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The new "what to do about Howson" thread

View Poll Results: What should ownership do with GM Scott Howson during the offseason?
Keep him 18 21.43%
Fire him 66 78.57%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-12-2012, 08:15 AM
  #226
Double-Shift Lassé
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Done with you.
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Done with you forever.
This is what it's come to? This thread is a steaming pile of garbage. And now we're into thinly-veiled personal attacks disguised as debate?

For the time being, I suggest the following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Just move on.

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Old
04-12-2012, 08:32 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by 1857 Howitzer View Post
There is a big difference between asking to be traded if the team felt it would help in a rebuild and demanding a trade because he no longer wants to be here.
I'll give props to Nash as far as how he's worded it and skirted the topic, but its naive to think Nash's reasons for asking to be moved are motivated purely by wanting to help the CBJ.

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04-12-2012, 08:43 AM
  #228
pete goegan
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
I'll give props to Nash as far as how he's worded it and skirted the topic, but its naive to think Nash's reasons for asking to be moved are motivated purely by wanting to help the CBJ.
"Purely?" No.
Mostly? Probably not.
Partly? Probably.

That's more than one can usually expect from today's star players.

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04-12-2012, 08:44 AM
  #229
1857 Howitzer
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
I'll give props to Nash as far as how he's worded it and skirted the topic, but its naive to think Nash's reasons for asking to be moved are motivated purely by wanting to help the CBJ.
Maybe but it is also reckless to suggest that he demanded to be traded. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle.

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04-12-2012, 08:46 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
"Purely?" No.
Mostly? Probably not.
Partly? Probably.

That's more than one can usually expect from today's star players.
Whats your definition of "partly" though? I'd just figured I'd ask since everybody seems to be splitting hairs on semantics.

I look at it this way Pete. Management said they didn't decide to trade him, they don't have to trade him, but the team's beat writers are telling us there's a 5 percent chance or less he's back, that tells me the desire to leave might be greater than "partly".

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04-12-2012, 08:49 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Whats your definition of "partly" though?

I look at it this way Pete. Management said they didn't decide to trade him, they don't have to trade him, but the team's beat writers are telling us there's a 5 percent chance or less he's back, that tells me the desire to leave might be greater than "partly".
All this tells me is that the beat writers desire for a trade is greater than anything.


Last edited by 1857 Howitzer: 04-12-2012 at 09:16 AM.
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04-12-2012, 08:50 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
We're talking here about players who're 20-22 years old. Brule was 18. Again pulled out of nowhere argument.
Age isn't what the issue is. Depth is. If you are playing a glorified AHL player at any age (cough*Aaron Johnson*cough) it is because as a GM you failed to get depth through trades or free agent acquisitions so that player wasn't on your roster.

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Had no idea defencsive coach in the AHL is a necessity. But I'm glad the Jackets have those good defensive prospect that were able to jump in and help the team to finish at 55%. Back in Russia they've never knew about existence of defensive coaches and Nikitin along with other Russian d-men developed just fine.
Now we went on the non-surge because of John Moore's pathetic plus/minus? Who was the other defensive prospect you were thinking of that helped? Brett Lebda?

You're right, the Jackets have never had problems with developing young players [looks at Steve Mason sitting in the corner crying].

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Do you even realize there's amateur and professional scouting? What kind of scouting Howson was doing in Edmonton? Could you give me example of any GM assistant scouting juniors leagues? I've never heard of that.
Here's a quote from the Dispatch about our own Chris MacFarland (again, assistant GM) during the courting of Scott Arniel (also known as, yet another huge Howson mistake).

Quote:
Arniel's package was hand-delivered to him in Winnipeg over the weekend by Blue Jackets assistant general manager Chris MacFarland, who is scouting the Memorial Cup in nearby Brandon, Manitoba. Dineen's was mailed.
Why don't you drop the defense of Howson's tenure in Edmonton as it relates to drafting?

Quote:
Based on my personal impression of Atkinson, York, Voracek, Kubalik, Savard, Moore... I listed Voracek cause we've got a decent return for him. Based on comparison to another teams draft results. I brought at least some stats to prove it. And stats don't lie. You still have only your opinion and "last place" primitive argument.
So, getting back to this whole idea that Howson is great at drafting, what would you say if I have a GM who drafted 8 players with 20 games or more of NHL experience during his most recent 5 year span as GM? I assume that GM would be viewed as a better drafter than the likes of Detroit, Chicago, etc.?

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04-12-2012, 08:57 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
This is what it's come to? This thread is a steaming pile of garbage. And now we're into thinly-veiled personal attacks disguised as debate?
It was a steaming pile of garbage many pages ago, long before those posts. Sadly, however, what you quoted wasn't personal attacks, they were attempt to "move on". It was an acknowledgment that we didn't feel any value was going to come from further discussion.

Quote:
For the time being, I suggest the following.
Agreed.

If you aren't convinced that Howson needs to go at this point, there is nothing anyone can say to convince you. I've got a couple of valid reasons for him to stay, none of which are because of his GM'ing ability. They are not new, but here they are.

1. I'd rather Howson be known as the GM that trades Nash. The next guy isn't going to want to trade him. Who wants that on their resume?
2. In the event that Priest decides to resign and move on, the next President should be free to bring in a new GM if that is his desire. No sense hiring one that won't agree to an evergreen contract and have to can his ass because a new President wants someone else.

There you go. Since I don't think the success or failure of the Nash trade will define this franchise long term, as most are making it out to be, I'm not going to bother responding to "You trust Howson to trade Nash?". I will state it now, clearly. This franchise will not be set up for failure for the next 5 years if we get nothing of value for Nash. However, it can be set up for success with the right deal. I don't Hate Howson's trading abilities. Therefore I'm not concerned about that.

What I am concerned about is the FA period and what he is going to do with the rest of the roster. However, I'm not going to dwell on it, it's out of my hands.

Nothing we do this off season is going to be optimal. Be prepared for a bumpy ride.

If I have a biggest fear, it is that we do just well enough to limp along. Howson seems to subscribe to faith based GM'ing. Once he is encouraged by something, he seems stop looking to improve. Much like the defense after the playoff run.


Last edited by blahblah: 04-12-2012 at 09:03 AM.
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Old
04-12-2012, 09:45 AM
  #234
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Well. I'm trying to answer those question I'm asked... Now as short as possible...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Age isn't what the issue is. Depth is. If you are playing a glorified AHL player at any age (cough*Aaron Johnson*cough) it is because as a GM you failed to get depth through trades or free agent acquisitions so that player wasn't on your roster.
No, that's because you have 4 NHL d-men injured and bunch of kids developing in the minors.
Quote:
Now we went on the non-surge because of John Moore's pathetic plus/minus? Who was the other defensive prospect you were thinking of that helped? Brett Lebda?
Maybe you've never heard of them, but I saw some guys named Savard, Prout and Goloubef playing for the Jackets recently.
Quote:
You're right, the Jackets have never had problems with developing young players [looks at Steve Mason sitting in the corner crying].
I like it when you try to make Howson responsible for every struggling youngster and don't give him any credit for the development of the guys like Atkinson or Savard.

Quote:
Here's a quote from the Dispatch about our own Chris MacFarland (again, assistant GM) during the courting of Scott Arniel (also known as, yet another huge Howson mistake).
Memorial cup is a major CHL tournament. Only 4 best teams are playing there. You again failed to bring in any evidence that Howson had any relation to the Edmonton draft choices. And again cherry picked only the part of my post completely ignoring the fact that Edmonton was the WC champs. Didn't you say recently that Howson's never been a part of any successful team?


Quote:
Why don't you drop the defense of Howson's tenure in Edmonton as it relates to drafting?
Why don't you stop making him responsible for something he can't be responsible for?

Quote:
So, getting back to this whole idea that Howson is great at drafting,
Keep twisting my words? When did I said that Howson is great at drafting? I remember saying that he was better than most NHL GMs at it, which means he was in the top-15. He's good at most (how can we forget about Filatov?) and that's about it.
Quote:
what would you say if I have a GM who drafted 8 players with 20 games or more of NHL experience during his most recent 5 year span as GM? I assume that GM would be viewed as a better drafter than the likes of Detroit, Chicago, etc.?
At this point - definitely. In a couple years these terrible drafts are gonna hunt the team like Detroit. Last night I watched the Nashville-Detroit game and at the last minute the Wings had on the ice only 30+ years old guys. Well, except Hudler who isn't exactly an NHL star.
You were right that they don't rush their prospects, but even in the best case scenario Detroit can get at most 3 average NHLers out of those drafts. Boston and Chicago best players are still young and their future doesn't look as bad as Detroit's, but this fact doesn't make Chiarelly or Bowman good drafting GMs since their core was drafted prior to their arrival.

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04-12-2012, 09:59 AM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
I like it when you try to make Howson responsible for every struggling youngster and don't give him any credit for the development of the guys like Atkinson or Savard.
Why do we need to give Howson props right now for Atkinson? Kid just graduated from B.C. last season, If anything, the Jackets had little control over his development until this season....

And lets wait before we proclaim Cam as a success.... Calvert went through a similar situation (used up all his eligibility in juniors) he had a decent first season here, and now he can't seem to buy a call up.

We are quickly going to find out just how great a drafter Howson is because his first few classes are finally starting to "graduate" to pro hockey.

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04-12-2012, 10:21 AM
  #236
bizzz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Why do we need to give Howson props right now for Atkinson? Kid just graduated from B.C. last season, If anything, the Jackets had little control over his development until this season....

And lets wait before we proclaim Cam as a success.... Calvert went through a similar situation (used up all his eligibility in juniors) he had a decent first season here, and now he can't seem to buy a call up.

We are quickly going to find out just how great a drafter Howson is because his first few classes are finally starting to "graduate" to pro hockey.
So we probably shouldn't blame Howson for the Johansen and Moore early struggles as well. Let's wait before we proclaim RyJo as a failure.

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04-12-2012, 10:25 AM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
I like it when you try to make Howson responsible for every struggling youngster and don't give him any credit for the development of the guys like Atkinson or Savard.
Because we don't have anything to back up NHL level success for Atkinson or Savard. We do have plenty to back up NHL level failures.


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Memorial cup is a major CHL tournament. Only 4 best teams are playing there.
Good lord. It is but one example and totally disproves your whole "well I never" routine. Yes, AGM's do amateur scouting. Moving on...


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Edmonton was the WC champs. Didn't you say recently that Howson's never been a part of any successful team?
No, I said he has no history to back up your confidence in his drafting. Stay focused here. We're talking about drafting. The Stanley Cup is a red herring--if Howson doesn't deserve full blame for the Oilers drafting (what we are talking about) he sure as heck doesn't get full credit for the Oilers making it to the SCF.

Quote:
Keep twisting my words? When did I said that Howson is great at drafting? I remember saying that he was better than most NHL GMs at it, which means he was in the top-15. He's good at most (how can we forget about Filatov?) and that's about it.
So, your whole draft defense of Howson is for not. "Good" at drafting is not enough to overcome his poor handling of other facets of the job.

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At this point - definitely.
Let me introduce you the GM I was talking about and his team. His name is Doug MacLean. The team is the 2006-07 Columbus Blue Jackets.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...023302007.html

And this is why the defense of Howson based on drafting fails. Doug could also make some claims based on his drafting--heck, he had two 30 plus point players on the team that he'd drafted in the prior 5 years, which is more than Howson can say. But he, like Howson, failed at the big picture--team building.

The prosecution rests.

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04-12-2012, 10:30 AM
  #238
KeithBWhittington
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
So we probably shouldn't blame Howson for the Johansen and Moore early struggles as well. Let's wait before we proclaim RyJo as a failure.
I haven't said Moore or RyJo were failures... But I'm certainly not ready to proclaim them as successes simply because they played for the last place team in the NHL this season....

Johansen had 21 points in his first season on the team... Hell, Gilbert Brule had 19 points in his first full season with the team and both were first round picks....

Forgive me if I'm not ready to judge Johansen as a total success yet, the guy was obviously ready, talent-wise, for the NHL this season, playing another year in Portland might have been preferrable if we knew then that this would be a total wash of a season....


Last edited by KeithBWhittington: 04-12-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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04-12-2012, 10:43 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
This is what it's come to? This thread is a steaming pile of garbage.
And what bugs me about it is that, thanks to the editing and combining, my name is listed on there as the thread starter!

Anyone who knows me knows that I wouldn't create a poll unless it was to reinforce my viewpoint, since clear opposition just reminds me that I don't care what anyone else thinks.

Actually, if I were to create a poll on an issue like this, it would be over the question of one more year with the end result being conditional upon at least a playoff appearance. I don't think there are that many hardcore people on either side of the current issue...there's probably 10% who absolutely support the current regime, 10% who absolutely oppose it, and the middle 80% falling somewhere in between (with most of them gravitating toward the opposition).

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04-12-2012, 10:49 AM
  #240
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