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(3) Phoenix Coyotes vs. (6) Chicago Blackhawks

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Old
04-11-2012, 04:21 PM
  #151
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Luckily the games aren't played on paper. That said, the Hawks have won a Cup recently and have a core group of guys who bring it when the games matter. The Coyotes will need EVERYONE to buy in to pull this one out.

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04-11-2012, 04:21 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
Eh, I don't think he's off base. Based purely on talent (i.e. not future potential, leadership skills, etc.), would you really prefer Vrbata or Whitney to Kane or Toews?
Talent doesn't win games. Execution does. This is a good example of the attitude that has earned the Coyotes opponents so many losses. "Wow their top goal guy is Vrbata? this will be cake walk" 60 minutes later they are icing down their wounds, wondering what went wrong and "Who the **** is Mike Smith?" No one is claiming the Coyotes have the better forward corps. But to suggest that this series will be oh-so-easy for the Hawks based off talent alone is laughable.

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04-11-2012, 04:48 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Talent doesn't win games. Execution does. This is a good example of the attitude that has earned the Coyotes opponents so many losses. "Wow their top goal guy is Vrbata? this will be cake walk" 60 minutes later they are icing down their wounds, wondering what went wrong and "Who the **** is Mike Smith?" No one is claiming the Coyotes have the better forward corps. But to suggest that this series will be oh-so-easy for the Hawks based off talent alone is laughable.
Agreed on all counts, but that's not what he said. You seemed to take umbrage with his claim that the three most talented players in this series were Blackhawks, which I don't think is a laughable claim. At no point did he ever say he thought it would be "oh-so-easy" for the Blackhawks, and he made a few comments that suggested the opposite of that.

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04-11-2012, 05:10 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
You seemed to take umbrage with his claim that the three most talented players in this series were Blackhawks, which I don't think is a laughable claim.
I take umbrage with using 'talent' as a justification for damn near anything. What is talent? As a writer, you understand how totally subjective this term can be. I think Ray Whitney is the most talented player in this series. He has the points to prove it. He's 39 years old and put up as many points as Hossa, on a far more defensive team. That's "talent" to me. If we're arguing based off of logic, I win. Ray Whitney has the most NHL points of anyone in this series. If we aren't using logic, and are instead using some other subjective, fan-derived definition then this just becomes masturbation for the sake of feeling good about your team.

I've seen the team numbers, and the Hawks have a lot to feel bad about.

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04-11-2012, 05:20 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
I take umbrage with using 'talent' as a justification for damn near anything. What is talent? As a writer, you understand how totally subjective this term can be. I think Ray Whitney is the most talented player in this series. He has the points to prove it. He's 39 years old and put up as many points as Hossa, on a far more defensive team. That's "talent" to me. If we're arguing based off of logic, I win. Ray Whitney has the most NHL points of anyone in this series. If we aren't using logic, and are instead using some other subjective, fan-derived definition then this just becomes masturbation for the sake of feeling good about your team.

I've seen the team numbers, and the Hawks have a lot to feel bad about.
Of course "talent" is subjective. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that there can't be any agreement. I'll ask you again: do you actually think Ray Whitney or Radim Vrbata is more talented than Jonathan Toews, as you suggested a few posts ago?

Instead of backpedaling, can you just admit you had a kneejerk reaction to someone criticizing your team?

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04-11-2012, 05:22 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by 99 steps View Post
What Coyote player would you argue is more talented than Toews, Kane or Hossa? Or Keith?

Nothing against Whitney, Vrbata, OEL or Yandle, but I don't think you can say any of them have more talent than the above. (Seriously, can you?)

And again, I'm not saying it necessarily matters. If the Coyotes play a team game, you may very well win this.
On paper the Hawks are definitely a better team. However as you have said this doesn't necessarily matter. It should be a good series.

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04-11-2012, 05:30 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
Instead of backpedaling, can you just admit you had a kneejerk reaction to someone criticizing your team?
Well, it would seem that you are the one backpedaling. After agreeing with me that his assessment of talent is rather meaningless in this sort of situation, why continue to hound me or my position? After all, you have nothing to support your claim that I think the Coyotes are more talented. Actually, I said exactly the opposite of that. My original post was a challenge to define what constitutes talent and what meaning it has in a playoff series. On this, we agreed that it doesn't mean much, if anything.

Instead of backpedaling, can you just admit you went with a popular yet ultimately self-admitted meaningless opinion? Isn't this annoying?

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04-11-2012, 05:39 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
Of course "talent" is subjective.
So we agree on this, at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that there can't be any agreement.
Which makes this curious. Agreement would depend upon us having identical views of what exactly constitutes talent. I showed just how much that can vary and how utterly subjective it truly is with the Whitney example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
I'll ask you again: do you actually think Ray Whitney or Radim Vrbata is more talented than Jonathan Toews, as you suggested a few posts ago?
So why would you ask this, which is clearly a loaded question? If the question is "Is Radim Vrbata more talented at scoring goals than any given Hawk player this regular season?" then the answer is yes. If we're talking about the series, I contend that Whitney, OEL, Vrbata and Yandle should be in that conversation. You agreeing with the notion would depend upon how you see talent. We agreed the execution plays a large role, so why not suppose or argue that the ability to consistently execute is a talent in and of itself? On that point, the Coyotes are clearly the more talented team. 99 steps even admitted as such.

We can keep going with this or just have some beers and have fun with hockey.

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04-11-2012, 07:17 PM
  #159
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Ha, good ole, X, and Pho.

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Old
04-11-2012, 07:38 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by XX View Post

We can keep going with this or just have some beers and have fun with hockey.
I choose the latter.

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Old
04-11-2012, 08:12 PM
  #161
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I'm not smart enough for any of the language you both just used. I'm going to carry on with my 5th grade reading level.

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Old
04-11-2012, 08:16 PM
  #162
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Looks like "talent" only gets you 2 more wins. If we had 2 more wins we'd still be division champs. Can't wait for tomorrow.

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