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Would you be upset if the new GM did a rebuild?

View Poll Results: Would you be upset?
Yes, I want to win now and feel this core is a contender 57 34.55%
No, I am not opposed to a philosophy change. 108 65.45%
Voters: 165. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-11-2012, 08:05 AM
  #26
Habs 4 Life
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We need changes, more then just a few so I guess it's option 2 for me

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04-11-2012, 08:14 AM
  #27
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I think the "tank" model is waayyyy over romaticized and glorified.

Just because Pittsburgh and Chicago both ran their franchises into the ground(due to poor ownership or building) and emerged 5-6 years later by winning a cup that's suddenly the winning formula.

This is not realist on many levels. 1st the average fan doesn't want to support a bottom 5 team year after year, the proof is in Columbus where the franchise started out with great support which subsequently dwindled. Owners that pay billons to own a pro sports team don't want it in the cellar for any period of time, these people are winners in business and want to win on the ice.

This team doesn't need a full rebuild, a lot of the pieces of a contender are in place, I think there are still a few big pieces missing, but before making the 1-2(Hossa/Pronger type) trades to put the team "over the top", you have to keep growing the foundation. Keep stocking the cupboards with quality young players, keep looking at the UFA and trade market as a way to improve the team by adding depth up front and on defense.


I think with a few good moves(50-60 point 2nd liner plus 20 minute stay at home d-man) a bit more luck(winning more SO and holing 1 goal leads/Gionta and Markov stay healthier) and the development of some of our young/1st year players(Subban Diaz Emelin Eller) this team can pretty easily jump back to 5th or 6th in the conference and potentially grow from there.

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04-11-2012, 08:17 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I think the "tank" model is waayyyy over romaticized and glorified.

Just because Pittsburgh and Chicago both ran their franchises into the ground(due to poor ownership or building) and emerged 5-6 years later by winning a cup that's suddenly the winning formula.

This is not realist on many levels. 1st the average fan doesn't want to support a bottom 5 team year after year, the proof is in Columbus where the franchise started out with great support which subsequently dwindled. Owners that pay billons to own a pro sports team don't want it in the cellar for any period of time, these people are winners in business and want to win on the ice.

This team doesn't need a full rebuild, a lot of the pieces of a contender are in place, I think there are still a few big pieces missing, but before making the 1-2(Hossa/Pronger type) trades to put the team "over the top", you have to keep growing the foundation. Keep stocking the cupboards with quality young players, keep looking at the UFA and trade market as a way to improve the team by adding depth up front and on defense.


I think with a few good moves(50-60 point 2nd liner plus 20 minute stay at home d-man) a bit more luck(winning more SO and holing 1 goal leads/Gionta and Markov stay healthier) and the development of some of our young/1st year players(Subban Diaz Emelin Eller) this team can pretty easily jump back to 5th or 6th in the conference and potentially grow from there.
If the Ottawa Senators can do it,. the Habs can certainly do it.

By the way, interesting interview by Ron Fournier with Larry Carrière yesterday nite. It was the very first time I was hearing Carrière in a n interview, and in french on top of that. Not bad at all. The guy deserves to keep a job as assistant-GM.

Carrière is also saying that the team is not far from being a better team and a contender. He certainly knows what's going on in the locker room, who should be kept and who is expendable.

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Old
04-11-2012, 08:28 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I would not rebuild at all. I'd look at what made the team successful against Boston last year even though they lost. They were missing Markov and Pacioretty and Gorges. With a few more tweaks it is still a good roster. But the defence needs a backup plan if it's all going to be about Markov.

I didn't like the Cammalleri trade either. I'd be in favor of unloading Kaberle to get a legitimate, two way, top 4 d-man if possible. A cheap PP specialist like MAB. Trade Bourque back to Calgary for Cammalleri + something else. LOL

I just don't think the basic roster is THAT bad. A rebuild guarantees nothing. Didn't we just learn that?
So, a team that got beat in 7 games in the first round of last year against Boston is a ''successful'' team to you?

It's not because Boston won the cup that year that It means that Montreal is near the calibre of them you know. It just happens the Canadiens were one of the few teams that played the Bruins well and caused them some pain last year. Even Tampa Bay pushed them to a 7th and final game in the eastern conference finals last year and THEY DON'T EVEN MADE THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR.

At his best, this team with it's current core is no better than a bubble playoff team or a team like say the Calgary Flames. It's better to get our face out of the water and face reality now than to naively believe that this year was just a bad year filled with injuries and that with some tweaks they are good enough to compete for the cup as early as next year.

How low have expectations gotten since 1993! Really!

Sorry but your comment illustrates more the thinking of the people who are fine with the organiszation's main goal since Roy left: To make the playoffs rather than winning the cup.

And that has to change!

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Old
04-11-2012, 08:38 AM
  #30
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We don't need a rebuild. In terms of development, there are traditionally a few stages:

1 - You rebuild through the draft. We've done this through Price, PK, Pacioretty, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Eller, Emelin and others.

2 - You sign veterans to complement young players and you wait for those young players to begin to take charge. We've seen that. Our younger players contributed more to any success we did have this year than our veterans.

3 - You take this young core and start selling off your veterans. This is the summer where we do this. We get rid of Gomez, Kaberle, etc.

4 - You get complementary players that you feel can contribute more to the current group. These players are either more youth or other players. Bourque fits into this category. You also keep a few veterans around so I keep Gionta and Moen around this year.

This summer will be stages 3 and 4. But I will support a rebuild in one way - our approach. We have to build our organizational strategy from scratch again. We need to regain our class as an organization and hire the best in the business that can take us to the next level.

This level will be us being in a position to challenge and fail.

The following stage is glory!

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Old
04-11-2012, 08:43 AM
  #31
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Had the question been asked before the Habs tanked this year, I would have said yes. But because I truly feel that injuries were a huge part of the "tanking" this year, and so did the coaching and the team's lack of direction, seeing that all of that will change, I voted no.

See, I truly feel like the team we've seen this year is far from as bad as it's shown, and that it won't take much to turn it around. A new coaching style allowing creativity offensively, playing an aggressive style both physically and on forecheck, a veteran defenseman and a Top 6 player with grit, a healthy Gionta and Markov, and you have a great mix here.

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04-11-2012, 08:44 AM
  #32
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Also, I want to snag MPS from Edmonton. Give them their defenseman. Weber or Diaz + 2nd. He's not worth a 1st.

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04-11-2012, 08:46 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strutsboa View Post
I would start off with trying to sign Parise and/or Suter. Whether or not any of them would sign, I would still start the season with the mind on winning. However, I would of course off-load Gomez and/or Kaberle if possible, but that's not "tanking" for me, that's just common sense.

I would keep all the other players in the lineup trying to reach the playoffs, but if we reach the deadline without any realistic chance of the playoffs, I would start to listen to offers on Gionta, Bourque and possibly Markov (if we get great value).

I think Cole and Plekanec should be part of our plans for the next 3-4 years unless we get tremendous offers (or Grigorenko/Galchenyuk makes Plekanec expendable at the deadline).
This.

Although Gionta, Bourque and even Markov don't have great value right now for obvious reasons.

I think they also have to look at the spare parts like Weber, Diaz, Geoffrion,... They need to bolster the bottom D pairing and the bottom two lines. Although this crop of FA is not strong, there is quantity there that should improve our depth at somewhat reasonable costs.

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04-11-2012, 08:46 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by HockeyFan87 View Post
So, a team that got beat in 7 games in the first round of last year against Boston is a ''successful'' team to you?

It's not because Boston won the cup that year that It means that Montreal is near the calibre of them you know. It just happens the Canadiens were one of the few teams that played the Bruins well and caused them some pain last year. Even Tampa Bay pushed them to a 7th and final game in the eastern conference finals last year and THEY DON'T EVEN MADE THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR.

At his best, this team with it's current core is no better than a bubble playoff team or a team like say the Calgary Flames. It's better to get our face out of the water and face reality now than to naively believe that this year was just a bad year filled with injuries and that with some tweaks they are good enough to compete for the cup as early as next year.

How low have expectations gotten since 1993! Really!

Sorry but your comment illustrates more the thinking of the people who are fine with the organiszation's main goal since Roy left: To make the playoffs rather than winning the cup.

And that has to change!
Blah, Blah, Blah

Sounds like you can guarantee the Cup with a rebuild. I'm all ears. Can't wait - yahoooo!!!!

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04-11-2012, 08:55 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Blah, Blah, Blah

Sounds like you can guarantee the Cup with a rebuild. I'm all ears. Can't wait - yahoooo!!!!
It worked for Atlanta, Florida, Columbus, and the Islanders!

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04-11-2012, 08:56 AM
  #36
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A rebuild is not needed when a team already has several important pieces in place. When you need a piece or two in the top 6, one or two in the bottom 6 and maybe a defenseman to put a team over, it is not rebuilding at all. It's simply BUILDING on what you already have.

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04-11-2012, 08:57 AM
  #37
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I never suggested a tank btw. If we look at a GM like Brian Burke(and here comes the "what has he done" comments") in Toronto, years later, he specifically says he wants to build a team both he and Carlye need for their philosophy. While Burke's time in Toronto has mixed reviews, it is because Toronto didn't already have a pacioretty, subban and price. His biggest fail was trying to get a top line forward to build around. While successful, what he lost was significant.

The habs do not have this issue. They have a little bit of everything and a 'full' rebuild is not necessary nor is the notion that 'we need to get younger'. It's nice to build a team that will be a perrenial contender rather than have mixed phases.

I personally would not be opposed if a GM said "we're shipping out some guys, and we want a different set of vets, we'll have to overpay a bit, and it will take us about 2 years to regain to depth". For instance, would you swap bourque for morrow, brown, etc? I believe while the other two may be both labeled as 'vets' and not young prospects, I think it's fair to say we'd rather have brown over bourque or Gleason over kaberle. I don't expect such trades to take place, but that's what I mean by a philosophy change. Maybe the GM will finally say "enough is enough" and make a play for Getzlaf and sacrifice some future in the process to create an elite core.

These are all possibilities, not everything has to do with trading for picks. It really depends how the GM wants to build AROUND pacioretty, subban and Price. Take a look at vancouver, traded hodgson for kassian because they needed something else.

Paul holmgren in philly didn't like the leadership so all he did was trade his young top 2 centers for simmonds, varecek, couturier, schenn...one might argue they will provide a better core in the long run while still competing in the short term. I say this and I would gladly have taken richards or carter. It ultimately depends on the needs of a team. I personally don't see the habs winning much with current core because they are getting older, more injury prone. I can live with it obviously, I just despise the notion that we'll try, be unsucessful, lose the players as UFAs and the new rebuild will be slow again and we won't be contenders with the new core.

Again, doesn't mean they should be traded for picks, but I would not object to a GM stockpiling top young talent to this team. I would not be opposed to taking chances and paying for players like Chris Stewart for example, who provides great size and physicality.

I love our vets(except the obvious) but I'd rather build a strong young core as the GM may want, from skill, speed, size, whatever. Then, we can worry about vet pieces complimenting the core. I dislike that in montreal because of mediocore draft positions we always do it the other way around.

It ultimately becomes a question like this. If you cut your losses and assess the team as non-contender now, your returns may be a Brayden Schenn, Couturier, TJ Oshie(not specifically those guys, just young players who will be added to the core), etc... type of player added to the next era in montreal. No where does it say to tank, but I don't see a good mix with this team. I'm last guy to care about toughness but we're small, injury prone, old, not talented enough, etc... We're not a bad team, we're just not a good team IMO.


Last edited by LyricalLyricist: 04-11-2012 at 09:03 AM.
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Old
04-11-2012, 08:57 AM
  #38
Kjell Dahlin
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There will be a 1-2 year(s) gap in the flow of prospects coming from the AHL but otherwise I think we are in good shape:

(1) New leadership

(2) A top3 overall pick + two second round picks (+ 4 picks in the first two rounds in 2013 – Thank you Gauthier!)

(3) Imo the two main reasons for our 2011-12 woes are a poorly built D squad (inexperienced) and a top finish (top3? I will try to find a source *1) in terms of games lost to injuries. Edit: 440 man-games lost due to injury in 2011-12.

(4) Pacioretty, Desharnais, Cole, Plekanec, Gionta, Eller, White, Subban, Gorges, Markov, Emelin, Price, Leblanc... are a solid group. Add guys like Moen (hopefully), Dumont, Diaz, Bourque, Saint-Denis, Kaberle... to the support cast and the result is a team almost ready to compete. The addition of someone like Barret Jackman would be a huge step forward.

(5) A top tier budget

(6) A soon to be power house AHL affiliate

(7) Our young NHL players made colossal stride forward in 2011-12 – It will pay dividend next season.

I really don't see the need for a rebuild.


Edit:


@ LyricalLyricist

I just read your last post and I almost agree with you completely... especially about PHI and VAN! I do however disagree with: "... I personally don't see the habs winning much with current core because they are getting older, more injury prone...". Imo if 2011-12 showed us one thing, it's that our core is getting younger.


*1 Edit2:

440 man-games lost due to injury in 2011-12 for our Habs; I am still searching for the complete 2011-12 ranking.
Ref.: http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/l_fr/news.htm?id=626795


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 04-11-2012 at 09:15 AM.
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Old
04-11-2012, 08:59 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
This.

Although Gionta, Bourque and even Markov don't have great value right now for obvious reasons.

I think they also have to look at the spare parts like Weber, Diaz, Geoffrion,... They need to bolster the bottom D pairing and the bottom two lines. Although this crop of FA is not strong, there is quantity there that should improve our depth at somewhat reasonable costs.
Geoffrion is one guy I'd be more than willing to keep on as sort of a "project". An affordable player like him who is willing to do anything in any role, particularly/especially/specifically for this team, deserves a little more developmental patience, imo. I also think one of Weber/Diaz has to go, and I've been thinking it should be Weber for a while now. Another defenseman or two with the skill and compete level/"toughness" to log 20 mins/game, 80 games/year would be really, really nice.

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04-11-2012, 09:04 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Blah, Blah, Blah

Sounds like you can guarantee the Cup with a rebuild. I'm all ears. Can't wait - yahoooo!!!!
There is obviously no guarantee but neither has the current plan of the team, and I suspect you already know it, but hey, you're not forced to agree with me. Feel free to do as you wish man.

I'm just saying that at best this team with it's current core is no better than a bubble playoff team, so I think it's possible for them to make the playoffs next year like they have been doing from 2007 to 2011. So, you can enjoy once again your probable 1st or 2d rd exit of the playoffs.

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04-11-2012, 09:11 AM
  #41
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T

@ LyricalLyricist

I just read your last post and I almost agree with you completely... especially about PHI and VAN! I do however disagree when you mentioned: "... I personally don't see the habs winning much with current core because they are getting older, more injury prone...". Imo if 2011-12 showed us one thing, it's that our core is getting younger.
I think when a team finished as bad as montreal did and we traded only Gill as a vet and swapped cammy for a bourque(who is actually a year older) and guys like spacek for kaberle then sure I guess. Leblanc and others emerged but the fact we were supposed to rid ourselves of spacek and got another 30+ vet in exchange does little to dispell my claim.

In fact, I would wager that without trades this summer, if I took a weighted average for 2011-2012 (GP*Age at beginning of 2011-2012) and compared it with 2012-2013, we'd have a very similar result, something that's mind boggling when you finish 3rd last in the league.

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04-11-2012, 09:12 AM
  #42
Born in 1909
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Its becoming time to stay away from HF until September....

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04-11-2012, 09:18 AM
  #43
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I want to make the playoffs next year, simple as that. Nothing is better than waking up in the morning and knowing the Habs have a playoff game that night. Productivity may go down, but fun times goes up

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04-11-2012, 09:19 AM
  #44
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Its becoming time to stay away from HF until September....
I think you're right.

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04-11-2012, 09:38 AM
  #45
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I think when a team finished as bad as montreal did and we traded only Gill as a vet and swapped cammy for a bourque(who is actually a year older) and guys like spacek for kaberle then sure I guess. Leblanc and others emerged but the fact we were supposed to rid ourselves of spacek and got another 30+ vet in exchange does little to dispell my claim.

In fact, I would wager that without trades this summer, if I took a weighted average for 2011-2012 (GP*Age at beginning of 2011-2012) and compared it with 2012-2013, we'd have a very similar result, something that's mind boggling when you finish 3rd last in the league.
2011-12 allowed guys like Subban, Price and Pacioretty to solidify their "core players' status". Injuries and an underperforming vet (Gomez) gave Desharnais and Eller a chance to prove their worth. Emelin and Diaz also joined the "part of the solution" group.

Our young guys received more responsibilities in 2011-12 and, overall, they did a good job: we can't blame them for the injuries and a poorly (inexperienced) built D squad.

That's what I meant when I wrote "... Imo if 2011-12 showed us one thing, it's that our core is getting younger.".


PS TOI, instead of GP, would give a better picture imo.

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04-11-2012, 09:45 AM
  #46
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Also, I want to snag MPS from Edmonton. Give them their defenseman. Weber or Diaz + 2nd. He's not worth a 1st.
Now would be a good time to try to get MPS with Yakupov further decreasing his value. Wonder if a package involving picks and Diaz could get it done, Diaz has shown potential on the defensive end of the game.

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04-11-2012, 09:48 AM
  #47
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I'm just saying that at best this team with it's current core is no better than a bubble playoff team, so I think it's possible for them to make the playoffs next year like they have been doing from 2007 to 2011. So, you can enjoy once again your probable 1st or 2d rd exit of the playoffs.
Before you can win a cup you usually have to have a few 1st or 2nd round playoff exits.

I don't know of any teams that went from non playoff team to a cup.

I don't have a problem with 2007 to 2011 but things like the Gomez trade and injuries prevented us from building on 2008 and 2010. Teams that win cups take that and take the next step up. Using the Columbus Atlanta or NYI plan you don't even get to the dance let alone get a slow one with the prom queen

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04-11-2012, 10:00 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
As the title says, if the new GM came here and sold all the vets, stocked up on picks will keeping the young players in Price, Subban, Pacioretty and likely others in Eller, Emelin, White, etc... would you be upset if it required an extra year or two of building?

Basically:

Markov
Bourque
Gionta
Gomez
Kaberle
Cole
Plekanec
etc...

Can be traded for younger pieces/picks and the GM may go for a new philosophy.

In what situation would a GM move many vets? Think of a GM coming in who prefers a bigger, stronger physical team and doesn't see gionta, kaberle, etc.. as solutions and decides to revamp the roster and acquire new players to fit his mold.

Would you be against it? Assuming he was a shrewd negotiator and got the most out of the assets?

The only ones I would keep off of your list is Cole and Markov. Cole is a great "lead by example" kind of guy and right now markov has low value. If markov plays well next year and looks strong, maybe at the trade deadline he will have much higher value.

The rest they can get rid of for picks or younger guys....

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04-11-2012, 10:10 AM
  #49
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The next GM - especially if it's someone who doesn't know much the team - will have to be careful in his evaluation.

This team needs more a fine tuning than a total re-building.

One or two good wingers for the 2nd line + a top-four d-man or a good physical d-man for the 3rd pairing, is all is needed.

Good coaching should be the #1 issue to solve.

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04-11-2012, 10:16 AM
  #50
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I am so tired fo being a bubble team year in and year out. Yes we did make it to the Conference final 2 years ago but we must admit that if it werent for Halak, we wouldnt have beaten the Caps.

I think it is time for a change, trade the deadwood and stockpile picks. We already have a really good core of young players and some others coming in that it wouldnt be a 5 year plan but most likely a 2 year plan.

If we draft a foward this year, land a top 5 pick next year and get another foward, and another first rounder via trade, we'll be good to go in 2013/14.

Lets not try to shortcut the process like Burke did with the Leafs and do this the right way.

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