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Would you be upset if the new GM did a rebuild?

View Poll Results: Would you be upset?
Yes, I want to win now and feel this core is a contender 57 34.55%
No, I am not opposed to a philosophy change. 108 65.45%
Voters: 165. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-11-2012, 09:10 PM
  #76
Et le But
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Never said to tank, but you're referring to pitts and philly. For arguments sake, which has a cup in last 5 years? 2 final appearance vs 1?
I'm joking beyond the fact that stockpiling up draft picks doesn't hand you anything.

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04-11-2012, 09:12 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'm curious to know an example of a blue-chip prospect you'd deal Plek for, because I hear you say that a lot. The problem with someone like Pleks is he's not going to get you say, Schenn. He's regarded as slightly under a Richards type player in this league, and the problem with that is Plek alone isn't worth a must have prospect. That and Desharnais-Eller as your top 2 Cs, especially when you only have 3 decent wingers, is horrible. Expect another 2 years in the lotto with that unless we seriously overhaul the defense.
I'd deal Plekanec for something like Zack Phillips and Minny's 2nd, or Chicago's 1st + Beach/MacNeil. Something along those lines.

I don't see the point of holding on to Plekanec since by the time we're making a serious run, he'll be on the tail end of his contract and possibly losing effectiveness. Get a potential core piece out of him and go forward. Our center position might be worst off next year, but the tradeoff will likely be totally worth the long-term gain.

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04-11-2012, 09:19 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Let's suck for 5 years so we can choke away 3 goal leads against a team that never tanks in the playoffs.

Well the players you listed are the "vet group" most of us talk about. Nobody is saying Darche and Bourque are our future, those are the kind of vets that are nice additions but are replaceable.

I'm curious to know an example of a blue-chip prospect you'd deal Plek for, because I hear you say that a lot. The problem with someone like Pleks is he's not going to get you say, Schenn. He's regarded as slightly under a Richards type player in this league, and the problem with that is Plek alone isn't worth a must have prospect. That and Desharnais-Eller as your top 2 Cs, especially when you only have 3 decent wingers, is horrible. Expect another 2 years in the lotto with that unless we seriously overhaul the defense.
You know... Pleks might get you Luke Schenn. The Leafs are not happy with him, his name has been bandied about and they now have Gardiner as their rising star. They desperately need a center and Pleks would fit the bill esp since he can play a two way game. They have to make the playoffs this year and I'm not sure where else they're going to find a good center out there. They have cap problems and Pleks isn't that expensive. Burke also wants big 'truculent players' too so maybe we throw in Bourque if he's wanted there.

Schenn wouldn't be a bad guy to go after. He's had a rough go in TO but he's obviously got some skill. He's a young guy and if we could get him to turn it around he could be great for us for years.

Giving him up though, you now have DD and Eller as your one two with LL probably filling in on line 3. You'll sink in the short term at least until this years pick (probably a center) can develop in the next year or two. Adding Schenn, this year and next years' pick isn't bad if we get a high one again. We could be a stacked team in short order by doing this and we'd be stacked for a while with what we already have. Plus we can augment it after next years' draft with UFAs.

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Old
04-11-2012, 09:21 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
I'd deal Plekanec for something like Zack Phillips and Minny's 2nd, or Chicago's 1st + Beach/MacNeil. Something along those lines.

I don't see the point of holding on to Plekanec since by the time we're making a serious run, he'll be on the tail end of his contract and possibly losing effectiveness. Get a potential core piece out of him and go forward. Our center position might be worst off next year, but the tradeoff will likely be totally worth the long-term gain.
I happen to like Philips, but I still don't see the upside that benefits us. Plekanec is on a reasonable contract and if he avoid injury shouldn't drop off until near the end of it. I just can't stand the idea of "giving up" on the short term.

Anyway trading veterans after an off year is the best way to get ripped off, I'd rather gamble on guys like Plekanec and Gionta picking things back up next year and go from there.

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04-11-2012, 09:24 PM
  #80
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  • Yes, I want to win now and feel this core is a contender
  • No, I am not opposed to a philosophy change.

Why adding this? I might want to win now and go ahead with the team we got, doing some changes of course. But who the **** thinks this core is a contender?

You clearly intended the 'No' to get more votes.

I call bias.

(kidding)

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04-11-2012, 09:26 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I happen to like Philips, but I still don't see the upside that benefits us. Plekanec is on a reasonable contract and if he avoid injury shouldn't drop off until near the end of it. I just can't stand the idea of "giving up" on the short term.
I don't think we're 'giving up' on the short term. There's a tradeoff for the negative, for sure, but the impact of that move is much less than what we gain moving forward.

Say we get one of Phillips or Beach, both of them could join the team as soon as next year. Phillips would probably be a better fit for the top 6, Beach to play complementary role. Sign a veteran center as a stop-gap and play the leadership role like Arnott or Langkow.

The team might not be great next year, but it can make progress. And that progress is not related to Plekanec's presence. He's a great player, he just doesn't have the sort of impact you can't live without. We can tread water with proper team building.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Anyway trading veterans after an off year is the best way to get ripped off, I'd rather gamble on guys like Plekanec and Gionta picking things back up next year and go from there.
Usually yes, but with this FA market, you're more likely to rip off people, especially with a guy that has a proven track record.

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04-11-2012, 09:29 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by DrunkenHabz View Post
  • Yes, I want to win now and feel this core is a contender
  • No, I am not opposed to a philosophy change.

Why adding this? I might want to win now and go ahead with the team we got, doing some changes of course. But who the **** thinks this core is a contender?

You clearly intended the 'No' to get more votes.

I call bias.

(kidding)
Choice C should be... Do you want a new deal with Canada?


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Old
04-11-2012, 10:45 PM
  #83
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Draft Gally and then trade Pleks and our second to Tor or NYI for there 1st round pick and pick up Forsberg

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Old
04-12-2012, 01:08 AM
  #84
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The base is there so a retool and patience should be good.

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04-12-2012, 03:22 AM
  #85
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Price, gorges, Markov(when healthy), cole, pacioretty, subban, gionta, deharnais, plekanec, Eller. Noway I would rip this team apart.

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04-12-2012, 07:28 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Good GM's don't trade their best players just for a good offer. Stud players are worth more than what a "good" offer can usually bring. Price is worth more to us than a good offer would bring us. Same with Subban Pacioretty Gorges and Plekanec.
I am not talking a Mike Smith and another for Price that is not a good offer. I am talking Corey Schneider and a piece for Price. Schneider is going to be a great starter wherever he ends up going.

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Old
04-12-2012, 08:25 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You know... Pleks might get you Luke Schenn. The Leafs are not happy with him, his name has been bandied about and they now have Gardiner as their rising star. They desperately need a center and Pleks would fit the bill esp since he can play a two way game. They have to make the playoffs this year and I'm not sure where else they're going to find a good center out there. They have cap problems and Pleks isn't that expensive. Burke also wants big 'truculent players' too so maybe we throw in Bourque if he's wanted there.

Schenn wouldn't be a bad guy to go after. He's had a rough go in TO but he's obviously got some skill. He's a young guy and if we could get him to turn it around he could be great for us for years.

Giving him up though, you now have DD and Eller as your one two with LL probably filling in on line 3. You'll sink in the short term at least until this years pick (probably a center) can develop in the next year or two. Adding Schenn, this year and next years' pick isn't bad if we get a high one again. We could be a stacked team in short order by doing this and we'd be stacked for a while with what we already have. Plus we can augment it after next years' draft with UFAs.
I have a feeling Burke will be all over Brayden Schenn with his draft pick and I think the Flyers would bite as they probably need a new high-end prospect at D. One of Dumba, Trouba will be there at 5th. I think he knows better than to trade Luke after a bad season.

That being said, I'm all for trading Pleks to reinforce the defense, but the best option for that might be a draft pick(12th to 17th range). It's hard to get teams off their young first pairing guys since they are gold, hell if we could get Mcdonagh back...lol...I would appreciate us fleecing the Rangers for some reasons(just dreaming). There's not that many options on the table, maybe Runblad, but then again if Pheonix moves to Quebec just forget it.


Last edited by SOLR: 04-12-2012 at 08:47 AM.
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04-12-2012, 08:49 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
I am not talking a Mike Smith and another for Price that is not a good offer. I am talking Corey Schneider and a piece for Price. Schneider is going to be a great starter wherever he ends up going.
Schnieder is 26 years old. He might be a great starter wherever he ends up going. Price already is a great starter at 24 years old. And two years further away from being a UFA. So tell me, on what planet does it make sense to trade Price for Schneider?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyFan87 View Post

At his best, this team with it's current core is no better than a bubble playoff team or a team like say the Calgary Flames. It's better to get our face out of the water and face reality now than to naively believe that this year was just a bad year filled with injuries and that with some tweaks they are good enough to compete for the cup as early as next year.
There's one gigantic difference between Montreal and Calgary - all of the good players on Calgary are old and/or approaching UFA status.

Iginla = 34
Kiprusoff = 35
Jokinen = UFA
Tanguay = UFA
Bouwmeester = Horribly Overpaid

They also have a completely empty cupboard on the farm. Their future looks terrible. Their best player on the roster under 25 is Mikael Backlund and he put up 11 points this year. In fact he's one of their only players under 25 that saw any significant time. TJ Brodie is the other.

Now look at Montreal. Its 3 best players are under 25 in Price, Subban and Pacioretty. They have one potential star at each position. Those 3 players have a future. As thin as people claim it to be, Montreal has a far better group of prospects than Calgary, plus Montreal picks # 3 this year which will only help.

Kiprusoff and Iginla aren't going to get better any time soon. Calgary should be blowing it up. Montreal should not.


Last edited by CGG: 04-12-2012 at 08:59 AM.
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Old
04-12-2012, 09:03 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Lions999 View Post
Draft Gally and then trade Pleks and our second to Tor or NYI for there 1st round pick and pick up Forsberg
not a bad idea, but I think Washington would give a better offer for Pleks as they are in desperate need of a top end #2 Centre...and I want nothing to do with helping TOR, unless they massively overpay (like Pleks + MTL 2nd for TOR 1st + Colbourne....ha!)

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04-12-2012, 09:05 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Schnieder is 26 years old. He might be a great starter wherever he ends up going. Price already is a great starter at 24 years old. And two years further away from being a UFA. So tell me, on what planet does it make sense to trade Price for Schneider?


There's one gigantic difference between Montreal and Calgary - all of the good players on Calgary are old and/or approaching UFA status.

Iginla = 34
Kiprusoff = 35
Jokinen = UFA
Tanguay = UFA
Bouwmeester = Horribly Overpaid

They also have a completely empty cupboard on the farm. Their future looks terrible. Their best player on the roster under 25 is Mikael Backlund and he put up 11 points this year. In fact he's one of their only players under 25 that saw any significant time. TJ Brodie is the other.

Now look at Montreal. Its 3 best players are under 25 in Price, Subban and Pacioretty. They have one potential star at each position. Those 3 players have a future. As thin as people claim it to be, Montreal has a far better group of prospects than Calgary, plus Montreal picks # 3 this year which will only help.

Kiprusoff and Iginla aren't going to get better any time soon. Calgary should be blowing it up. Montreal should not.
Amen. Some people need to see that "blowing up" a team isn't always the best option and to step back from the ledge of just a bad season. We were a decent PP away from making the playoffs, even with all our problems. We'll be ok.

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04-12-2012, 09:27 AM
  #91
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I have a feeling Burke will be all over Brayden Schenn with his draft pick and I think the Flyers would bite as they probably need a new high-end prospect at D. One of Dumba, Trouba will be there at 5th. I think he knows better than to trade Luke after a bad season.

That being said, I'm all for trading Pleks to reinforce the defense, but the best option for that might be a draft pick(12th to 17th range). It's hard to get teams off their young first pairing guys since they are gold, hell if we could get Mcdonagh back...lol...I would appreciate us fleecing the Rangers for some reasons(just dreaming). There's not that many options on the table, maybe Runblad, but then again if Pheonix moves to Quebec just forget it.
I'd rather we trade for a prospect with Pleks rather than a pick, esp if it's for D. If we got a pick it's going to take longer for him to develop and defensemen on average take longer than forwards do. You're probably right at 30 he won't get Schenn unless we include something else with him. Maybe some of the 2nds we have could get the job done.

Please don't talk about McDonnaugh it still hurts me to think about.

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04-12-2012, 09:34 AM
  #92
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upset? no. But I think we have a good base and just need to improve from there. Trade a few vets for pick/prospects? sure. I can live without Gionta, Kaberle, Gomez, Bourque.. I could even live without Markov and Plekanec depending on our return. But we have a solid young core in Price, Subban, MaxPac and DD. Add other young players like Emelin, Eller, Leblanc... I don't think a rebuild is what is needed.

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04-12-2012, 09:45 AM
  #93
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upset? no. But I think we have a good base and just need to improve from there. Trade a few vets for pick/prospects? sure. I can live without Gionta, Kaberle, Gomez, Bourque.. I could even live without Markov and Plekanec depending on our return. But we have a solid young core in Price, Subban, MaxPac and DD. Add other young players like Emelin, Eller, Leblanc... I don't think a rebuild is what is needed.
agreed. Go to free agency and get a 4th line Centre, go after a 2nd/3rd line LW and a physical Dman. All of which can be found relatively cheap and easily. This adds the depth needed, keeps all the picks and prospects in the system to be devellopped and is much more realistic than massive pre-draft trades by a GM that was hired on only weeks before

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04-12-2012, 10:56 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
I am not talking a Mike Smith and another for Price that is not a good offer. I am talking Corey Schneider and a piece for Price. Schneider is going to be a great starter wherever he ends up going.
And why exactly would the Canucks do Schneider+ for Price when they have Luongo? Don't say they'll trade Luongo, because then they could just keep Schneider.

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04-12-2012, 11:02 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'd rather we trade for a prospect with Pleks rather than a pick, esp if it's for D. If we got a pick it's going to take longer for him to develop and defensemen on average take longer than forwards do. You're probably right at 30 he won't get Schenn unless we include something else with him. Maybe some of the 2nds we have could get the job done.

Please don't talk about McDonnaugh it still hurts me to think about.
Schenn this year was abysmal defensively in easy minutes (and he has gotten worse over the last two seasons). In terms of on-ice performance Luke Schenn is Theo Peckham or Luca Sbisa but with draft pedigree. Schenn's contract isn't exactly team-friendly given how poor he has been either.

If the Habs are dealing a #1/top-end #2 centre like Plekanec for a defenseman they better be getting someone who can handle top-4 defense minutes already while being very likely to reach the potential of being able to play top-pairing minutes and outplay the opposition.

Edit: Sbisa/Peckham comparison is from here, it uses your favorite "advanced" stat in Corsi (though it's adjusted for the zone-starts). If you take a look at the high-res version of the chart you'll get even more heart-ache from seeing where McDonagh is (further right & larger dark blue circle = better. Further left, larger white circle = worse).


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04-12-2012, 11:29 AM
  #96
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If we have a gm with vision I don't care what he does.

I just want someone with a solid plan who has the balls to do whatever it takes to make his plan come through.

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04-12-2012, 11:40 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by wedge View Post
upset? no. But I think we have a good base and just need to improve from there. Trade a few vets for pick/prospects? sure. I can live without Gionta, Kaberle, Gomez, Bourque.. I could even live without Markov and Plekanec depending on our return. But we have a solid young core in Price, Subban, MaxPac and DD. Add other young players like Emelin, Eller, Leblanc... I don't think a rebuild is what is needed.
Not enough IMHO. Nor will it be easy, painless, and inexpensive to dump your baggage.

We act to act grown up and avoid being simplistic in our suggestions.

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04-12-2012, 11:41 AM
  #98
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I'd deal Plekanec for something like Zack Phillips and Minny's 2nd, or Chicago's 1st + Beach/MacNeil. Something along those lines.
Sure you'd do that, but no way either of those teams takes on a $5 million cap hit for the next 4 years without sending something our way to displace it.

Ok, If I'm Minny I'm offering something like a P.M Bouchard back (~$4 million cap hit) and my 2nd for Pleks and MTL's 3rd.

And how does MTL benefit from trading a Top PP guy, one of the Top forward PKers in the NHL? Find me another forward that comes close to Pleks over 3minutes/gm average for both PK and PP. Heck, find me another player that does that. He brings so much more than G & A.

It'd be a far hope in hell that Minny's 2nd would turn out to be 1/2 the player Pleks is... In 5 years. I don't understand how you don't see a trade like this 'giving up'.

The only way you trade a "Vet" for a pick(s) or prospect straight up is if they're impending UFA and we're 1/2 way through the season.

Otherwise you're taking salary back.

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04-12-2012, 11:43 AM
  #99
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In my opinion we don't need a full rebuild....

Though we do need to teak the lineup....


Keep the first line
Cole (4.5) - Desharnais (850k) - Pacioretty (1.625)

Second line

Gionta (5) - Plekanec - (5) - Semin (6)

Third line

Bourque (3,333,333) - Eller (~1.5) - Moen (~1.5)

Fourth line

Blunden (~750K) - White (~850k) - Staubitz (~850k)

Darche (700k), Leblanc (1.17)

$33,628,333 for forwards


1st pair of Defense

Markov (5.75) - Suter (~7.25)

2nd pair of Defense

Subban (~4.25) - Gorges (3.9)

3rd pair of Defense

Emelin (~1.75) - Kaberle (4.25)

Diaz (~1.3)

$28,450,000 for Defense

Price (5.5)

Budaj (1.15)

$6,650,000 for Goalies

Assuming there will be a buyout period that doesn't count under the cap for one player under the new CBA, the habs buyout Gomez.

Total with all players (assuming the players will get what I approximated):

$68,728,333

The Salary cap this year I believe was $64,150,000 and it should increase next year (depending on the new CBA). Though we would still probably be over. To get down to the cap we would either need to send Kaberle to the minors, have someone start on the IR, or trade Kaberle for practically nothing.

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04-12-2012, 11:48 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Jiggernaut View Post
Sure you'd do that, but no way either of those teams takes on a $5 million cap hit for the next 4 years without sending something our way to displace it.

Ok, If I'm Minny I'm offering something like a P.M Bouchard back (~$4 million cap hit) and my 2nd for Pleks and MTL's 3rd.

And how does MTL benefit from trading a Top PP guy, one of the Top forward PKers in the NHL? Find me another forward that comes close to Pleks over 3minutes/gm average for both PK and PP. Heck, find me another player that does that. He brings so much more than G & A.

It'd be a far hope in hell that Minny's 2nd would turn out to be 1/2 the player Pleks is... In 5 years. I don't understand how you don't see a trade like this 'giving up'.

The only way you trade a "Vet" for a pick(s) or prospect straight up is if they're impending UFA and we're 1/2 way through the season.

Otherwise you're taking salary back.
You can take salary back without taking PM Bouchard and a pick. That deal makes absolutely no sense for the Habs and is a massive steal for Minny.

I'd take PM Bouchard no problem, but I'm also taking Zack Phillips, that second rounder and asking for Haula/Palmieri/Bulmer in the same deal for the kindness of taking 4M$ off their books.

They also have close to 20M$ in cap space heading into next season, with PM Bouchard, I don't see the hurry of giving away some salary.

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