Hey all - just stumbled upon this thread by accident and am thrilled to find some intelligent discussion about officiating matters in the NHL. I've been a ref for 15 years and have worked in the OHL, OHA, AJHL and OUA in Canada, so it's very refreshing to find a group of folks with more to say than 'refs suck'! Looking forward to some good discussion as we get into playoff time.
Quick question just to warm up.. I've noticed since about December that refs in the NHL almost universally now are much slower on the whistle on routine puck freezes by the goaltender (much slower than I've ever seen, almost irritatingly so). Has anyone else picked this up? Any idea why this is? In my experience being too slow on a whistle can lead to trouble.. Although admittedly they seem to be doing it only when there is no attacking player within a stickslength of the net. Thanks
I have actually been noting that they are a little quicker when they are wrongsided. However, they are overall moving play along like 210 said.
I thought the refs in the SJ/Dal game did a good job of calling what was there. Most of the calls last night would have been let go by crews who have decided to throw away their rulebooks.
I thought the refs in the SJ/Dal game did a good job of calling what was there. Most of the calls last night would have been let go by crews who have decided to throw away their rulebooks.
+1
They had a few blatant misses (the Benn elbow and the earlier high stick), but thought they got most calls right.
I honestly couldn't even remember the last time I'd seen an interference penalty called on a defender for body checking an attacking forward who didn't have the puck on a dump and chase. I had been meaning to ask Easy if the league had instructed it's officials to changed the standard during the season, because I hadn't seen that penalty called in any game (Sharks or other teams) in at least 2-3 months.
3 of the previous 5 games have had 2 minor penalties or less called in total. That's insane! Of course not to say that there should be a minimum number of minors called each night, but I counted more separate instances of direct punches to the head than that.
They had a few blatant misses (the Benn elbow and the earlier high stick), but thought they got most calls right.
I honestly couldn't even remember the last time I'd seen an interference penalty called on a defender for body checking an attacking forward who didn't have the puck on a dump and chase. I had been meaning to ask Easy if the league had instructed it's officials to changed the standard during the season, because I hadn't seen that penalty called in any game (Sharks or other teams) in at least 2-3 months.
3 of the previous 5 games have had 2 minor penalties or less called in total. That's insane! Of course not to say that there should be a minimum number of minors called each night, but I counted more separate instances of direct punches to the head than that.
I have seen entry interference called, but the circumstances are very exact. The refs have been pretty consistent on it if the criteria are met.
I was shocked by the holding of standards in the Dallas game. The league may be indicating that they will tell the refs to clean it up for the playoffs.
Interesting comment on HNIC tonight during intermission re upcoming PIT/PHL playoff series. They noted we should pay close attention to which refs are assigned to that series, especially they said Games 1 and 3. They said expect top referees to get those assignments.
The list of officials selected for the playoffs is on the NHLOA site:
STANLEY CUP PLAYOFFS OFFICIALS
The NHL has announced the Officials selected for the Stanley Cup Playoffs 2011-12:
REFEREES
Paul Devorski, Eric Furlatt, Marc Joannette, Tom Kowal, Steve Kozari, Mike Leggo, Chris Lee, Wes McCauley, Brad Meier, Dan O'Halloran, Dan O'Rourke, Tim Peel, Brian Pochmara, Kevin Pollock, Chris Rooney, Kelly Sutherland, Francois St-Laurent, Stephen Walkom, Ian Walsh and Brad Watson.
LINESMEN
Derek Amell, Steve Barton, Dave Brisebois, Lonnie Cameron, Scott Cherrey, Greg Devorski, Scott Driscoll, Shane Heyer, Brad Kovachik, Brad Lazarowich, Steve Miller, Jean Morin, Brian Murphy, Jonny Murray, Derek Nansen, Tim Nowak, Pierre Racicot, Tony Sericolo, Jay Sharrers and Mark Wheler.
Very little change from last year. In place of Larue & Kimmerly they've added Leggo and Kowal. I think this is the 1st time Kowal's made the cut.
During the playoffs do refs tend to stay in their regions, as you've noticed during the regular season, or do they tend to get moved around more due to the reduced number of refs and to have different refs for different games in a series?
During the playoffs do refs tend to stay in their regions, as you've noticed during the regular season, or do they tend to get moved around more due to the reduced number of refs and to have different refs for different games in a series?
They get moved. The guys who start in the west get moved two the east after a couple of games and vice versa.
I am shocked by Kowal and Leggo and yes this is Kowal's first playoffs. I am 99% sure that Kowal will be one and done. I am 99% sure that Leggo will be one and done as well. Meier is another that I don't expect to go far. The one I would pick for best chance of making an extra round this year is St. Laurent. Best guess for who will end up finals are Walkom, O'Halloran, Sutherland, and Devo. O'Rourke and Watson with a shot at replacing once of those 4.
Devo, Leggo, LaRue and Walkom tend to be very limited in making calls. I noticed a slight uptick in calls in the last week of the season. I wonder if the powers that be might be pushing it for the outset of the playoffs. If they are pushing it the whole way through, Watson and O'Rourke have a better shot at making the final 4.
second, what are the criteria for interference when entering the zone? ive seen sometimes where the defender hits us once on the dump and then backs off and ive seen other times where we get pinned for more than 3 seconds not get called.
second, what are the criteria for interference when entering the zone? ive seen sometimes where the defender hits us once on the dump and then backs off and ive seen other times where we get pinned for more than 3 seconds not get called.
have they been pretty consistent regarding this?
Not consistent on interference as some won't call it. The ones that do are consistent within certain parameters. They almost always have to be leading into the zone and be on the same side as the entry. If the defender bumps while turning to follow the puck, no call. If the defender takes a full side stride while backskating to bump the forechecker, it's called. Just being on the same side as the entry is a 50/50 proposition, even for the guys who will call. It has to do with staying in lanes. They have refined this down a lot since the lockout but have stayed fairly consistent for about the last 3 years.
There is also a timing issue for a board pin. If the puck left the offensive player's stick milliseconds before first contact, the 3 sec pin is usually left alone. If it was chipped and almost at the 1.5 sec limit for leaving stick for timing count, the pin is more likely to be called.
Not consistent on interference as some won't call it. The ones that do are consistent within certain parameters. They almost always have to be leading into the zone and be on the same side as the entry. If the defender bumps while turning to follow the puck, no call. If the defender takes a full side stride while backskating to bump the forechecker, it's called. Just being on the same side as the entry is a 50/50 proposition, even for the guys who will call. It has to do with staying in lanes. They have refined this down a lot since the lockout but have stayed fairly consistent for about the last 3 years.
There is also a timing issue for a board pin. If the puck left the offensive player's stick milliseconds before first contact, the 3 sec pin is usually left alone. If it was chipped and almost at the 1.5 sec limit for leaving stick for timing count, the pin is more likely to be called.
One other thing I've noticed is interference is hardly ever called if the player being pinned makes no effort to get away. Referees seem to recognize the tactic of tying up a defenseman by "pretending" to be pinned while actually not trying to get away so other forwards have a clear path into the zone...
St. Laurent had a very bad day in the Pitt-Philly Game 3. Furlatt didn't fare much better. I can't say I understand that pairing much.
Something is going on. By far the most calls of all pairs. I wasn't fond of their first game, but didn't see all of it.
They missed out on game control in ref selection. LaRue and VanM not selected. Pollock has a rep but really isn't good at control. The other controllers in (and they aren't high end controllers like the aforementioned) are Devo and O'Rourke who are on one pair, Sutherland (with Pollock) and Peel. The need for control tends to go away in the later rounds.
I just don't understand how that pairing was created. It seems set up for failure to me - a guy I consider more of a middle-of-the-road ref (at least of the playoff guys) along with a relative playoff newcomer. Plus one's generally tight (Furlatt, who seemed to at least be trying) with another who will let go things that happen right in front of his face. You could see some of that inconsistency in the non-calls that happened in St. Laurent's end. They were big parts of the problems boiling over late.
And with Dow's tip from HNIC, this is clearly not one of the top pairings in the playoffs.
Because of that, I almost wonder if Sutherland/Pollock got pulled off the Flyers game and sent to the Nucks/Kings game after some of the issues in the first games of that one. They missed some stuff but were generally pretty acceptable. Sutherland in particular had some nice catches and passes.
I just don't understand how that pairing was created. It seems set up for failure to me - a guy I consider more of a middle-of-the-road ref (at least of the playoff guys) along with a relative playoff newcomer. Plus one's generally tight (Furlatt, who seemed to at least be trying) with another who will let go things that happen right in front of his face. You could see some of that inconsistency in the non-calls that happened in St. Laurent's end. They were big parts of the problems boiling over late.
And with Dow's tip from HNIC, this is clearly not one of the top pairings in the playoffs.
Because of that, I almost wonder if Sutherland/Pollock got pulled off the Flyers game and sent to the Nucks/Kings game after some of the issues in the first games of that one. They missed some stuff but were generally pretty acceptable. Sutherland in particular had some nice catches and passes.
I was surprised by the pairings. They needed to get the high playoff experienced refs spread a little more. Sutherland, Devo, O'Rourke and even Pollock should have taken on less experienced guys. The first 3 guys have all reffed in the SCF. I did note that they did tend to spread the skaters, trying to get one on each pair. Some of veteran refs with limited playoff experience are just the opposite of game control refs (Meier, Leggo). Joannette and Pochmara lost control on Blues/Sharks #2. Sutherland/Pollock had Blues/Sharks #1 well under control.
Well, yes, the playoffs are always intense and emotional. But it just seems like this year a line has been crossed in some cases. Or are we just getting more soft as a society that we don't stomach the same things that have always been part of the game?
Sunday afternoon's fight-filled circus in Philadelphia just added to a weekend full of chaos, which included suspendable acts in New York on Saturday as well a little craziness in St. Louis on the name night.
What gives?
Through conversations we had with several team executives and coaches around the league Sunday, we came up with a list of possible factors:
• The league's decision not to suspend Shea Weber for his transgressions on Henrik Zetterberg on the first night of the playoffs "allowed it to be open season" as one team executive said. "It started there."
• One by one, veteran NHL refs have retired from the league over the past few years, leaving many inexperienced on-ice officials in charge of playoff games, depending on the night. "Some of them don't know how to control a game," said one Eastern Conference coach.
• The players more than ever have very little respect for each other.
• One veteran player told ESPN.com on Sunday that he believes the weeding out of traditional tough guys has also open the door for "rats" to roam free on the ice and wreak havoc without any fear. He pointed, as an example, at Blues winger Vladimir Sobotka's punch that broke Dominic Moore's nose Saturday night. He said Sobotka would never have had the guts to do that "10 years ago," when NHL rinks were better patrolled.
• The incredible parity in the league has created a frenetic atmosphere in which teams are trying for any possible edge they can find in such closely contested series, and that includes trying to intimidate the other team.
All of the above? Hard to say for sure, but so far the first round has been unreal for its intensity and in some cases, pure dirtiness.
.......
Saw this article on ESPN.......thought the bolded comment really hit the nail on the head for what we've been seeing and really ties in with what you've been saying here.......refs losing control of games.
What that coach says partially leads me to conclude that there is even more (or less, I suppose would be the more accurate term) going on with the officials going on at ice level and that this seems to be going far beyond all the typical missed/ignored calls (although that's probably contributing a lot, too).
Obviously the cameras only show so much, but that coach's comment makes me wonder if a lot of the refs in these series aren't communicating that well with players and coaches and are falling down on doing the unheard behind-the-scenes peacekeeping stuff.
I put part of the blame for the Flyers-Pens slugfest on the NHL management. After the first two games the league had to know game 3 would be contentious. Could they have picked a worse pair for this game? Furlatt who calls nothing (I know some feel he calls tight-sure not my experience in the games I have seen.) and St Laurent, a playoff inexperienced ref. No way these two should have ever been chosen for a Flyers-Penguins game. This one was destined to be a bloodbath. It will be interesting to see who does game 4.
Not shocked to hear Joanette/Pochmara lost control. Joanette, at least to me, is very erratic from game to game, though at least he's a veteran guy with playoff experience.
Lunar - Furlatt, to me, calls the stuff that's right in front of him but won't reach across the rink to call something he thinks his partner should get. This leads to him being tight in some areas but very loose in others where you'd hope he'd pick it up as the trail guy. I can see how that'd leave an impression that he doesn't call anything over all. And like I said, to me, he's a middle-of-the-road guy.
Saw this article on ESPN.......thought the bolded comment really hit the nail on the head for what we've been seeing and really ties in with what you've been saying here.......refs losing control of games.
What that coach says partially leads me to conclude that there is even more (or less, I suppose would be the more accurate term) going on with the officials going on at ice level and that this seems to be going far beyond all the typical missed/ignored calls (although that's probably contributing a lot, too).
Obviously the cameras only show so much, but that coach's comment makes me wonder if a lot of the refs in these series aren't communicating that well with players and coaches and are falling down on doing the unheard behind-the-scenes peacekeeping stuff.
My take is that there is a narrow personal style that is good for peacekeeping. Some have the knack. It doesn't really correspond to call style. IMO, the league itself doesn't really know who the controllers are as demonstrated by their use of Pollock. Almost all controllers are vets but they aren't always the "stars" of the stripes, guys like LaRue and VanM. I have noticed that of the new guys, Sutherland, O'Rourke and Morton (Morton is a former ECHL enforcer, O'Rourke a former player) seem to do OK for control.
LB,
Furlatt is consistently one of the two refs with the most calls each year. He does call trail, specializing in pick plays. He is also heavy on GI. He is inconsistent and I have seen him call plays where he didn't have a clear sightline, both correctly and incorrectly. He does get a lot of flak. I agree that Furlatt/St. Laurent was the wrong pair for the Philly/Pitt game.
Kritter,
I agree about Furlatt being middle of the road but you can see the points where we disagree on his style. I really agree on Joannette being up and down. He tends to up the calls with anti-ref coaches (eg B. Sutter, I'd like to see him get AV).
Leggo, Meier, Walsh, Walkom and McCauley are NOT control refs.
Yeah, the HNIC hot tip didn't really pan out re the Flyers/Pens, Furlatt/St Laurent can't really be considered "two top, veteran refs."
They really did kind of mess things up in the last part of that game. They totally missed Neal's charge on Coutourier (?), and then after his 2nd infraction on Giroux only gave him a 2 min penalty initially, instead of a misconduct, which lead to more mayhem as the Flyers tried to go after him on his way to the box.
Add: I think Kritter may be right, maybe given the issues in some other series, and the relative calmness in the beginning of the PIT/PHL series, the league may have done some reassignments. If so, a clear mistake.
Last edited by Dowisetrepla: 04-16-2012 at 02:59 PM.
Saw this article on ESPN.......thought the bolded comment really hit the nail on the head for what we've been seeing and really ties in with what you've been saying here.......refs losing control of games.
What that coach says partially leads me to conclude that there is even more (or less, I suppose would be the more accurate term) going on with the officials going on at ice level and that this seems to be going far beyond all the typical missed/ignored calls (although that's probably contributing a lot, too).
Obviously the cameras only show so much, but that coach's comment makes me wonder if a lot of the refs in these series aren't communicating that well with players and coaches and are falling down on doing the unheard behind-the-scenes peacekeeping stuff.
I think the inconsistent calls and weeding out of tough guys is the biggest issue. They keep changing the way the enforce the so called rules when they should just let the players enforce themselves. It seemed to actually work better that way in the past.
If they don't wanna leave it up to the players then I don't understand why they can't just get it right and remove the Matt Cooke's of the league when they do obvious stupid ****. Just suspend them for an entire season next time and players will shape up real fast. Real simple... has a history, obvious intent = ban.
I think the inconsistent calls and weeding out of tough guys is the biggest issue. They keep changing the way the enforce the so called rules when they should just let the players enforce themselves. It seemed to actually work better that way in the past.
If they don't wanna leave it up to the players then I don't understand why they can't just get it right and remove the Matt Cooke's of the league when they do obvious stupid ****. Just suspend them for an entire season next time and players will shape up real fast. Real simple... has a history, obvious intent = ban.
It doesn't work when they enforce themselves. That's a recipe for biggest team wins.
The players get most incensed about safety and of the 3 younger ones I named, O'Rourke and Sutherland are attentive to safety. Part of the personality thing which is pure observation goes back to Fraser. They have to be secure in themselves. When they make a call be certain and don't take a lot from the players. If they warn a player against a behavior (no-call) and don't follow through when the behavior is repeated, they get into trouble. I have noted Sutherland and O'Rourke with warnings and follow throughs. Fraser was noted in his memoirs that being straightforward was the best path. Blow a call and admit it. If you make a call, explain it. I have noted refs who do and the ones who are straightforward about it. They explain and allow a response or clarification but cut off the conversation quickly when it is going nowhere.
