I don't "preach patience" - I'm sick of my team getting dogged....but the man recognized that the team needed to be built from the ground upward, to which I still agree to this day even after all the losing seasons. Pretty soon definitive frontrunners are going to establish themselves ahead of the pack in the prospect pool, luckily once they're a little more mature and ready for NHL action.
I too used to believe that. Now I believe it was an unholy combination of it being the only thing left to do, so not exactly a plan of genius since we literally had nothing left in the prospect bin to trade, and Wang seeing an uncertain future and wanting to plan for a possible sell, meaning lots of high end picks and prospects and young studs with little in the way of veteran overhead, making this an attractive sell to anyone, anywhere.
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It looks to me that though Snow is NOT Bill Torrey, he's trying to do it the same way, and certain issues stemming from ownership's unwillingness to spend keep putting the kibosh on it.
But he isn't, and the article you quote gets it fundamentally wrong. The team acquired players their first year through an expansion draft, and Torrey later added to it. They started with some decent vets like Westfall, Crisp, Stewart, & Desjardins and added to them over a few years like J. Potvin, Drouin, & Parise. Those guys were heads and tails better in general than what Snow has packed around our youth. On top of that Westfall was the oldest, weighing in at '34 in 75, whereas Snow adds guys who are collecting social security and have at least one wooden appendage. I kid a little, but I know you know what I mean. I would stay away from going anywhere near a Torrey/Snow comparison. It just doesn't work, on any level.
Torrey would also refrain from cutting reporters off from the team as it is unprofessional, and anyone who ever spent time talking to the man would never caste that kind of light on him. Oh, I could go on, but why bother.
Then there is the entirely bizarre, and at this point, scary attraction to all things connected to New England/Boston. I laugh openly about Montreal severely limiting it's options through focusing on Francophones, on the ice and behind the bench. Well, limiting your staff and some player decisions in the same way to some other geographical reference is just as stupid. I used to think it was happenstance, mixed with some familiarity of contacts, but the more it happens the more I get concerned he is simply a moron with very few friends in the business forcing him to hire from a very small resource.
Last edited by A Pointed Stick: 04-12-2012 at 06:17 PM.
In the end the record speaks for it self, so if some one wants Garth fired I won't argue, but I just wouldn't think it would really change things in the end.
I don't disagree - I'd just rather place the blame where I think it truly belongs. I know I kick dirt at the line between pro- and anti- in these discussions, but I'd rather see both gone since even as I don't entirely "trust" Snow, I trust Wang exponentially less.
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick
I too used to believe that. Now I believe it was an unholy combination of it being the only thing left to do, so not exactly a plan of genius since we literally had nothing left in the prospect bin to trade, and Wang seeing an uncertain future and wanting to plan for a possible sell, meaning lots of high end picks and prospects and young studs with little in the way of veteran overhead, making this an attractive sell to anyone, anywhere.
That's extremely plausible, and possibly a scenario I've overlooked. It does point to the chance that Snow is indeed entirely Wang's puppet, and this had been the plan dating back to when Neil Smith was canned. I've long tried to avoid the assumption that Wang's on some crazy conspiracy to rid himself of the team as quickly as possible come 2015, but unfortunately we still have a little ways to go if that's the case. Unfortunately, as I said above - I don't trust Wang and haven't for the better part of the last 7 years.
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But he isn't, and the article you quote gets it fundamentally wrong. The team acquired players their first year through an expansion draft, and Torrey later added to it. They started with some decent vets like Westfall, Crisp, Stewart, & Desjardins and added to them over a few years like J. Potvin, Drouin, & Parise. Those guys were heads and tails better in general than what Snow has packed around our youth. On top of that Westfall was the oldest, weighing in at '34 in 75, whereas Snow adds guys who are collecting social security and have at least one wooden appendage. I kid a little, but I know you know what I mean. I would stay away from going anywhere near a Torrey/Snow comparison. It just doesn't work, on any level.
Firstly - I think we need to set Wikipedia straight.
Oh, if people from Anonymous were Islander fans, my laptop would probably have already exploded if a flat comparison was my intention. ....luckily it wasn't.....just so it's out there, and no one buys a plane ticket to Austin to summarily assault me for the crime of blasphemy.
I don't believe walling oneself off of the trade world is a good tactic for building a good team, admittedly. The point I made melts like an ice cube once the assumption that the Isles' don't have enough talent in the lower leagues to make a good deal for NHL-level talent fizzles. Every season different players go on hot streaks at the least impactful times (KO & Bailey are the big ones this year), and there are enough holes to where I find it easy to come to the conclusion that one or two players are going to change the culture here. Hell, even John Tavares isn't capable of that just yet.
It's a painfully long and brutally Darwinian process that I don't always agree with, but I can see some logic behind letting natural leaders revealing themselves and the players who can thrive & persevere rising to the top....although it is kind of like watching rioters rushing a fence at times - much of the 1st wave gets trampled by the 5 behind it.
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Then there is the entirely bizarre, and at this point, scary attraction to all things connected to New England/Boston. I laugh openly about Montreal severely limiting it's options through focusing on Francophones, on the ice and behind the bench. Well, limiting your staff and some player decisions in the same way to some other geographical reference is just as stupid. I used to think it was happenstance, mixed with some familiarity of contacts, but the more it happens the more I get concerned he is simply a moron with very few friends in the business forcing him to hire from a very small resource.
I see that partly and I don't like it either, but it's hard for me to gauge how much he's still making that his modus operandi when we're starting to see more Swedes and a few Russians drafted. I don't think it's wise for one to limit themselves geographically, but I will openly admit that there's a bit more ground for a slight bias, unless you're the Rangers, Red Wings, Penguins, Capitals, etc. Teams such as the NYI & Columbus haven't always had the best luck with European players, so the unfortunate backlash shows itself as focusing scouting to North America and Central/Northern Europe rather than going too far east in the hopes that you draw young players, especially New Yorkers & New Englanders, and can build a stronger loyalty/affinity for a NY/NE team. Basically, though I don't entirely like it, I can understand where the train of thought originates from - as long as the talent in question winds up not screwing us over and can play comparatively well, even if there are stylistic differences.
Thanks for keeping a conversation about questioning the regime totally civil and very well-informed.
I don't disagree - I'd just rather place the blame where I think it truly belongs. I know I kick dirt at the line between pro- and anti- in these discussions, but I'd rather see both gone since even as I don't entirely "trust" Snow, I trust Wang exponentially less.
Well didn't I start out the paragraph you just quoted me from by saying "I've always placed most all the blame here on Wang."
I know where the blame belongs. That's why I also said I'm not even calling for Garth to get fired. I'm just simply saying at this point it's getting hard to keep making crediable reasons as to why he shouldn't be fired to those calling for his head.
In the entry I wrote before that I stated "Nothings going to change as long as Wang owns the team(at least untill we have something figured out for 2015, if he still owns them.)"
I think we kinda have the same fundimental belief, at this point your not gonna get any where with Wang still at the head. I've just given up defending Snow.
If the Islanders had a real owner, I do not think Garth Snow would look as bad. The fact is the young players are signing here long term and veterans like Nabokov want to stay here. I am not talking about guys like Steve Staios or Milan Jurcina who would have no other place to play if not for the Islanders. Legitimate players want to play here and Garth Snow clearly knows how to convey to players what his vision is for the club. The problem is it is impossible to execute with Wang thinking he is god's gift to hockey
So, by you saying this you really mean, "people wouldn't mistakenly perceive Garth Snow as a bad GM if we had a good owner?" Because knowing that, I DON'T think he looks bad. I think it makes the owner look bad, not him. Hoping this helps wake some of the people up and get their heads out of the sand...
BUT, Snow is a bad GM, regardless of Wang's influence.
The Islanders are in the lottery every year - they suck, period. The reasons WHY are numerous and SNOW SPECIFICALLY is to blame for the bulk of it.
It's a poorly constructed team. Too many flawed players.
Nashville, Phoenix, St. Louis, Colorado - teams with similar payrolls, they have FAR BETTER teams.
Some fans love to tell the positive stories of Moulson's 30goals, Parenteau's points - yet we look past the poor defensive coverage, lack of speed and physical play and most importantly, the LOSS COLUMN.
Watching Nashville play makes me sad. They are so impressive and they have players that are the complete opposite of the team Snow's assembled. Just one example...there are more.
LMAO! There are teams with far higher payrolls that are worse. You need to address both sides, one side does not make an argument!
It is Wang but Snow is the puppet. If Snow stood up and wasn't afraid to lose his job, I would have no issue with Snow. Snow likes being a puppet so he shares the blame as well.
Capuano is still our coach and our next coach will be a joke as well.
Likes being a puppet or likes being employed??? Seriously, what planet are you from?
A good GM will spend whatever money he has wisely.
Mottau. $5M Rolston. Devs fans THANKED US!
Many more deals. He had some solid low risk gambles like Moulson and Parenteau (much of the Parenteau thing was pure luck, much of Moulson was JT) and Streit was a coup. But.....that does not erase our other "oopsies" and the bad decisions in letting key guys go only to be replaced with worse.
And that happens every season, does it not?
Let's not laud mediocrity. There are better GM's out there. Some, apparently, don't want better, they want to save face and see Snow be heralded?
A good GM will spend whatever money he has wisely.
Mottau. $5M Rolston. Devs fans THANKED US!
Many more deals. He had some solid low risk gambles like Moulson and Parenteau (much of the Parenteau thing was pure luck, much of Moulson was JT) and Streit was a coup. But.....that does not erase our other "oopsies" and the bad decisions in letting key guys go only to be replaced with worse.
And that happens every season, does it not?
Let's not laud mediocrity. There are better GM's out there. Some, apparently, don't want better, they want to save face and see Snow be heralded?
agreed 100% about spending wisely. if Snow had no other options (meaning that no 'good' players would sign on the Isle), is spending $5m on Rolston ok? again, do you know that Snow could have had a 'good' player, but chose Rolston? you speak as though you do, but i'm not seeing much factual information. and, we turned a UFA signing into a few prospects. maybe not the best prospects, but more than we had before.
no one i saw on this board is lauding mediocrity. no one here said that Snow is the best. i KNOW for a fact that there are worse. the replies that defend snow, are in response to those who choose to say things like, "he is horrible", or, "he is the worst GM". no lauding... no heralding... no accepting mediocrity... as you have unfoundedly accused us of.
it seems that 'some' people love to piss on their own cornflakes, point an accusing finger at random shadows, and then, as they settle into a state of bliss, declare themselves to be enlightened.
Feel bad for Isles fans, you guys deserve better. As an outsider though the problem is not entirely Snow IMO its probably 75 pct Wang 25 pct Snow. There's not much Snow can do with such a limited payroll.
A good GM will spend whatever money he has wisely.
Mottau. $5M Rolston. Devs fans THANKED US!
Many more deals. He had some solid low risk gambles like Moulson and Parenteau (much of the Parenteau thing was pure luck, much of Moulson was JT) and Streit was a coup. But.....that does not erase our other "oopsies" and the bad decisions in letting key guys go only to be replaced with worse.
And that happens every season, does it not?
Let's not laud mediocrity. There are better GM's out there. Some, apparently, don't want better, they want to save face and see Snow be heralded?
This is one thing I've had trouble with all year. We traded $4M of contract in Hunter for $5M in contract for Rolston. It gave us a bump towardss the floor for this year but overall there wasnt much extra cash spent. If we never delt Hunter or just stuck him in the minors or bought him out Wang still would havbe had to pay $4M to him whether he was against the cap or not. Could they have found a better deal? Yeah, they probably should have at least been tossed a pick for helping a division opponent. But if they never delt for Rolston and were still on the books for Hunters $4M they wouldnt have done any thing probably except give out another league minimum salary. I think in Garths mid he ws taking a chance on Rolston for $1M, cause thats all that was spent over Hunters salary.
Don't get me wrong, that obviously didn't work. Rolston showed up, played like he didn't care and was out of shape by thr time he got to Boston. But people act or talk like Garth hjad $5M extra to spend and gave Rolston a 1 year $5M deal though, and that's not how it happened.
LMAO! There are teams with far higher payrolls that are worse. You need to address both sides, one side does not make an argument!
Yes, we have actually been one of those teams. If you want to say that Snow's work compares favorably to Jay Feaster (Calgary GM - franchise that gets nearly the least for the money, fine). But don't complain when respected posters like Redbull (LMAO, indeed) talk about low standards.
The truth is that Snow showed absolutely zero creativity in filling out our defense. Redbull, and other long time Islanders fans with a brain have been complaining about this for years. Things have improved. It used to be the case that he showed zero creativity in filling out our defense *and* our goaltending. At least Snow learns... slowly. Seriously. Our D got significantly worse this year, mostly because we carried 3 D-men whose minutes had to be limited because they were, simply put, liabilities. And then that doesn't consider that MacDonald and Streit need a physical presence on their opposite side, and there's only one Travis Hamonic.
I'd like to know that Snow really couldn't have done *anything* on the trade front to bring some better bottom 3 options. Could he have gotten anything for Blake Comeau +, who should've been traded last year (BTW, this is not in hindsight, I had this view last year). It's a fair criticism because doing that is Snow's job. It's crazy to think such criticism isn't reasonable.
Yes, we have actually been one of those teams. If you want to say that Snow's work compares favorably to Jay Feaster (Calgary GM - franchise that gets nearly the least for the money, fine). But don't complain when respected posters like Redbull (LMAO, indeed) talk about low standards.
The truth is that Snow showed absolutely zero creativity in filling out our defense. Redbull, and other long time Islanders fans with a brain have been complaining about this for years. Things have improved. It used to be the case that he showed zero creativity in filling out our defense *and* our goaltending. At least Snow learns... slowly. Seriously. Our D got significantly worse this year, mostly because we carried 3 D-men whose minutes had to be limited because they were, simply put, liabilities. And then that doesn't consider that MacDonald and Streit need a physical presence on their opposite side, and there's only one Travis Hamonic.
I'd like to know that Snow really couldn't have done *anything* on the trade front to bring some better bottom 3 options. Could he have gotten anything for Blake Comeau +, who should've been traded last year (BTW, this is not in hindsight, I had this view last year). It's a fair criticism because doing that is Snow's job. It's crazy to think such criticism isn't reasonable.
Cheers,
Dan-o
I have two big gripes with Snow and the lack of trades is one of them. He really should've done more to upgrade the defense and hasn't made a real hockey trade since the Smyth trade, which is astonshing!
The other is how media shy Snow is. Now he doesn't have to be Brian Burke or Mike Milbury but I iwsh he'd been more talkative and given us more insights into how he views the team and its performances.
LMAO! There are teams with far higher payrolls that are worse. You need to address both sides, one side does not make an argument!
No, money alone doesn't solve all of the issues obviously...the money has to be managed properly. But money is essential to at least have a chance to compete. I'm not even talking about spending to the ceiling...just at least legitimately spending to the floor. The Isles have enough problems recruiting people to play here and being taken seriously by players around the league. They're just handicapping themselves even further by refusing to spend real money and instead using accounting tricks to fudge their way to the floor. At least we'd find out for sure if Snow is worth anything as a GM if he had the money to spend and the authority to use it as he sees fit.
I have two big gripes with Snow and the lack of trades is one of them. He really should've done more to upgrade the defense and hasn't made a real hockey trade since the Smyth trade, which is astonshing!
The other is how media shy Snow is. Now he doesn't have to be Brian Burke or Mike Milbury but I iwsh he'd been more talkative and given us more insights into how he views the team and its performances.
Who cares? The GM of the Blue Jays doesn't talk much and when he does he says absolutely nothing. But he's going about building his team. I don't need a GM that talks. I don't think this really matters. I want GMs focused on their team, not on talking to media.
This is one thing I've had trouble with all year. We traded $4M of contract in Hunter for $5M in contract for Rolston. It gave us a bump towardss the floor for this year but overall there wasnt much extra cash spent. If we never delt Hunter or just stuck him in the minors or bought him out Wang still would havbe had to pay $4M to him whether he was against the cap or not. Could they have found a better deal? Yeah, they probably should have at least been tossed a pick for helping a division opponent. But if they never delt for Rolston and were still on the books for Hunters $4M they wouldnt have done any thing probably except give out another league minimum salary. I think in Garths mid he ws taking a chance on Rolston for $1M, cause thats all that was spent over Hunters salary.
Don't get me wrong, that obviously didn't work. Rolston showed up, played like he didn't care and was out of shape by thr time he got to Boston. But people act or talk like Garth hjad $5M extra to spend and gave Rolston a 1 year $5M deal though, and that's not how it happened.
You DO know that Hunter's salary (~$2M) was spread over two years, not one, so Snow would have had $3M more to spend this year with Hunter not dealt. Rolston meant a worse player ate $3M more money.
BTW, could they have, theoretically, dealt Hunter and Comeau for a $4-5M top line defenseman? Same money spent this year if we stop and think about it.
You DO know that Hunter's salary (~$2M) was spread over two years, not one, so Snow would have had $3M more to spend this year with Hunter not dealt. Rolston meant a worse player ate $3M more money.
BTW, could they have, theoretically, dealt Hunter and Comeau for a $4-5M top line defenseman? Same money spent this year if we stop and think about it.
He'd have to be from New England, though.
thoeretically yes, but i think realistically, Comeau and Hunter would not have brought what was needed to be competitive last year. i may be wrong, but i did not think that they had much value. i was happy that Garth just rid the team of them... if we could've put Hunter's heart and head onto Comeau's body, that would be a different story.
i stated earlier that i would give Garth 3 more years before i would pass judgement on him. i was being generous. i think this year is the telling one. he has to start showing more, and soon, to keep me as a believer.
if i were a TO fan, i would expect Burke to fill the hole in net very soon. there's no reason for him not to. maybe he's just having a hard time finding a 'truculent' goalie... he should be making a play for Schneider, Harding, Halak, etc... this off-season.
You DO know that Hunter's salary (~$2M) was spread over two years, not one, so Snow would have had $3M more to spend this year with Hunter not dealt. Rolston meant a worse player ate $3M more money.
BTW, could they have, theoretically, dealt Hunter and Comeau for a $4-5M top line defenseman? Same money spent this year if we stop and think about it.
He'd have to be from New England, though.
You're assuming the Islanders could actually have gotten a top line D-man for Comeau and Hunter. They'd have been hard-pressed to get a top 4 defenseman for those two.
You're assuming the Islanders could actually have gotten a top line D-man for Comeau and Hunter. They'd have been hard-pressed to get a top 4 defenseman for those two.
Totally agree. There is no way in hell Comeau + Hunter got you a top-4 D. Top-4 D are hard to get in trades because they're hard to get. Period. And people don' give them away for Comeau + Hunter...
You DO know that Hunter's salary (~$2M) was spread over two years, not one, so Snow would have had $3M more to spend this year with Hunter not dealt. Rolston meant a worse player ate $3M more money.
BTW, could they have, theoretically, dealt Hunter and Comeau for a $4-5M top line defenseman? Same money spent this year if we stop and think about it.
He'd have to be from New England, though.
Well for one you're assuming that 2 players who were both waived this year would have fetched you a top line Dman? You know that's just not true. You come of as a very intelligent poster, so I know you're just saying that to help your point.
Also, you do realize that both Hunter and Rolston's contracts are gone now next year, which means they'll be forced to spend more this year because Hunters $2M is gone and not helping reach the cap, so it goes both ways there. Going into this season they'll have to spend to make up for that money thats gone. I always looked at it as Garth taking a gamble, and losing, on adding a player for in essence $1M while dumping usless cap space for next season, which we should consider a good thing, cause it will make us put that $2M in something other then a shot Hunter. Could it be invested in some other shot player? Well yeah, that's possibile, but that's not my point and it hasn't happened yet.
Totally agree. There is no way in hell Comeau + Hunter got you a top-4 D. Top-4 D are hard to get in trades because they're hard to get. Period. And people don' give them away for Comeau + Hunter...
Of course those 2 guys do not get you a top 4 dman. The amount of money due to them is what OlTime was saying I think. Hunter had negative trade value but Comeau definitely had some type of value going into the season.
Comeau was a 24 goal guy on an upward projection making 2.5 million. The Isles could have got something of value. It was terrible asset management by Snow, even when we waived him it was pointless at the time. No one was out playing him or taking the roster away from him despite his poor play. Just another classic what the hell type of move by Snow, very similar to giving Wiz away for peanuts. I know both moves were $$ dumps but we got zero value back
....luckily it wasn't.....just so it's out there, and no one buys a plane ticket to Austin to summarily assault me for the crime of blasphemy.
