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The new "what to do about Howson" thread

View Poll Results: What should ownership do with GM Scott Howson during the offseason?
Keep him 18 21.43%
Fire him 66 78.57%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-11-2012, 03:53 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
And yet, one of those leaders was indeed a signatory of the Constitution and a good political leader--George Washington. Ben Franklin was also one of the signatories of both documents.

Neither would have drafted Filatov.
The way Gore Vidal tells the story, Washington not only would have drafted Filatov, but would have given him absolute control. Of course, that's only because Aaron Burr is Filatov's real father.

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I meant 3 years and typed 5. Whatevs.
I'm not sure what's more strange: the fact that this discussion has gone this far off track (although, with me around, that could have been predicted), or that you just said "whatevs".

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04-11-2012, 03:58 PM
  #202
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Anybody know where we can order transcripts of Capn's testimony?

Or maybe the Cliff notes?

(Holy ***** guys)

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04-11-2012, 04:01 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by JACKETfan View Post
Anybody know where we can order transcripts of Capn's testimony?

Or maybe the Cliff notes?

(Holy ***** guys)
I 'unno, but I found this picture of me and Capn from a couple years back.


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04-11-2012, 04:10 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I 'unno, but I found this picture of me and Capn from a couple years back.

Please keep these people in mind before you guys assault my scrolling finger in yet another thread:


The guy who founded Cliff Notes, Cliff Hillegass.






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04-11-2012, 04:14 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by JACKETfan View Post
Please keep these people in mind before you guys assault my scrolling finger in yet another thread:
...
Then why is your post longer than mine?

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04-11-2012, 05:05 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by JACKETfan View Post
Anybody know where we can order transcripts of Capn's testimony?

Or maybe the Cliff notes?

(Holy ***** guys)
Phil Donahue Show
c/o Bob's Transcript Service
P.O. Box 666
White Plains, NY 00000

(By the way, who the heck were the people that used to buy transcripts to TV shows back in the day? Was there a Pony Express version of political discussion boards on the Internet where people would cut and paste things from such transcripts into a newsletter like the way people played fantasy baseball before home computers?)

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04-11-2012, 06:38 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post

I go back to your own statements defending Scott Howson's failures in Edmonton based on the fact that there were allegedly no players left when the poor Oilers drafted mid-late first round. But the guys drafting at the end of the round should have done as well or better than the Blue Jackets who drafted in the lottery.

Not only that, I've in the past provided statistical analysis (as have others) showing your proposition to be false. Heck, there's a huge difference between picks 1 and 3 let alone pick 2 and pick 30. That you would attempt to argue otherwise is making you look sillier and sillier.
Let's make it as simple as possible specially for you.
You pointed at Detroit and mentioned Franzen as an example of good drafting.
In 2006-09 Detroit drafted 0 NHL players in ANY round.
The Jackets has drafted 4 players with 20+ NHL games OUTSIDE of the 1st round in the same period of time.
I mean even idiot would have accepted the fact that the Jackets did much better than Detroit since 2006. Same goes to Boston, Chicago, etc.... You keep bringing all irrelevant crap and don't pay any attention to my questions about providing any facts or stats to support your position.
You said:
Quote:
there is good reason to suspect Howson's inaction in fixing the franchise's farm system has led to trouble developing talent after it is acquired.
I was trying to find out what exactly is that indication... You just refuse to provide anything on that.

Quote:
Actually, my argument is that I don't find the argument that Howson's drafting is great to be a convincing one and a reason to retain him. And you have failed to convince me and refuse to even try. Which reminds me, I thought this conversation was over?
Since it apparently isn't...I'll take blahblah's advice for you and reiterate the course of this conversation, and what my argument ACTUALLY was.
So, now that I've exposed your attempt to twist my words, is there anything else you'd like to add?
And I again go back to my own words as to my position on this...

Sounds like I said exactly what his role was from the beginning. He was involved in the drafting process (i.e. helped). And so he was.
You can say I twisted you words, but just just "forgot" to bring the rest of your quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Want to know why the Oilers still suck even after all those high draft picks? Go back and take a look at the base they had to build with what was drafted in the KLowe-Howson era.
There was "Low/Howson" era, not just "Low era" in Edmonton! You said "helped" and then made him responsible for the lack of draft success. Off course you had to mention Low, but that was just extra typing on you part.

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I don't know if he's responsible for them being unsuccessful, but I do know he wasn't responsible for them being successful...because they weren't.
How does this establish that Howson was good or poor at drafting? The failure of people to previously see a fault is not evidence that the fault doesn't exist.
I didn't focus on Howson's drafting when he was hired because I wasn't the one responsible for hiring him for one thing, but also because the main reason he was hired was as a capologist. Which he has failed at miserably.
Well. Then you shouldn't have touched the "Edmonton draft" topic at all. Howson's first drafts with the Jackets look promising and that's all what matters. What really doesn't matter is that how you're trying to diminish his fair success at players evaluation and development.

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04-11-2012, 06:55 PM
  #208
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Bottom line:

Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
... should Howson retain his job? When you are in your 5th year and it was your worst year, as a franchise, the answer should be obvious.
Answer has become clear to me, but does not appear to have achieved the same clarity for JrMac.

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04-11-2012, 07:05 PM
  #209
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Nope, been reading the exchanges. You are making assumptions. My intention was clear with my post. I can agree and disagree with you. I can separate arguments and judge them independently.
all this thread is about assumptions. At the end you are just assuming that Howson's firing would be better for the Jackets success. And I'm assuming it could be even worse.

Quote:
I have. Which facts do you think I have not considered that would sway my opinion? I have been following Howson closely since he was hired. My opinions based on facts are well established and have been the source of much contention during his entire tenure. I was debating what I thought of as his failures from the first full season when Capn was supporting him.
I don't think you will find many, if any, here that has followed his tenure as closely as I.
Howson has had a piss poor tenure with the roster. I said it before, I'll say it again. Some are being unfair with his drafting record. I defend him when there are some being unreasonable. However, on whole, Howson does not deserve the opportunity to represent this franchise going forward.
In line with the stupid debate yesterday, at some point lightning will strike and Howson will put up a playoff team. Who knows, he might even grow as a GM to the point he doesn't have the stench of failure all over him. However that doesn't mean he should still be employed. Having him as the GM of this team is a disgrace to the players, fans, and coaching staff.
And I wasn't his supporter till recently. But why would the Jackets hire another GM and start everything over again? Because Howson couldn't put the competitive team together for 4 years? I highly doubt anybody could. I mean they could do a better job, but nobody would have put this team over the top. Maybe you could explain what he has done wrong during the last year and what he should have done to become a decent GM? Personally for me the last year, the worst in franchise history, is the reason to give him another chance. As that was pointed many times youngsters development and his trades were positive. Atmosphere inside the team seems good. This defensive core is the best the Jackets ever had. For the 1st time in many years looks like he's moving the team in the right direction.

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04-11-2012, 07:20 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Let's make it as simple as possible specially for you.
You pointed at Detroit and mentioned Franzen as an example of good drafting.
In 2006-09 Detroit drafted 0 NHL players in ANY round.
The Jackets has drafted 4 players with 20+ NHL games OUTSIDE of the 1st round in the same period of time.
I mean even idiot would have accepted the fact that the Jackets did much better than Detroit since 2006. Same goes to Boston, Chicago, etc.... You keep bringing all irrelevant crap and don't pay any attention to my questions about providing any facts or stats to support your position.
Yawn.

You again fail to consider another possibility--Detroit, Boston and Chicago are (drum roll please) Stanley Cup contenders. Regular playoff teams. They didn't need to call up 4 players that they drafted because...they already have NHL-ready players in their lineup.

This goes back to Doug MacLean rushing prospects. He did it because he didn't acquire depth via free agency. So he would enter seasons with Gilbert Brule penciled in as his second line center. Was it because Doug was a good drafter and Brule was a future phenom? No. It was because of Doug's other inadequacies as a GM.

So, simply stating that Player X played 20 NHL games and Player Y played 0 games is not in and of itself an indicator that the team that drafted Player X did a better job drafting.

What I keep bringing up is the flaws in your logic. I don't have to refute your premise with any statistics. The logic is flawed so the argument fails on its own.

Quote:
You said:
I was trying to find out what exactly is that indication... You just refuse to provide anything on that.
Let's see--the failure of Filatov and Mayorov, the struggles of Moore, Johansen and Brassard. The fact that the team had no defensive coach in the AHL at a time when there were several top level defensive prospects. Tip of the iceberg.


Quote:
There was "Low/Howson" era, not just "Low era" in Edmonton! You said "helped" and then made him responsible for the lack of draft success. Off course you had to mention Low, but that was just extra typing on you part.
No it wasn't extra typing. Howson assisted (i.e. helped) in the scouting of players, so he does bare part of the responsibility. Maybe not all of it, but part of it. How hard is this for you to understand?


Quote:
Howson's first drafts with the Jackets look promising.
Based on what, your opinion? Again, I've seen no convincing evidence of any great success by Howson in drafting.


Last edited by CapnCornelius: 04-11-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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04-11-2012, 07:21 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Atmosphere inside the team seems good.
Sure, if you ignore the whole team captain demanding a trade thing.

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04-11-2012, 08:36 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Sure, if you ignore the whole team captain demanding a trade thing.
He did? That's news to me.

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04-11-2012, 09:31 PM
  #213
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According to GMSH
Quote:
“He approached us and asked us to trade him,”
Howitzer is correct, there was no demand according to public record.

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04-11-2012, 10:08 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by IBleedUnionBlue View Post
According to GMSH

Howitzer is correct, there was no demand according to public record.
Aren't we quibbling over semantics? Either way, the team captain wants out.

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04-11-2012, 10:58 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Howson's first drafts with the Jackets look promising and that's all what matters.
"That's all what matters."

Thank you for understanding.

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04-11-2012, 11:02 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
all this thread is about assumptions. At the end you are just assuming that Howson's firing would be better for the Jackets success. And I'm assuming it could be even worse.
Dear Lord. You making assumptions about what Capn is saying.

Done with you.

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04-12-2012, 05:15 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Dear Lord. You making assumptions about what Capn is saying.

Done with you.
I quoted later what he was saying.
Done with you forever.

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04-12-2012, 06:23 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Yawn.
You again fail to consider another possibility--Detroit, Boston and Chicago are (drum roll please) Stanley Cup contenders. Regular playoff teams. They didn't need to call up 4 players that they drafted because...they already have NHL-ready players in their lineup.
This goes back to Doug MacLean rushing prospects. He did it because he didn't acquire depth via free agency. So he would enter seasons with Gilbert Brule penciled in as his second line center. Was it because Doug was a good drafter and Brule was a future phenom? No. It was because of Doug's other inadequacies as a GM.
So, simply stating that Player X played 20 NHL games and Player Y played 0 games is not in and of itself an indicator that the team that drafted Player X did a better job drafting.
We're talking here about players who're 20-22 years old. Brule was 18. Again pulled out of nowhere argument. Detroit gonna have at most 3 NHLers from those 3 drafts. The Jackets at least 6. Good luck connecting their Cup wins to the draft failures.
Quote:
Let's see--the failure of Filatov and Mayorov, the struggles of Moore, Johansen and Brassard. The fact that the team had no defensive coach in the AHL at a time when there were several top level defensive prospects. Tip of the iceberg.
Are you serious? There was "Mayorov failure" and that's somehow Howson's fault? You just making up your points. Mayorov was 4th round pick. 40+ players drafted in front of him didn't play a single NHL game, including LA's 4th overall pick... Johansen and Moore struggled because of the bad management? I thought most of the young players struggles at times in the 1st NHL year. You changed my world. Chiarelly probably is the one to blame for Seguin's struggles last year.
Moore is a 21 years old and he has played his 1st NHL season. I wish any reasonable person would have supported you on your ridiculous statement that Moore's and Johansen's struggles are Howson's fault
Had no idea defencsive coach in the AHL is a necessity. But I'm glad the Jackets have those good defensive prospect that were able to jump in and help the team to finish at 55%. Back in Russia they've never knew about existence of defensive coaches and Nikitin along with other Russian d-men developed just fine.
If that's all what you were able to come up with I have to assume your indications were made up in your black and white world. Reality was left on the side.

Quote:
No it wasn't extra typing. Howson assisted (i.e. helped) in the scouting of players, so he does bare part of the responsibility. Maybe not all of it, but part of it. How hard is this for you to understand?
Let me try to ruing your imagination about Howson's responsibility for the Edmonton draft. Too much typing for me... But well... Howson was GM assistant and was doing scouting. Great. Do you even realize there's amateur and professional scouting? What kind of scouting Howson was doing in Edmonton? Could you give me example of any GM assistant scouting juniors leagues? I've never heard of that. There's at least 99% chance Howson had never saw Richards or Perry playing in juniors. Cause that's called amateur scouting and all the process is controlled by Director of Amateur Scouting and is done by amateur scouts.
GM assistants never travel across North America to see 17-years old kids. I've never heard of it. As much as you want you can't even partially blame Howson for the Edmonton draft results cause that's not what he was doing.
On the other hand he was watching NHL games and he was scouting NHL players. That's and AHL is called "pro scouting". Him and Low made a few trades and they put together the Western Conference champions team. Considering his trade record with the CBJ we could make conclusion he's a good trader and actually was able to put together a good team (off course with Low) even without any successful drafting.
You've tried to blame Howson for something he just can not be blamed for. And didn't even think to give him a props where he deserved it. Only black and white.

Quote:
Based on what, your opinion? Again, I've seen no convincing evidence of any great success by Howson in drafting.
Based on my personal impression of Atkinson, York, Voracek, Kubalik, Savard, Moore... I listed Voracek cause we've got a decent return for him. Based on comparison to another teams draft results. I brought at least some stats to prove it. And stats don't lie. You still have only your opinion and "last place" primitive argument.


Last edited by bizzz*: 04-12-2012 at 07:00 AM.
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04-12-2012, 06:27 AM
  #219
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Aren't we quibbling over semantics? Either way, the team captain wants out.
There is a big difference between asking to be traded if the team felt it would help in a rebuild and demanding a trade because he no longer wants to be here.

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04-12-2012, 06:35 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by dru View Post
"That's all what matters."

Thank you for understanding.
Thank you for taking my phrase out of context (we had a long conversation about Howson's draft skills) and putting that smily next to your comment.
All what blahblah was ably to answer is that he's done with me. Maybe you would enlighten me? Posting smiles and putting paper bags on your head is easy.
Quote:
Maybe you could explain what he has done wrong during the last year and what he should have done to become a decent GM?
Simple question....EVERYONE who wants changes should have had the answer. I see only primitiveness of the "we're the last place team, Howson should go" position.

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04-12-2012, 06:39 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Sure, if you ignore the whole team captain demanding a trade thing.
I thought that was clear I meant atmosphere after JJ's trade. And Nash asked about the trade like 2 month prior to it.

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04-12-2012, 06:43 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
Aren't we quibbling over semantics? Either way, the team captain wants out.
Read carefully the entire thread. People on both sides are cherry picking arguments. And when they disagree, they are using typical internet forum tactics to belittle and dismiss the other.

As for Nash, he asked for a trade. That is a matter of public record. I know it sounds more inflammatory to suggest he demanded a trade, but there is no evidence to support that conclusion.

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04-12-2012, 07:00 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
... I see only primitiveness of the "we're the last place team, Howson should go" position.
That's not primitive, biz, that's basic. If your job is to produce a winning team and you don't do it in five years, then your job is, and should be, in jeopardy. I don't understand why you find it necessary to carry this argument so far - you think Howson deserves more time, others think his time is up. You seem set in your position and I see nothing in your arguments that's going to change anyone's mind who disagrees.

Just move on.

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04-12-2012, 07:53 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
That's not primitive, biz, that's basic. If your job is to produce a winning team and you don't do it in five years, then your job is, and should be, in jeopardy. I don't understand why you find it necessary to carry this argument so far - you think Howson deserves more time, others think his time is up. You seem set in your position and I see nothing in your arguments that's going to change anyone's mind who disagrees.

Just move on.
But maybe I'm wrong and Howson deserves a boot? No one even tried to convince me or Mayor that GMSH is harmful for the future of the franchise based on his last year moves. You look at the 5 years results in general while I look at his last year moves and see the significant improvement.
I would try to compare Howson's career in Columbus to an NHL player. When kid gets drafted and for 4 years struggles making his way to the NHL usually he gets kicked out (like Filatov). But if the youngster shows significant improvement in his 5th season any management would have gave him a chance. Howson is like that prospect who has done a good job in his last year but some wants to get rid of him only because of his early struggles. That's just strange to me. And now I gonna move on.

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04-12-2012, 07:58 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
That's not primitive, biz, that's basic. If your job is to produce a winning team and you don't do it in five years, then your job is, and should be, in jeopardy. I don't understand why you find it necessary to carry this argument so far - you think Howson deserves more time, others think his time is up. You seem set in your position and I see nothing in your arguments that's going to change anyone's mind who disagrees.

Just move on.
The arguments are formed from more than the premise "We are a last place team, therefore Howson should go". Since that is what he is getting out of it, there is nothing more than needs to be said and nothing of value will come from further discussion. He has comprehended little from the debate thus far. I have no issue with his opinion, I do with his apparent lack of comprehension to the other side and the generalization and simplification of the opinions, like the one you quoted and I referenced.

That he even just simplified the discussion down into something as "This years moves being harmful to the franchise" is another example. Damage was done previously, so what is each move going to be harmful? Vermette for Leclaire was a good move. Tyutin for Zherdev was a good move. Commie was a piss poor move. The fact that he was signing young players early to contracts they hadn't earned was damaging to the franchise. We know that the JJ trade was a good one. Kudos to Howson. However, it doesn't change the overall body of work.

Since Howson has had previously made good trades, Capn admitted as much - thus the whole, winning the battle losing the war comments that this guy clearly missed, followed by horrible moves, the whole premise that these moves can be a sign that "Howson has learned" it just ignoring history. It may be true, also history tells us that the likelihood is that he hasn't learned a damn thing. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.... Well shame on biz.

I'll debate it with MB if I see something new coming to the discussion or if I feel something needs clarity.


Last edited by blahblah: 04-12-2012 at 08:07 AM.
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