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Lidstrom vs. Orr

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Old
08-19-2011, 01:10 PM
  #51
Theokritos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBoss View Post
If Colton Orr and the MVP of the 1927 playoffs were to step on the ice, Orr would be faster, stronger, a better passer, etc in comparison.
Let Colton Orr grow up in Canada circa 1900-1920 and then step on the ice to compete with the 1927 MVP. Or let the 1927 MVP grow up in Canada circa 1980-2000 and then compete with Colton Orr. You wouldn't call any random officer in today's Armed Forces a more talented commander-in-chief than Hannibal or Napoleon, even though our little officer would destroy their armies with Machine guns and Tanks.

But Semantics, of course.

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08-19-2011, 03:16 PM
  #52
LiveeviL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Let Colton Orr grow up in Canada circa 1900-1920 and then step on the ice to compete with the 1927 MVP. Or let the 1927 MVP grow up in Canada circa 1980-2000 and then compete with Colton Orr. You wouldn't call any random officer in today's Armed Forces a more talented commander-in-chief than Hannibal or Napoleon, even though our little officer would destroy their armies with Machine guns and Tanks.

But Semantics, of course.
I kind of agree. But we do not equal training with material here.
Machine guns and tanks might equal sticks and skates. But training is another thing, as talent is different from training.


With that said, talent in war-like circumstances beats training.Training in hockey is far more important than when it comes to officers and certainly CiC.

What do we discuss here? Orr might have been more talented than Lidström; Orr did dominate more in his era than Lidström has done; Lidström is a better player than Orr was. I think all of this is true.

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09-03-2011, 04:02 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by TANK200 View Post
Orr was the second best player of all-time behind only Wayne Gretzky (though some would even call him the best). There is really no comparison between Orr and Lidstrom. Bobby Orr played nine full seasons before having his career ended by injury. In those 9 years, he won the Norris trophy as best defenseman 8 consecutive times, the Hart trophy for most valuable player 3 times, and led the league in scoring twice (something no other defenseman has even done even once). What made these accomplishments even greater is that he did not sacrifice defensive play. Any time he led a rush into the offensive zone, he was the first man back on defense, and was always willing to put his body on the line to block shots in an era where equipment in not even close to that worn today. Orr was in a class of his own when he played.

On that note, I also believe that calling Lidstrom the 2nd best defenseman ever is highly overrating him. Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey and Ray Bourque all accomplished significantly more than Lidstrom has, and did so against better competition. I rank Lidstrom as the 5th best defenseman ever behind only these four mentioned. He is, however, still playing and I believe that another 2 or 3 Norris trophies (if he can manage this) would likely cause me to change my mind.

As for being the best European player, that is also debatable. He is certainly one of the top three that has played in the NHL along with Jaromir Jagr and Domanik Hasek. I personally rank him as a close second to Jagr, though I recognize that the title of best European player ever could easily be given to any of the three players that I mentioned.
Its a different nhl now. everybody has to learn that, u cant compare orr to lidström. u cant compare gretzky to crosby. its not the same as it was 16years ago and definetly not the same as 50 years ago.

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02-08-2012, 05:35 PM
  #54
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Orr v Lidas

Lidstrom's on-ice intelligence, leadership, craftsmanship and durability is/was brilliant: Lidstrom refined the postion.

Orr's puck handling, speed, instincts, physical presence and agility was electrifying: Orr REdefined the position.

Career points scored (to date):

Regular season Points Per Game: Lidstrom- 0.7, Orr- 1.4

Playoff PPG: Lidstrom- 0.7, Orr- 1.2

The reason I throw these stats out is Orr played half as long as Lidas. If Orr played the same number of years/games as Lidas his point production would have doubled Lidas'.

So if I were to make the argument for Lidas, it would be based upon his greatest asset (Orr's drawback): durability.

If you make the argument based on NHL hardware earned, then Orr's 20 trophies betters Lidas' 12 trophies- and Orr accomplished this in 1/2 the time Lidas did.

If you were to base your argument for Lidas on "that was then-this is now", I say to you that it is about one's impact in their time.

Issac Newton discovered the Laws of Motion and calculus. He knew not of Relativity (it did not exist then). Does that make him less relevant or brilliant than Einstein?

The "memory lane" rebuttle is lame.

Both great rocks: one a steady constant object, the other a shooting star.

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Old
02-08-2012, 07:51 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
No disrespect to the great Nicklas Lidstrom but this it not a competition. In fact it's not even fair to Lidstrom. A better comparison for Lidstrom would be Ray Bourque - and I prefer Bourque by a thin hair. IMO Nick Lidstrom is the 5th best all-around defenseman to ever play the game. Some will disagree with my listings because of Denis Potvin but I think Potvin was the 3rd best total package defenseman to ever lace up skates. I would go:

1. Orr
2. Harvey
3. Potvin
4. Bourque
5. Lidstrom
6. Shore
Gustafsson is spot on: Lidas reminds me of Bourque- intelligence, consistency, durability, leadership, class and craftsmanship. Bourque was more physical; he also never got to skate on the great teams Lidas did (until his final year- and look at what he did). Any Bruins fan will tell you of Harry Sinden's poor managerial decisions.

You uber Lidas guys need to stop perceiving it as a slight on Lidas not being held above Orr. It doesn't detract his greatness: some greats are just greater than others. And you uber Amercian-Canadian guys need to drop the Euro preface: a great skater is a great skater- where he comes from is trivial.

No one targeted Lidas like they did Orr. There's a reason for that: if a player keeps making you look silly and you can't stop him- you're gonna get frustrated and stop him by whatever means necessary: knee checks and what not. No player had the ability to single handedly kill a penalty by holding the puck for nearly an entire power play- except Bobby Orr.

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Old
04-01-2012, 03:00 PM
  #56
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Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribban View Post
LOL!

Along with the recent ranking of Lidstrom as the best Euro player of all times in the NHL, someone had to make sure it was pointed out that he maybe great, but only second best in the league... Right behind Bobby Orr.

Considering our own thread about best Swede ever, I found it funny that the comparison was made, or even brought up. Obviously Bobby Orr wouldn't stand a chance against Lidas, even if Nicklas played on one skate, but for their time, Bobby Orr may have dominated more than Lidstrom, although Orr benefits from the "memory lane" factor that tends to bring people up a few notches.

OK.. let it rip.. any thoughts?
How selfish of Orr to excel in an expansion era lol. How noble it was for the other Super Stars of that day to hold their dominance in check. Are we really to believe on a Planet of billions that the NHL could not field 12 Teams of 18 players at any time in that Century ? The real question is- why were there only 6 Teams ? Cost of travel dictated expansion. Teams had to play each other in local Leagues. That's why there were so many 'Minor League Teams' from 1920-1950. Only with Airline / Airplane travel could the NHL expand. You cant ride on a train for 4 days to play an NHL Game. Diminishing Orr's achievements is lame. Lame as hell. His plus/minus of +1 per game over his entire career is a mind boggling Stat that will stand the test of time. He won all 4 Major awards in 1970. A single season, no other player has recorded that feat over an entire career. On top of those (4) Awards- he also won the plus/minus, the Stanley Cup, 1st Team All Star, and Athlete of the Year, Sports Illustrated, Sport Mag. Incredible.

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Old
04-01-2012, 06:55 PM
  #57
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I don't wanna be like that but comparing this suks since it's two different time eras.

Lidström got drafted by Detroit 10 years after Orr retired. The game has changed too damn much when Lidström is in his prime time.

Records are meant to be broken, but damn...i don't think anyone will beat the good ol' days records

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Old
04-07-2012, 10:12 PM
  #58
Landeskog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBoss View Post
Absolutely. Heck, Colton Orr is more talented than the MVP of the 1927 season.
Colten Orr vs HOWIE MORENZ is what your saying.. I think I'd still take HOWIE MORENZ over Colten Orr

And did I see that top 6 defenceman list right? Shore 6th are you nuts.

my list would be

Orr
Harvey
Shore
Bourque
Lidstrom
Potvin
Kelly
Robinson
Coffey
Clapper
Horton
Chelios
Park
and if you take Fetisov whole career he'd somewhere in there also.

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Old
04-11-2012, 05:40 PM
  #59
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Career: Orr +597 in 657 games; Lidstrom +450 in 1564 games

/end debate

fwiw I think Lidstrom is the 2nd best Dman of all time.

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