted by freaking Malik? I do mean Marek Malik. Didnt he get concussion like syndromes? Replace that and imagine him on the ice with Scott Stevens... We wouldnt talk of him in the same breath after thats foresure. Alsodont give me +- as an argument, when you have Hasek, Chara, Redden, Philips, Mezsaros, Volchenkov, Alfredsson and such on the ice with you, you're boneheaded plays wont be noticed as much.

Great offensive players also have well rounded games. Staal, Crosby, Sakic, Yzerman, Modano and such.These guys dont play only on one end of the rink, tahts why they're value will be that much greater in the playoffs. Also, the post-season is all about close games. When you have Jere Lehtinen or Robert Holik on the ice, you know you,re not gonna get scored upon because they're play will elevate even more during important games. Thats when the fact they only get 1 point every 1 and half game becomes crucial. Its the difference between losing and winning. Its all about clutch and paying the price.

I'll take Bob Gainey anytime thank you, theres no overrating there. He was that good.
That is an unfair question, Lehtinen has offensive ability. The correct question is "Who would you rather have, 5 Spezzas and a goalie or 5 Kris Drapers and a goalie."

I'll take the Spezzas.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
02-09-2006, 04:19 PM
  #55
Habsaku
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
That is an unfair question, Lehtinen has offensive ability. The correct question is "Who would you rather have, 5 Spezzas and a goalie or 5 Kris Drapers and a goalie."

I'll take the Spezzas.
So now defensive forwards cant have ability? You do realize that players can play in more then one zone and excell?

Playoff game
Draper-Draper-Draper
vs
Spezza-Spezza-Spezza

?


yeah, I still take Draper by a mile. He's elevated his play every playoffs up to now. He's shut down the best, he's willing to use his face as a shot blocker and he's can score the opportunistic goal. Spezza has been a major disapointment all his life in the post-season. He just cant stand getting hit. Thats what happens when you float, you do boneheaded plays, you dont pay the price and you cant backcheck properly.

Habsaku is offline  
Old
02-09-2006, 04:25 PM
  #56
Mr Brownstone
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: 596 miles away
Country: United States
Posts: 4,897
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Mr Brownstone Send a message via MSN to Mr Brownstone Send a message via Yahoo to Mr Brownstone
Defense creates offense. Remember that. You can't create rushes without taking care of your own zone first because you are bound to be there at some point. The transition game is the most important part of offense and I'd rather have three responsible forwards than three irresponsible floaters. Defensive forwards create opportunities for themselves through defense. Essentially, it's just a longer process of creating chances than offensive forwards who seem to always be in the right place at the right time.

Mr Brownstone is offline  
Old
02-09-2006, 04:33 PM
  #57
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
OK, let's put thin into perspective. Many of you are clouding the argument.

The best offensive player ever: Wayne Gretzky

or

The best defensive player ever: Bob Gainey


I'll take Wayne, thank you.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
02-09-2006, 05:09 PM
  #58
Mr Brownstone
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: 596 miles away
Country: United States
Posts: 4,897
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Mr Brownstone Send a message via MSN to Mr Brownstone Send a message via Yahoo to Mr Brownstone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
OK, let's put thin into perspective. Many of you are clouding the argument.

The best offensive player ever: Wayne Gretzky

or

The best defensive player ever: Bob Gainey


I'll take Wayne, thank you.
You're clouding this argument. The topic asks if defensive forwards are overrated. When's the last time you heard Gainey's name in a discussion about elite forwards? You're oversimplifying this too much. This isn't a cut-and-dry, one example answer.

Mr Brownstone is offline  
Old
02-19-2006, 10:42 PM
  #59
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
I think Team Canada's performance in the Olympics is making a great case for my theory.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
02-19-2006, 11:09 PM
  #60
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,793
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I think Team Canada's performance in the Olympics is making a great case for my theory.
Predictable post. Are you trying to pin Canada's play thus far on Doan and Draper? Doan and Draper's performance have been far from Canada's biggest concern. The lack of production/sub-standard performances from players like Bertuzzi, Nash, Thornton, Heatley, Richards, Lecavalier and St. Louis is the reason Canada is in the position they're in.

If you want an overrated thread involving Team Canada, it might be: "Are round-robins in international competitions with a medal round overrated?"

If you want to see the value of a checking line in international play, pop in a tape of the 2003 Gold Medal Game, and watch Draper-Doan-Maltby shut down Peter Forsberg in one of the great checking line performances in Canadian history. Or watch Canada's best line from the 2004 World Cup, the DDT line (Draper-Doan-Thornton), which didn't surrender an even strength goal the first five games of the tournament, and intimidated opposing defencemen with their fierce forechecking.

God Bless Canada is offline  
Old
02-19-2006, 11:13 PM
  #61
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Predictable post. Are you trying to pin Canada's play thus far on Doan and Draper? Doan and Draper's performance have been far from Canada's biggest concern. The lack of production/sub-standard performances from players like Bertuzzi, Nash, Thornton, Heatley, Richards, Lecavalier and St. Louis is the reason Canada is in the position they're in.

If you want an overrated thread involving Team Canada, it might be: "Are round-robins in international competitions with a medal round overrated?"

If you want to see the value of a checking line in international play, pop in a tape of the 2003 Gold Medal Game, and watch Draper-Doan-Maltby shut down Peter Forsberg in one of the great checking line performances in Canadian history. Or watch Canada's best line from the 2004 World Cup, the DDT line (Draper-Doan-Thornton), which didn't surrender an even strength goal the first five games of the tournament, and intimidated opposing defencemen with their fierce forechecking.
My point is, Staal, Spezza, Crosby and Tanguay would be doing a lot more to help the team than having nearly the entire forward brigade made up of defense first types.

When you are shutout twice in a row it means you lack dynamic offensive production. Picking players based on what they did 2 or 3 years ago and the fact that they are responsibe defensively is hurting the team. You NEED some gifted offensive players, you can't just check teams into submission. Youthful, pure offensive ability would give this team the spark it needs.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
02-19-2006, 11:38 PM
  #62
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,793
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
My point is, Staal, Spezza, Crosby and Tanguay would be doing a lot more to help the team than having nearly the entire forward brigade made up of defense first types.

When you are shutout twice in a row it means you lack dynamic offensive production. Picking players based on what they did 2 or 3 years ago and the fact that they are responsibe defensively is hurting the team. You NEED some gifted offensive players, you can't just check teams into submission. Youthful, pure offensive ability would give this team the spark it needs.
There are gifted offensive players. Nash, Thornton, Heatley, Lecavalier, Richards, Iginla, etc. They haven't always shown it at different times this year, but to deny their offensive prowess would be a mistake.

The two consecutive shutout losses are symptomatic of a problem far greater than a lack of offensive talent. It's reflective of a lack of desperation and urgency in the play of the team as a whole. It's reflective of not playing as a team and not making adequate use of your linemates. It's reflective of starting poorly in back-to-back games, falling behind 2-0 in both, and then trying to mount a comeback against teams that skate well and execute strong defensive systems.

And in this instance, it's reflective of what we saw at the 2002 Olympics and the 2003 and 2004 World Championships: Team Canada starts slowly, struggles to adjust to the Olympic-sized ice and the international rules, and doesn't mesh as a cohesive unit. (Am I the only one who hasn't forgotten the awe-inspiring third period comeback that led to a 2-2 tie against Austria in the opener of the 2004 Worlds?) This happens every time for this country on the big ice. Why didn't we have the struggles in the 2004 World Cup, when Canada played a steady, consistent tournament from the start? It was played on NHL-sized ice, with Canada playing their games in Canada.

The offensive talent is there. They've shown it this year. Guys like Thornton, Gagne and Heatley are among league statistical leaders. Richards is 20 months removed from winning the Conn Smythe and finishing in the top 10 in scoring. Lecavalier was the MVP of the World Cup. Iginla and Nash tied for the league lead in goals in 2003-04. Do we even need to talk about some of St. Louis' accolades? And these guys are defence-oriented?

I'd don't care how much offensive talent you have, if you don't play as a cohesive unit, and don't give it everything you've got, you're not going to produce.

Today's game vs. Finland is actually an example of how valuable defensive forwards are. They executed their system to perfection. Only one breakaway for Canada, and no other odd-man rushes to speak of. That was textbook play by the Finns. Team Canada 1987 couldn't have done anything against that team.

Honestly, Ogopogo, as much as I don't want to say this, the spark this team needs is to get into the quarter-finals. I think once we reach the playoffs, once they've made the adjustments this team will show its metal.

And despite this team's troubles scoring goals, they've still scored more in the first four games than the first four games in 2002.


Last edited by God Bless Canada: 02-20-2006 at 12:04 AM.
God Bless Canada is offline  
Old
02-25-2006, 01:06 PM
  #63
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 31,644
vCash: 500
Defensive forward, Guy Carbonneau/Bob Gainey/late-era Bryan Trottier mold/early-era Mike Peca, and every player that was skilled yet played defensively for whatever reason, no.

Defensive forward, Kris Draper/Kirk Maltby mold, who are having a career a defensive forwards because they obviously do not have any other usefulness on a team, yes....

MXD is online now  
Old
02-26-2006, 06:35 PM
  #64
jiggs 10
Registered User
 
jiggs 10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hockeytown, ND
Country: United States
Posts: 3,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
There's a reason for the saying "Offence wins game, defence wins championships."
Yes, it was made up by a guy who couldn't score!

Seriously, both types are needed to be sucessful, but offense is what wins games in the long run. Otherwise, Buffalo would have won 5 or 6 Cups with Hasek. A great goalie is the best type of defense, right?

I will reverse Scotty Bowman's quote here to fit the truth nowadays: "You take 6 Bobby Clarke's and I'll take 6 Bobby Orr's and I will beat you every time." This is an extreme situation, because Orr was the best defensive defenseman of his time, as well as the greatest offensive defenseman EVER, but it is true. The Oilers didn't win their Cups because of Dave Lumley (as someone pointed out). In fact, you could argue they won IN SPITE of players like that.

Anyone can play defense. It just takes hard work and a little bit of hockey sense and grit. NOT anyone can shoot the puck through a gnat's a** and score 60 goals a year and win games. There is a BIG difference. I'm all for defensive players being honored (or more appropriately-noticed) for what they do, because if they can slow down or shut down the other team's big guns for a game, they have given their team the chance to OUT-SCORE the other team, which is how you win games. By scoring more goals than them.

jiggs 10 is offline  
Old
02-26-2006, 07:20 PM
  #65
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,398
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
I will reverse Scotty Bowman's quote here to fit the truth nowadays: "You take 6 Bobby Clarke's and I'll take 6 Bobby Orr's and I will beat you every time." This is an extreme situation, because Orr was the best defensive defenseman of his time, as well as the greatest offensive defenseman EVER, but it is true. The Oilers didn't win their Cups because of Dave Lumley (as someone pointed out). In fact, you could argue they won IN SPITE of players like that.
If that was Bowman's actual quote, he certainly could have chosen different players to make his point.

Orr is the best offensive defenseman to ever play the game, and Clarke is probably the best defensive forward among the great offensive forwards in the games history.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
02-26-2006, 07:36 PM
  #66
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
Yes, it was made up by a guy who couldn't score!

Seriously, both types are needed to be sucessful, but offense is what wins games in the long run. Otherwise, Buffalo would have won 5 or 6 Cups with Hasek. A great goalie is the best type of defense, right?

I will reverse Scotty Bowman's quote here to fit the truth nowadays: "You take 6 Bobby Clarke's and I'll take 6 Bobby Orr's and I will beat you every time." This is an extreme situation, because Orr was the best defensive defenseman of his time, as well as the greatest offensive defenseman EVER, but it is true. The Oilers didn't win their Cups because of Dave Lumley (as someone pointed out). In fact, you could argue they won IN SPITE of players like that.

Anyone can play defense. It just takes hard work and a little bit of hockey sense and grit. NOT anyone can shoot the puck through a gnat's a** and score 60 goals a year and win games. There is a BIG difference. I'm all for defensive players being honored (or more appropriately-noticed) for what they do, because if they can slow down or shut down the other team's big guns for a game, they have given their team the chance to OUT-SCORE the other team, which is how you win games. By scoring more goals than them.
Well said. I agree with you 100%. You can teach great defence and great offensive players can play defense if so inclined. Its like the old joke: "you can teach a beautiful woman to type but you can't teach an ugly typist to be beautiful" (sorry for not being politically correct)

pappyline is offline  
Old
02-26-2006, 08:28 PM
  #67
VanIslander
Don't waste my time
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 24,412
vCash: 500
Sweden had the best penalty kill in the tourney and Finland the most shutouts by far.

Defense does win championships.

It takes a Lemieux or Gretzky type to repeatedly and consistently overcome great checking in important games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD
Defensive forward, Guy Carbonneau/Bob Gainey/late-era Bryan Trottier mold/early-era Mike Peca, and every player that was skilled yet played defensively for whatever reason, no [not overrated].

Defensive forward, Kris Draper/Kirk Maltby mold, who are having a career a defensive forwards because they obviously do not have any other usefulness on a team, yes [overrated]....
I agree totally!

VanIslander is offline  
Old
02-26-2006, 09:02 PM
  #68
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
It takes a Lemieux or Gretzky type to repeatedly and consistently overcome great checking in important games.

Exactly right.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
03-03-2006, 01:34 PM
  #69
Malefic74
Registered User
 
Malefic74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halfway between Nothing and Not Much Else
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,758
vCash: 500
To really answer the original question I almost think you have to remove Gretzky and Lemieux from the equation. They are clearly freaks of nature who will obliterate ANY defense vs. offence discussion because they basically broke every rule of hockey physics.

To a certain extent Ogopogo and other proponents of offense are right. Goalscorers have value based on supply and demand. There are fewer of them so their value goes up. This same logic also applies to shutdown defensive players though. Case in point: the salaries of Bobby Holik, Mike Peca and John Madden are all over $3 million. Whether they are worth the money or not is up for debate, but those GMs clearly believe the value of those players is very high indeed. Fourth line energy players are indeed interchangeable. Elite shutdown forwards are in as short supply as elite scorers.

The Islanders allowed 210 goals against in 03-04 and scored 237. Their goaltending is the same, but they lost Peca, Aucoin and Hamrlik. Result? They have already allowed 207 goals against and have only scored 171. They were 5th in PK in 03-04. Thus far they are 27th. From playoff team to also-ran.And if you want another example of the value of defensive players look no further than the train wreck in Pittsbugh. A team full of fantastic offensive talent with "spare parts" for defense and look where they are. Dead last in their division, conference and the entire league.

Even the Oilers needed to play some defense before they won. The Oilers had scored 424 goals in 82-83 and allowed 315. +109 goals. The Islanders 302 for and 226 allowed. +76 goals. On paper the Oilers should have won. On the ice? Not so much. Isles sweep the series outscoring Edmonton 17-6. In 83-84 the Oil tightened up and win in 5 allowing only 7 goals in their 4 wins including a 1-0 shutout in Game 1. Did Lumley and Hunter win the championship for Edmonton? Of course not. But they played a much bigger role than many people realize.

Malefic74 is offline  
Old
03-03-2006, 02:40 PM
  #70
8snake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,862
vCash: 500
Forget 5 Drapers vs. 5 Spezzas.....I'll take 5 Fedorov's or Lemaire's and call it a day.

8snake is offline  
Old
03-03-2006, 02:50 PM
  #71
Habsaku
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
Sweden had the best penalty kill in the tourney and Finland the most shutouts by far.

Defense does win championships.

It takes a Lemieux or Gretzky type to repeatedly and consistently overcome great checking in important games.


I agree totally!
Defense does not win championships? Dallas and New Jersey would disagree. So would Colorado and Detroit. All those teams had a great mix of offense, defensive forwards and defense. If it took a Lemieux of Gretzky to repeatedly overcome great checking then they'd have all the cups in the last 20 years.

Habsaku is offline  
Old
03-03-2006, 03:02 PM
  #72
Riddarn
1980-2011
 
Riddarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 9,164
vCash: 500
The question shouldn't be "would you take Kris Draper over Peter Forsberg". I believe this should be about more one-dimensional players than those two.

So, would I take PJ Axelsson over Mariusz Czerkawski? You bet.

Riddarn is offline  
Old
03-03-2006, 03:24 PM
  #73
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,987
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddarn
The question shouldn't be "would you take Kris Draper over Peter Forsberg". I believe this should be about more one-dimensional players than those two.

So, would I take PJ Axelsson over Mariusz Czerkawski? You bet.
Just 'cause Czerkawski is one dimensional, it doesn't mean he's good at it

I propose Kris Draper vs. Dany Heatley

arrbez is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:26 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.