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And you need to understand that his production puts him as the 4th best forward on an average team.
Furthermore, Turris set the market for Gagner. He's easily the best comparable.
You need to understand Kyle Turris is a more complete, talented player with better upside. If Gagner was given 10 minutes per game on a highly competitive, defensive minded team, he would have been sent to the AHL too. This crap about him being terrible defensively is ridiculous. We should thank Mr. Tippett as he is very arguably Ottawa's best defensive center who often faces off against other teams top line. His two-way play has taken most of Ottawa by surprise.
As far as Bryan Murray setting a standard, that is bogus. Kyle Turris was a 3rd overall. The gap of talent between 3rd and 6th is generally tremendous. Gagner has done much more surely, but has been given much more opportunity with ice time and has noticable flaws in his game. I'll admit he is generally undervalued, but I wouldn't want him for the value he would command at all.
Hypothetically, if Gormley kinda stinks it up with Phoenix, then sure maybe we can start talking similiarities of the two trades. But then, Edmonton fans would be parading about how Gormley is a bust and Gagner is a future 1C and how the trade is stupid anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner
Gagner is a 2C on a team that needs a 2C.
Why would any other team want him at 2C?
Gagner is a 2C on a non competitive team. He will not be a viable 2C on a competing team unless they have an Eberle on his line.
You need to understand Kyle Turris is a more complete, talented player with better upside. If Gagner was given 10 minutes per game on a highly competitive, defensive minded team, he would have been sent to the AHL too. This crap about him being terrible defensively is ridiculous. We should thank Mr. Tippett as he is very arguably Ottawa's best defensive center who often faces off against other teams top line. His two-way play has taken most of Ottawa by surprise.
As far as Bryan Murray setting a standard, that is bogus. Kyle Turris was a 3rd overall. The gap of talent between 3rd and 6th is generally tremendous. Gagner has done much more surely, but has been given much more opportunity with ice time and has noticable flaws in his game. I'll admit he is generally undervalued, but I wouldn't want him for the value he would command at all.
Hypothetically, if Gormley kinda stinks it up with Phoenix, then sure maybe we can start talking similiarities of the two trades. But then, Edmonton fans would be parading about how Gormley is a bust and Gagner is a future 1C and how the trade is stupid anyways.
Gagner is a 2C on a non competitive team. He will not be a viable 2C on a competing team unless they have an Eberle on his line.
Who cares Cam Barker was 3rd overall means squat Gagner has produced at a 40 plus pace every year in the League and was the best plus minus on the Oilers this year and was very competent being first forward back in the zone. Turris has yet to crack 30 flipping points so in your view Boedeker commands way more trade value than Eberle he was 8th overall and held down by the same team that you say never gave Turris the right oppurtunity. Give me a break results matter when 2 players are on a even playing feild Turris playing with Alfredsson puts up 29 points . Love these strawman arguments about Turris from Sens fans
Who cares Cam Barker was 3rd overall means squat Gagner has produced at a 40 plus pace every year in the League and was the best plus minus on the Oilers this year and was very competent being first forward back in the zone. Turris has yet to crack 30 flipping points so in your view Boedeker commands way more trade value than Eberle he was 8th overall and held down by the same team that you say never gave Turris the right oppurtunity. Give me a break results matter when 2 players are on a even playing feild Turris playing with Alfredsson puts up 29 points . Love these strawman arguments about Turris from Sens fans
Strawman? Thats quite ironic since you're argument is based on the small fraction of 3rd overall picks that don't make it, while completely ignoring that well over half of them end up being high impact NHL players.
2011 Jonathan Huberdeau C/LW Saint John (QMJHL)
2010 Erik Gudbranson D Kingston (OHL) Florida Panthers
2009 Matt Duchene C Brampton (OHL) Colorado Avalanche
2008 Zach Bogosian D Peterborough (OHL) Atlanta
2007 Kyle Turris C Burnaby (BCHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2006 Jonathan Toews C North Dakota (WCHA) Chicago
2005 Jack Johnson D U.S. Junior National Team (Intl)
2004 Cam Barker D Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL) Chicago
2003 Nathan Horton C Oshawa Generals (OHL) Florida
2002 Jay Bouwmeester D Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL) Florida
2001 Alexandr Svitov C Omsk Avangard (Russia) Tampa
2000 Marian Gaborik LW Dukla Trencin (Slovak) Minnesota Wild
1999 Henrik Sedin
Apart from Barker and Svitov, that looks like a pretty damn impressive list. It shows the potential of the 3rd overall, which has a much higher likelihood than of getting an impact top player than a 6th overall pick, hence increase of value, Mr. Strawman.
For the rest of your argument its simple. Your team sucks, Gagner benefitted, Alfy and Turris didn't play together originally just later on and he missed half the season.
Strawman? Thats quite ironic since you're argument is based on the small fraction of 3rd overall picks that don't make it, while completely ignoring that well over half of them end up being high impact NHL players.
2011 Jonathan Huberdeau C/LW Saint John (QMJHL)
2010 Erik Gudbranson D Kingston (OHL) Florida Panthers
2009 Matt Duchene C Brampton (OHL) Colorado Avalanche
2008 Zach Bogosian D Peterborough (OHL) Atlanta
2007 Kyle Turris C Burnaby (BCHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2006 Jonathan Toews C North Dakota (WCHA) Chicago
2005 Jack Johnson D U.S. Junior National Team (Intl)
2004 Cam Barker D Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL) Chicago
2003 Nathan Horton C Oshawa Generals (OHL) Florida
2002 Jay Bouwmeester D Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL) Florida
2001 Alexandr Svitov C Omsk Avangard (Russia) Tampa
2000 Marian Gaborik LW Dukla Trencin (Slovak) Minnesota Wild
1999 Henrik Sedin
Apart from Barker and Svitov,And Turris that looks like a pretty damn impressive list. It shows the potential of the 3rd overall, which has a much higher likelihood than of getting an impact top player than a 6th overall pick, hence increase of value, Mr. Strawman.
For the rest of your argument its simple. Your team sucks, Gagner benefitted, Alfy and Turris didn't play together originally just later on and he missed half the season.
FTFY Yes your 29 point superstar 5 years after being drafted lmao
Gagner doesn't bring much more than his offense. He usually hustles but I don't think any team would be going anywhere with him as a second line center. Oilers fans realize this too. That is the reason he is in trade proposals all the time.
I'm not crazy about Turris and Rundblad but I am not sure using that trade as guide is fruitful. More potential and more question marks all around involved in that trade. With Gagner I think it is very much a case of what you see is what you get, even though he is just 22 years old. I don't get the feeling he is about to break out and find another plateau in his game.
He did have the best +/- on the team among forwards so if you manage his minutes carefully, he's not hurting you.
It'll be interesting to see what he will get paid next year. The market value for a 40-50 point guy should be around $3M/year.
Gagner doesn't bring much more than his offense. He usually hustles but I don't think any team would be going anywhere with him as a second line center. Oilers fans realize this too. That is the reason he is in trade proposals all the time.
I'm not crazy about Turris and Rundblad but I am not sure using that trade as guide is fruitful. More potential and more question marks all around involved in that trade. With Gagner I think it is very much a case of what you see is what you get, even though he is just 22 years old. I don't get the feeling he is about to break out and find another plateau in his game.
He did have the best +/- on the team among forwards so if you manage his minutes carefully, he's not hurting you.
It'll be interesting to see what he will get paid next year. The market value for a 40-50 point guy should be around $3M/year.
While there are some points in your post I don't agree upon, it is a fair assessment of what Sam Gagner brings to the table. His value is that of a player who brings 40 points pretty much guaranteed. I also wouldn't ignore his dedication. For a guy who's gotten his ass kicked by Beauchemin and JMFJ, that's gotta count for something.
I wouldn't call the Turris deal a guide per say, I'd call it a benchmark. The Oilers would have no reason to take less. 5 years past their draft year these two guys have similar statures, play the same position and Gagner has bashed his brains in when discussing offensive production.
And I don't follow when you state that he's not about to hit another plateau. He's 22. And the sentence after you make that claim, you bring up an instance of him improving over last year. He's been improving since he came into this league.
FTFY Yes your 29 point superstar 5 years after being drafted lmao
Kyle Turris is 22 and scores 29 points(in 49 games for Ottawa granted), Gagner is 22 and scores 47. Yet many Edmonton fans want Gagner gone, while majority of Ottawa fans think they have found their 2C of the future who is virtually untouchable. To the untrained eye, that seems sort of ridiculous. Surely there must be a reason?
If you cant find out the reason for that, then you clearly don't get the point.
Kyle Turris is 22 and scores 29 points(in 49 games for Ottawa granted), Gagner is 22 and scores 47. Yet many Edmonton fans want Gagner gone, while majority of Ottawa fans think they have found their 2C of the future who is virtually untouchable. To the untrained eye, that seems sort of ridiculous. Surely there must be a reason?
If you cant find out the reason for that, then you clearly don't get the point.
Kyle Turris is 22 and scores 29 points(in 49 games for Ottawa granted), Gagner is 22 and scores 47. Yet many Edmonton fans want Gagner gone, while majority of Ottawa fans think they have found their 2C of the future who is virtually untouchable. To the untrained eye, that seems sort of ridiculous. Surely there must be a reason?
If you cant find out the reason for that, then you clearly don't get the point.
Gagner is Oilers' heaviest top 6 forward. You can have all the skill but if there is no one over 192lbs in your top 6 you cant survive the NW. Hemsky, Nuge, Hall, Eberle and Smyth is a very 'small' group. EDM needs to add size down the middle.
Kyle Turris is 22 and scores 29 points(in 49 games for Ottawa granted), Gagner is 22 and scores 47. Yet many Edmonton fans want Gagner gone, while majority of Ottawa fans think they have found their 2C of the future who is virtually untouchable. To the untrained eye, that seems sort of ridiculous. Surely there must be a reason?
If you cant find out the reason for that, then you clearly don't get the point.
yeah, Gagner set a stupidly high bar in the eyes of some oiler fans as an 18 year old player and they expect him to be something more. Then you throw in the kinds of rookie performances Eberle and Hall and Nugent-Hopkins put up and Gagner becomes yesterdays news to a fanbase that has a tendancy to be quite insane at times.
Gagner is a good player, but he's not the guy to carry a line on his own, so when he's stuck on the 3rd line wing when he's coming back from injury early in the season or stuck with a non producing Hemsky and Smyth/Jones/whoever later in the season are we surprised when his points dry up? The oilers only had a few guys they could count on for points throughout the season and when Gagner got to play with them he fit in very well with him.
Gagner is a fantastic supporting player on a line, put him with talented players and he is in no way out of place with them.
Gagner's 8 point game is the worst thing to ever happen to the trade section.
Did you see the context the statement was in? A VAN fan said he needs 1st line talent just to produce like a 2nd line C, thus I used the numbers to argue that he put up very good numbers when he played with 1st line talent. If you don't like the 8pt game and want to remove it, then I guess he had 11pts in 9 games, which is still 1st line C type production when paired with 1st line talent. There's not really much to argue there.
Also, to those who seem to think he's garbage because he's in every trade proposal, it is more a case of too many small skill guys/skill guys that don't play physical and he being the most expendable. Gagner, Hemsky, MPS, Nuge, Ebs, and in a few months, Yakupov. Nobody seemed to want Hemsky at the deadline and MPS is still very much an unknown. Nuge, Ebs and Yakupov aren't going anywhere. That leaves Gagner, but I think a team like Nashville could use a guy like him.
Yes your 29 point superstar 5 years after being drafted lmao
