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Saints Bounty Thread (NFL vacates all punishment in Bountygate)

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Old
04-05-2012, 11:57 PM
  #376
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Williams is never going to be a coach again. And no network will hire him, unless it's in some podunk town in Northwestern Oklahoma. He should be researching which department at Home Depot suits him best.

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04-06-2012, 01:03 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Justified View Post
According to a former NFL player, the head could mean the QB. That is the lingo that Defensive coordinators use for Quarterbacks.
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Originally Posted by JustGivingEr View Post
The weird part about that metaphor in this case is how he says, "kill Frank Gore's head". If he was referring to the Gore as the "head" of the Niners, wouldn't he have said we want to kill the 49ers head?

The way its worded makes it sound like they were literally targeting Gore's head and weren't just targeting the Gore since he was the "head" of the team.
When he talks about "touching the head before getting off the pile", it's pretty obvious what he means. At minimum, that's talking about doing something extra to Gore in general before getting off the pile...at worst, that's actually doing something else to intentionally inflict an injury after the whistle.

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I would love a 24/7 inside the locker room of a Football team. I hear that audio and I have mixed reactions. One, it sounds like Williams is a total ********* who should never be allowed to coach in the NFL again. On the other hand, what is this is a coaches way of hyping up the team and it happens in a lot of other locker rooms. I mean you hear what players say when they're mic-ed up. There's a lot of talk about "going out on the battlefield" and the "this is tackle football" mentality. I'm not condoning the audio by any means, but I just wonder how "non-normal" talk like this is in the NFL.
Everyone that I've ever talked to says that the microphone on a player changes things, particularly with interactions. Other teammates know who's got the mic on, so they'll gravitate toward that player on the sidelines or between plays.

Inside the locker room, it varies pretty widely.

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Williams hope you like coaching Div 3 or junior high school.
With this type of baggage, I'd be surprised if he got an offer for either of those.

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04-09-2012, 03:07 PM
  #378
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Appeals were denied, but if the three comply with league restrictions during the suspensions the monetary penalties and/or the forfeited 2013 draft pick may be reduced.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/77...oomis-joe-vitt

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04-09-2012, 07:12 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
Appeals were denied, but if the three comply with league restrictions during the suspensions the monetary penalties and/or the forfeited 2013 draft pick may be reduced.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/77...oomis-joe-vitt
They don't deserve any leeway. None.

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04-09-2012, 10:49 PM
  #380
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I honestly just want this to be over with. Of course the NFL will keep it going as long as possible to drum up controversy, and we all know the NFL loves that.

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04-09-2012, 10:55 PM
  #381
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They don't deserve any leeway. None.
Agreed ,, Infact the punishment wasn's strong enough in 1st place

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04-10-2012, 07:52 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Agreed ,, Infact the punishment wasn's strong enough in 1st place
Agreed. Payton shouldn't have the right to hand pick his "successor"; league installs someone with no input from the Saints organization. If it happens to be Parcells, so be it.

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04-10-2012, 09:15 AM
  #383
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http://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/stat...17542540029952
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And now, it's looking more and more like Saints asst HC Joe Vitt is a favorite to become New Orleans' interim HC.

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04-10-2012, 02:06 PM
  #384
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Agreed. Payton shouldn't have the right to hand pick his "successor"; league installs someone with no input from the Saints organization. If it happens to be Parcells, so be it.
That's going too far. If a player is suspended for PEDs, the NFL doesn't come in and tell the team, "This is who you sign/release." That is a team decision, not the league. If you say the NFL can appoint this person and that person, you're going down a slippery slope and eventually the NFLPA gets involved because players get affected and it's a huge mess.

The Saints organization should be able to do what it wants and how it sees fit, provided it does not violate any rules of the NFL. And since the NFL itself gave a date in which the suspension begins for Payton, he has every right to be part of the process up to that date.

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04-11-2012, 07:28 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
They don't deserve any leeway. None.
The other 31 teams got it.


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Originally Posted by pensguy11 View Post
Agreed. Payton shouldn't have the right to hand pick his "successor"; league installs someone with no input from the Saints organization. If it happens to be Parcells, so be it.
Uh, why not? Payton isn't under suspension yet. He has the right to do whatever he wants with the team until he is. The league doesn't have any right to force anyone to run a team. Goodell is already a power-tripper as it is.

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04-11-2012, 01:25 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
The other 31 teams got it.
The other 31 teams set up illegal gambling rings where the goal was to injure someone or end their career?

The individuals involved do not deserve any leeway, that is what I was alluding to.

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04-12-2012, 04:25 PM
  #387
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Vitt officially named the head coach during Payton's suspension. He will take care of preseason stuff, then have his six-week suspension kick in, then return for the final 10 games and playoffs.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/78...payton-absence

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04-12-2012, 07:38 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
The other 31 teams set up illegal gambling rings where the goal was to injure someone or end their career?
Maybe if anyone did a real investigation, we would know for sure. Instead, Goodell sends out a memo saying "no one else better be doing this, but if you are...stop" and look the other way. Like the other two teams where Williams was head coach and ran bounty rings? It would certainly look bad if/when he got/gets Mitchell-Reported.


How good are the chances that the Gregg Williams audio was leaked so that Goodell lost control of the narrative?

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04-13-2012, 12:06 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Maybe if anyone did a real investigation, we would know for sure. Instead, Goodell sends out a memo saying "no one else better be doing this, but if you are...stop" and look the other way. Like the other two teams where Williams was head coach and ran bounty rings? It would certainly look bad if/when he got/gets Mitchell-Reported.


How good are the chances that the Gregg Williams audio was leaked so that Goodell lost control of the narrative?
I don't know how he would get enough information to punish another franchise from prior years ago. Unless they have audio and photographic proof, all they would have is hearsay.

That Williams audio was strategically released and makes Goddell's decision look good, but the Saints brass and players who participated in this have no one to blame but themselves. I would have liked to have seen harsher punishments on the individuals and not the loss of the draft picks, but that's just me.

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04-13-2012, 06:57 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
I don't know how he would get enough information to punish another franchise from prior years ago. Unless they have audio and photographic proof, all they would have is hearsay.
Maybe if he would do an investigation instead of covering for the other teams, we would know. As I've said, it was basically confirmed that Williams did this with two other teams, and Tony Dungy (who the Goodell respects greatly) accused another, and nothing happened. Numerous former players have come out since then and said it's been going on, and nothing happened.

Which is worse, the Saints covering up their own bounty, or one guy covering up 31 other ones?

The Saints aren't really being penalized for lying about it, they're being penalized because it got out that they did it. Because if it gets out to the mainstream public that everyone is doing it, it's going to bring Goodell down. He better hope Congress doesn't find a way into this.


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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
That Williams audio was strategically released and makes Goddell's decision look good, but the Saints brass and players who participated in this have no one to blame but themselves. I would have liked to have seen harsher punishments on the individuals and not the loss of the draft picks, but that's just me.
They haven't suspended any players yet, which can still happen. For everyone else, not sure what else they could do besides suspend the ring leader basically forever and the head coach for an entire season.

It might have made Goodell's decision look good, what he doesn't want is people releasing audio and going rogue to the media.

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04-13-2012, 07:48 AM
  #391
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As I've said, it was basically confirmed that Williams did this with two other teams, and Tony Dungy (who the Goodell respects greatly) accused another, and nothing happened.
Why would anything happen to those teams? Williams worked for the Titans in the late 90's they've got a completely new regime since Williams was there. The GM who hired him in Buffalo is gone. There's a new head coach and GM in Washington from when he was there. Jacksonville has a new owner, GM, and head coach. What punishment can Joe Gibbs get when he's not even in the league anymore?

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04-13-2012, 12:15 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Maybe if he would do an investigation instead of covering for the other teams, we would know. As I've said, it was basically confirmed that Williams did this with two other teams, and Tony Dungy (who the Goodell respects greatly) accused another, and nothing happened. Numerous former players have come out since then and said it's been going on, and nothing happened.

Which is worse, the Saints covering up their own bounty, or one guy covering up 31 other ones?

The Saints aren't really being penalized for lying about it, they're being penalized because it got out that they did it. Because if it gets out to the mainstream public that everyone is doing it, it's going to bring Goodell down. He better hope Congress doesn't find a way into this.




They haven't suspended any players yet, which can still happen. For everyone else, not sure what else they could do besides suspend the ring leader basically forever and the head coach for an entire season.

It might have made Goodell's decision look good, what he doesn't want is people releasing audio and going rogue to the media.
Like hockeyfan said, if Williams did do it with prior teams (which is safe to say yes), those franchises have changed so much that you can't really punish the individuals. The players involved are retired and the coaches, and even some of the owners, are long gone. They could perhaps fine those franchises, but I'm not sure if there is a statue of limitations involved or not.

I wouldn't say he covered up for the other 31 teams, either. The Saints made it obvious and got caught. The part that bothers fans like me the most is that Payton and the GM knew about it and were instructed by the owner to stop it, yet they just stood by and let it happen. Williams is rightfully permabanned, but I hope Payton learns from this and becomes a better man for it. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance. Hopefully shortly this whole thing will be over now and everyone can move on.

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04-13-2012, 07:25 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
Like hockeyfan said, if Williams did do it with prior teams (which is safe to say yes), those franchises have changed so much that you can't really punish the individuals. The players involved are retired and the coaches, and even some of the owners, are long gone. They could perhaps fine those franchises, but I'm not sure if there is a statue of limitations involved or not.
It's not a court of law. Statue of Limitations shouldn't exist.

The Redskins and Cowboys got cap penalties for things they did two years (off-seasons) ago. Under a different collective bargaining agreement in an uncapped year. How far back is too far?

The same owner owns the Redskins and Bills from when Williams was employed. He was also only one year removed from the Redskins when he joined the Saints.

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I wouldn't say he covered up for the other 31 teams, either. The Saints made it obvious and got caught. The part that bothers fans like me the most is that Payton and the GM knew about it and were instructed by the owner to stop it, yet they just stood by and let it happen. Williams is rightfully permabanned, but I hope Payton learns from this and becomes a better man for it. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance. Hopefully shortly this whole thing will be over now and everyone can move on.
They were obvious because someone squealed. They knew they were doing it, and didn't do anything about it then.

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Why would anything happen to those teams? Williams worked for the Titans in the late 90's they've got a completely new regime since Williams was there. The GM who hired him in Buffalo is gone. There's a new head coach and GM in Washington from when he was there. Jacksonville has a new owner, GM, and head coach. What punishment can Joe Gibbs get when he's not even in the league anymore?
Dungy's accusations were after Gregg Williams left.

But let's say Sean Payton and all the coaches retire tomorrow, along with Loomis. They get all their fines and draft picks back?

As I mentioned with the Cowboys, they got penalized for something that happened under a different head coach.


Last edited by GKJ: 04-13-2012 at 07:31 PM.
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04-13-2012, 09:58 PM
  #394
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Dungy's accusations were after Gregg Williams left.
If he doesn't have any proof then that's meaningless, the NFL had proof the Saints were doing it. If his accusations aren't about the current Redskins team(under Shanahan and Allen) it's even more meaningless.

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But let's say Sean Payton and all the coaches retire tomorrow, along with Loomis. They get all their fines and draft picks back?
No the penalty is already in place. That's a terrible hypothetical.

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As I mentioned with the Cowboys, they got penalized for something that happened under a different head coach.
Jerry Jones is essentially the GM in Dallas and his responsibility is structuring contracts. He also received a warning(just like the Saints did) to not try to circumvent the cap. He's still in power so he's going to get penalized for what he did. A head coach has input in who a team keeps, cuts, acquires, etc...but he doesn't structure the contracts. It's apples and oranges.

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04-14-2012, 08:07 AM
  #395
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If he doesn't have any proof then that's meaningless, the NFL had proof the Saints were doing it. If his accusations aren't about the current Redskins team(under Shanahan and Allen) it's even more meaningless.
Someone had to make an accusation for the league to investigate the Saints to start with. This isn't a court of law.


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No the penalty is already in place. That's a terrible hypothetical.
Ok, so if Sean Payton, etc. retired the day after the Super Bowl, the Saints get to walk away because everyone left the organization?


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Jerry Jones is essentially the GM in Dallas and his responsibility is structuring contracts. He also received a warning(just like the Saints did) to not try to circumvent the cap. He's still in power so he's going to get penalized for what he did. A head coach has input in who a team keeps, cuts, acquires, etc...but he doesn't structure the contracts. It's apples and oranges.
He circumvented the salary cap in a year where it didn't exist. That was Roger Goodell punishing a team because, I don't know, not enough players have gotten into trouble in the off-season, so he got bored.

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04-14-2012, 05:37 PM
  #396
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Someone had to make an accusation for the league to investigate the Saints to start with. This isn't a court of law.
And with that accusation they had evidence to back it up. It wasn't just someone speculating. The NFL needed some hard proof to go on, if not it's just a witch hunt.

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Ok, so if Sean Payton, etc. retired the day after the Super Bowl, the Saints get to walk away because everyone left the organization?
Considering the investigation was going on...no. Carroll left when USC was being investigated, they were still hit hard. Same with Tressel and OSU. Obviously it's NCAA and NFL but the point remains. Just because someone leaves during an investigation doesn't mean everyone gets off without penalty.

What's so hard to understand here? None of the other organizations that Williams worked for were told to stop and then the franchise continued to do it. The Saints were found guilty and it was learned he did it with other franchises. It'd be ridiculous to punish those franchises well after the fact that it happened when the people in power aren't there anymore. Would it make any sense to punish the Saints today if it was learned that Ditka tampered with a free agent over a decade ago?

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04-14-2012, 11:23 PM
  #397
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And with that accusation they had evidence to back it up. It wasn't just someone speculating. The NFL needed some hard proof to go on, if not it's just a witch hunt.
If this is as bad as the NFL is...whatever they're trying to do with it, they would investigate when a respected guy like Dungy makes such a supposedly serious accusation. It's not a court of law, so difference can be taken depending on who the source is. Not like we're talking about Eklund's sources here.


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Considering the investigation was going on...no. Carroll left when USC was being investigated, they were still hit hard. Same with Tressel and OSU. Obviously it's NCAA and NFL but the point remains. Just because someone leaves during an investigation doesn't mean everyone gets off without penalty.

What's so hard to understand here? None of the other organizations that Williams worked for were told to stop and then the franchise continued to do it. The Saints were found guilty and it was learned he did it with other franchises. It'd be ridiculous to punish those franchises well after the fact that it happened when the people in power aren't there anymore. Would it make any sense to punish the Saints today if it was learned that Ditka tampered with a free agent over a decade ago?
We haven't established a criteria for statue of limitations. At the very least, it should be the genesis of a full-scale investigation. How are we sure other teams were told to stop, didn't, and just haven't gotten caught? Gregg Williams has been around a long time, I'm sure there's a lot of coaches floating around who worked under him. That doesn't mean they have their own bounty programs, but it doesn't mean they don't either.

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04-16-2012, 01:00 PM
  #398
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I'll admit that I haven't been following football as much as I owuld have liked with hockey still going on and it is the playoffs.

But I do have to ask something.

What impact does this bounty mess have on Drew Brees trying to get a deal done to stay with the Saints or is that a seperate matter?

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04-17-2012, 04:37 PM
  #399
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I didn't see this posted yet here.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/78...ct-source-says

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Under the terms of his season-long suspension for his role in New Orleans' bounty program, coach Sean Payton is not allowed to have any contact with the Saints organization or anyone around the NFL, and if he does, must report it to league executive Ray Anderson, a source familiar with the suspension tells ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.

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04-23-2012, 02:37 PM
  #400
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More news from the Saints, although I question why it took basically 10 years for this one to come to light. Is there truth to it? Or just trying to pile on at this point?

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...hes-home-games

Quote:
NEW ORLEANS -- The U.S. Attorney's Office in the Eastern District of Louisiana was told Friday that New Orleans Saints general manager Mickey Loomis had an electronic device in his Superdome suite that had been secretly re-wired to enable him to eavesdrop on visiting coaching staffs for nearly three NFL seasons, "Outside the Lines" has learned.

Sources familiar with Saints game-day operations told "Outside the Lines" that Loomis, who faces an eight-game suspension from the NFL for his role in the recent bounty scandal, had the ability to secretly listen for most of the 2002 season, his first as general manager of the Saints, and all of the 2003 and 2004 seasons. The sources spoke with "Outside the Lines" under the condition of anonymity because of fear of reprisals from members of the Saints organization.

Jim Letten, the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Louisiana, acknowledged being told of the allegations Friday and has briefed the FBI in New Orleans about Loomis' alleged activity, according to sources. If proven, the allegations could be both a violation of NFL rules and potentially a federal crime, according to legal sources. The federal Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA) of 1986 prohibits any person from intercepting communications from another person using an electronic or mechanical device.

"I can say that we were just made aware of that on Friday, at least of these allegations," Letten said. "Anything beyond that I'm afraid I'm not at liberty to comment."

Greg Bensel, Saints vice president of communications, said Monday afternoon on behalf of the Saints and Loomis: "This is 1,000 percent false. This is 1,000 percent inaccurate."

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the league was unaware of the allegations.

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