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QC Part IV: Le Boudoir

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04-09-2012, 12:27 PM
  #851
Hank Chinaski
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Originally Posted by jetsfan88 View Post
When this sale happens, we want our records and history back.
This topic was discussed extensively this past summer.

Those records can live on in the memory of Winnipeggers, just like the memories of the Nordiques can live on for QC residents, even though they're "owned" by the Avalanche.

For NHL record-keeping purposes, it would be dishonest to ignore where those franchises came from.

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04-09-2012, 12:40 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
For NHL record-keeping purposes, it would be dishonest to ignore where those franchises came from.
Cleveland Browns. That is all.

Seriously it's not about the players or team core, it's about the fans and the history of a city.

The Winnipeg Jets history was dormant from 1996-2011, not continued through the Phoenix Coyotes.

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04-09-2012, 01:10 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
Cleveland Browns. That is all.

Seriously it's not about the players or team core, it's about the fans and the history of a city.

The Winnipeg Jets history was dormant from 1996-2011, not continued through the Phoenix Coyotes.
The Browns were a special case though. Part of the agreement to move them to Baltimore was that an expansion franchise would granted to Cleveland in 1999, with all previous records kept there. Modell essentially received a new franchise in Baltimore.

There are some who are vehement that Winnipeg should get their records back from that period. There are those who are still vehement that Jets v1.0 should have had their WHA records respected. My opinion is that it's about bookkeeping, not rewriting history for the sake of sentimentality.

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04-09-2012, 01:27 PM
  #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsfan88 View Post
When this sale happens, we want our records and history back.
Hey Jetsfan88! Nice to see you hanging around here! Hopefully other positive news are on their way!

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04-09-2012, 04:10 PM
  #855
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Hey Jetsfan88! Nice to see you hanging around here! Hopefully other positive news are on their way!
When I am given the go ahead to open my mouth again i will. But for right now I will just hang out and "hang on" as it is going to be a wild ride.

I got my hand slapped again for one of my posts on the jets board

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04-09-2012, 04:17 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by jetsfan88 View Post
When I am given the go ahead to open my mouth again i will. But for right now I will just hang out and "hang on" as it is going to be a wild ride.

I got my hand slapped again for one of my posts on the jets board
nothing change with your source, he's still positive?

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04-09-2012, 04:36 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by jetsfan88 View Post
When I am given the go ahead to open my mouth again i will. But for right now I will just hang out and "hang on" as it is going to be a wild ride.

I got my hand slapped again for one of my posts on the jets board
I am sorry to hear that as I really appreciated your post.

Please do not do anything to jeapordize your situation.

I'll be patient!

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04-09-2012, 09:26 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Guardian17 View Post
I am sorry to hear that as I really appreciated your post.

Please do not do anything to jeapordize your situation.

I'll be patient!
Here's hoping for a 4 and out with the coyotes

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04-09-2012, 09:53 PM
  #859
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Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
Cleveland Browns. That is all.

Seriously it's not about the players or team core, it's about the fans and the history of a city.

The Winnipeg Jets history was dormant from 1996-2011, not continued through the Phoenix Coyotes.
Who the original Jets traded, drafted, where they finished in the standings each year etc... all directly impact the makeup of the Phoenix Coyotes roster even today. If you trace it back, it will always lead to their years in Winnipeg, and that'll of course continue if they relocate to Quebec. Similar situation with the current Jets- their team is where it is today due to the stuff that happened when they were the Thrashers. Today's Winnipeg Jets started as a franchise in Atlanta in 1999, not in Winnipeg in 1972.

The Cleveland Browns can pretend that their current team has the history of the original Browns, but that legacy will really live on in Baltimore.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
My opinion is that it's about bookkeeping, not rewriting history for the sake of sentimentality.
Well-said.

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04-10-2012, 12:32 AM
  #860
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Originally Posted by FoSotC View Post
Who the original Jets traded, drafted, where they finished in the standings each year etc... all directly impact the makeup of the Phoenix Coyotes roster even today. If you trace it back, it will always lead to their years in Winnipeg, and that'll of course continue if they relocate to Quebec. Similar situation with the current Jets- their team is where it is today due to the stuff that happened when they were the Thrashers. Today's Winnipeg Jets started as a franchise in Atlanta in 1999, not in Winnipeg in 1972.
That's one way of looking at it, not the only way.

It's like any other business, say a man and his family open up " Big Bill's Muffin Shop ". That store then is bought out and moved elsewhere. Then about a dozen years later another man moves into town and with the support of the old owner, names his store " Big Bill's Muffin Shop " and everyone in the town talks about it as they did of the old store.

Quote:
The Cleveland Browns can pretend that their current team has the history of the original Browns, but that legacy will really live on in Baltimore.
Funny enough, me paying attention to the NFL in 1996, I'm going to die looking at the Browns as the original franchise.

If you actually frequent NFL forums, rarely does anyone mention the Baltimore Ravens as the Cleveland Browns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinatsky
The Browns were a special case though. Part of the agreement to move them to Baltimore was that an expansion franchise would granted to Cleveland in 1999, with all previous records kept there. Modell essentially received a new franchise in Baltimore.
Except all the players were inherited from the Cleveland Browns. I don't see why the Cleveland Browns model can't be applied to the Winnipeg Jets. Considering that the original Jets will become the new Nordiques....and that's freaking weird to acknowledge if you ask me.

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04-10-2012, 01:06 AM
  #861
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Well.... the situation with the Browns/Ravens gets even more complex when you bring in the Colts to the equation as well. Obviously, the name, records, and history of the Colts went with the team to Indianapolis, but pretty much all the Baltimore Colts old-timers really affiliate themselves with the Ravens nowadays and have flat out refused to do anything with Indianapolis.

So really, you have to look at it in terms of spiritual successors.... the Ravens are really the new Colts, the Browns are the new Browns, and the Colts are just there as a distraction when the Hoosiers are bad, at least from fan perspectives, even if the records say otherwise.

And, truth be told, I don't know what would be stopping Winnipeg and QC from just having the best of both worlds. Be a brand new franchise and/or continuation of the history of the franchise (Jets2.0/Thrashers and Nordiques/Yotes/Jets1.0) but just make a heritage claim for past hockey success in their respective markets. So, the new Jets can honor the old Jets, the Moose, the Falcons, and the Victorias and the new Nordiques can honor the old Nordiques and the Ramparts (if they move), as well as other teams they may have been affiliated with their respective markets but whom I'm not aware of currently. Have a Winnipeg/QC Hockey Hall of Fame in the MTS Centre and Quebecor Arena with the best moments and players immortalized in their arenas and in a ring of honor of sorts, or even retiring numbers for the greatest of their past just as a way of giving thanks for the past hockey achievements not directly associated with your team. You could even just have special banners for past accomplishments of the teams in your market's history, like the new Senators having banners for the old Senators even though they're two completely different organizations with no shared history other then their names.

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04-10-2012, 02:20 AM
  #862
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Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
That's one way of looking at it, not the only way.
It's like any other business, say a man and his family open up " Big Bill's Muffin Shop ". That store then is bought out and moved elsewhere. Then about a dozen years later another man moves into town and with the support of the old owner, names his store " Big Bill's Muffin Shop " and everyone in the town talks about it as they did of the old store.
I definitely see where you're coming from when you put it this way. Still though, the history would only be on paper at best, and would have no impact on the actual history of the current incarnation. You can't connect the current Jets to the original Jets in any way other than the fact that they play in the same city and have the same name. Everything else is all Thrashers history- it's the same franchise with a different label on the tin. They're forging their own identity though, just like every other relocated franchise before them.

Out of curiosity, if the Atlanta Thrashers were relocated and called the "Manitoba Moose" instead, would you still think they should take on the history of the Winnipeg Jets? Or maybe they should take on the history of the former AHL team of the same name? There might be a stronger (albeit still tenuous) argument for that, since not only would they have the same name and play in the same city, but they'd also play in the same arena as the former Moose, too.

Quote:
If you actually frequent NFL forums, rarely does anyone mention the Baltimore Ravens as the Cleveland Browns.
Well, I wouldn't expect them to, to be honest. They're now known as the Baltimore Ravens, so referring to them by their old name would be unfitting. They got their start as the original Cleveland Browns though, and I don't think anybody would be able to technically refute that. The team would not exist as it would today if it weren't for their initial history in Cleveland.

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Old
04-10-2012, 07:42 AM
  #863
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So what are the odds that Nordiques games end up on Sportsnet East? I've noticed that TVA is recycling some of Rogers's Senators/Raptors/Blue Jays production, so could the reverse come true with the Nordiques?

I think the Nordiques games against the Canadiens, Leafs, Bruins, and Penguines would be a pretty good draw on the East Coast. TVA Sports also wouldn't have to worry about splitting the audience since its not available in most of Atlantic Canada and likewise Sportsnet East is not available in some pockets of the province of Quebec.
TVA (The main channel, not the sports one) is currently with Radio-Canada(CBC) the only other french channel offered in whole Canada.

They also have a contract with Rogers about TVA Sports (source in french)

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04-10-2012, 09:01 AM
  #864
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So what are the odds that Nordiques games end up on Sportsnet East? I've noticed that TVA is recycling some of Rogers's Senators/Raptors/Blue Jays production, so could the reverse come true with the Nordiques?
I was wondering the same thing. From what I understand, and please, correct me if I’m wrong, but there’s two kind of TV right for each language:

English national rights: CBC and TSN

English local rights: Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver are on Sportsnet, Winnipeg are on TSN Jets and Montreal are on TSN Habs

French national rights: RDS

French local rights: Montreal are on RDS and Ottawa are on TVA Sports

So if the Nordiques come back to Quebec City, we can assume that the French local rights will be sold to TVA Sports. Quebecor, if they own the team, could also choose to sell the English local right to Sportsnet. But considering that most people in Quebec City are subscribing to Sportsnet East it would be a terrible move if you are trying to get people to subscribe to TVA Sports. So personally I don’t expect Quebecor to sell English local right (for now).

But the situation wouldn’t be desperate (for analog cable subscriber like me) because I guess RDS would be more than happy to use their national rights to show games of the Nordiques, like they currently do for the Senators. You may have noticed that since TVA sports show Senators games, RDS are suddenly much more interested in showing them too.

I guess CBC and TSN wouldn’t show much interest in the Quebec Nordiques, except maybe for the first home game, rivalry games against Montreal and whenever they will play the Leafs.


Last edited by JB52: 04-10-2012 at 09:14 AM.
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Old
04-10-2012, 10:38 AM
  #865
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Except all the players were inherited from the Cleveland Browns. I don't see why the Cleveland Browns model can't be applied to the Winnipeg Jets. Considering that the original Jets will become the new Nordiques....and that's freaking weird to acknowledge if you ask me.
The issue I have is applying the model retroactively. The NFL declared that all the Browns records would be kept with the expansion Browns before the Ravens even set up shop in Baltimore.

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04-10-2012, 11:37 AM
  #866
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The issue I have is applying the model retroactively. The NFL declared that all the Browns records would be kept with the expansion Browns before the Ravens even set up shop in Baltimore.
What difference does that make?

The Browns example shows that franchise records are not automatically tied to the franchise.

There's another example to ponder - the Montreal Allouettes. The current franchise came into existence as the Baltimore Stallions, and had no tie to the previous franchise known as the Montreal Allouettes.

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04-10-2012, 12:20 PM
  #867
Hank Chinaski
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What difference does that make?

The Browns example shows that franchise records are not automatically tied to the franchise.
That's the whole point. The NFL declared the Ravens a new franchise, and effectively folded the Browns franchise for 3 seasons. Had the NFL done (IMO) what they should have done, which was a dispersal draft of the Browns and a subsequent expansion draft for the Ravens, this would never be trotted out as an example. Instead, the NFL allowed Art Modell to carry all the existing contracts he had in Cleveland over to Baltimore.

I realize it's semantics to some degree, but in the NFL's eyes they never formally "rewrote" history. That's what transferring Jets/Nords v1.0 records to Jets/Nords v2.0 would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Joe View Post
There's another example to ponder - the Montreal Allouettes. The current franchise came into existence as the Baltimore Stallions, and had no tie to the previous franchise known as the Montreal Allouettes.
Good example, never thought of that. I'm guessing the CFL was so anxious to erase any memory of that failed US expansion, they were more than happy to rewrite history. I'd be only half-surprised if the CFL removed 1993-95 from their official record book.

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04-10-2012, 12:26 PM
  #868
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They'll stick with the name and get newer logo that resembles the old one maybe bared with a fleur de lys and a darker blue look. Something new and exciting like the cool Jets uniform.
It's new but I wouldn't say exciting.

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04-10-2012, 12:56 PM
  #869
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When I am given the go ahead to open my mouth again i will. But for right now I will just hang out and "hang on" as it is going to be a wild ride.

I got my hand slapped again for one of my posts on the jets board
One of the few with the REAL insider info.

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04-10-2012, 01:33 PM
  #870
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There was a court case involved with the Browns thing and it was part of the settlement, not the NFL doing it out of the kindness of their heart.

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04-10-2012, 01:37 PM
  #871
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So when this happens, who moves over to the Western Conference? The Leafs? Please?

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04-10-2012, 01:47 PM
  #872
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So when this happens, who moves over to the Western Conference? The Leafs? Please?
I'm guessing Winnipeg unless they get the realignment done.

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04-10-2012, 02:01 PM
  #873
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I'm guessing Winnipeg unless they get the realignment done.
Oh, yea, forgot about Winnipeg.

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04-10-2012, 02:15 PM
  #874
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One of the few with the REAL insider info.
Huh?
Not out-right doubting you, but he only has 3 posts since joining 5 days ago.......

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04-10-2012, 02:18 PM
  #875
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So if the Nordiques come back to Quebec City, we can assume that the French local rights will be sold to TVA Sports. Quebecor, if they own the team, could also choose to sell the English local right to Sportsnet. But considering that most people in Quebec City are subscribing to Sportsnet East it would be a terrible move if you are trying to get people to subscribe to TVA Sports. So personally I donít expect Quebecor to sell English local right (for now).
I disagree with that part. I don't think Quebecor would lose significant revenues by selling Nordiques rights to Sportsnet East. Not enough overlap in viewership. Sportsnet East primary viewership is English speakers in Eastern Ontario, the Maritimes and Montreal (maybe 25% of the Montreal market?). If Quebecor ever intends to develop the Nordiques fanbase among those viewers, in the long run they will be much better off trying to boost ratings on Sportsnet East than trying to make them watch hockey in French on TVA Sports.

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