i just don't understand how michalek and martin are so terrible this year.
these guys were borderline number 1 d-men on playoff teams, before they came here. they were considered a fairly significant upgrade on scuderi/gill.
now we are yearning for that old pair.
so strange.
For some reason, there always seems to be this expectation that guys will improve drastically playing on the Pens. In the case of the Martin signing in particular, I think management fell victim to those same expectations. They sign a guy that was a "solid" dman in NJ and thrust him into our lineup as a main cog in the defense thinking that he'd flourish with our high end talent. It hasn't happened. He doesn't have enough offensive ability to be a pure offensive weapon on this team and he's not physical enough to be a shutdown guy. So he's in no man's land right now.
Michalek, on the other hand, I think is just having an off year and will rebound at some point. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he's been dealing with a nagging injury actually. But I guess I'm just being an optimist here.
I live in Dallas. I've watched him since his rookie year and as his game collapsed under Marc Crawford. And, I'm about to utter words that would make anyone here cringe: I MISS MATT NISKANEN.
For some reason, there always seems to be this expectation that guys will improve drastically playing on the Pens. In the case of the Martin signing in particular, I think management fell victim to those same expectations. They sign a guy that was a "solid" dman in NJ and thrust him into our lineup as a main cog in the defense thinking that he'd flourish with our high end talent. It hasn't happened. He doesn't have enough offensive ability to be a pure offensive weapon on this team and he's not physical enough to be a shutdown guy. So he's in no man's land right now.
Michalek, on the other hand, I think is just having an off year and will rebound at some point. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he's been dealing with a nagging injury actually. But I guess I'm just being an optimist here.
I think in Martin's case it's first a lack of appreciation for the ways in which the NJ trap and the forwards collapsing in their own zone insulated Martin (and his defensive weaknesses).
Michalek may or may not be a similar case. He's been with Martin and Orpik all year and looked his best those few moments with Niskanen. So, I suppose one could say the jury is still out there if he's the main part of the problem or a victim of it.
1. Fact: Marti-soft played like a ****ing lady retrieving the puck. It was a HOME game. It was the FIRST game of the STANLEY CUP PLAYOFFS. He makes 5 mil/year.
2. Fact: Micha-soft played a horrible game too
3. Fact: Orpik was average until he pulled his "Bone-headed penalty to give the team a PP Goal"
It sucks that on the FIRST HOME game that 75% of our Top 4 dropped a big turd.
I'll have a much better feel for how the series goes after tomorrow.
I'm a little concerned because this is exactly how the team played vs. Montreal. We kept saying they will pull their heads out of their @ss and they never did.
1 Period of Great Play and 2 Periods of Spring Break? Completely nonfunctional PP? Dropping +2 goal leads regularly (i'm including some of those breakdowns in our last few games) Does it remind you a little of last year Playoffs?
I live in Dallas. I've watched him since his rookie year and as his game collapsed under Marc Crawford. And, I'm about to utter words that would make anyone here cringe: I MISS MATT NISKANEN.
Somehow while Martin and Michalek's games have dropped significantly this season, Niskanen has flourished (I use that term somewhat loosely).
Michalek wasn't one of the two biggest problems on defense last night, so, in this regard, it was progress I suppose . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG
I agree. I have no idea what they did this past offseason, but they have not been the same guys we watched last season...especially Michalek.
Offensively with Martin, I've got no clue. As for Michalek, I wonder if the greater emphasis on those long stretch passes that you need a D-Man to make quickly and accurately is part of the issue in his offensive game. He's a guy who always made a nice first pass in Phoenix, but that was shorter stuff, more close puck support.
As for their defensive play, I think with Martin it's a case of a NJ system (trap, forwards collapse in zone) that emphasized his strengths and inoculated in good measure against weaknesses like his physical game. In a lot of ways, one could argue that the Pens D system works in the opposite way. As for Michalek, I've got no clue, especially after last year's playoffs.
Michalek wasn't one of the two biggest problems on defense last night, so, in this regard, it was progress I suppose . . .
Offensively with Martin, I've got no clue. As for Michalek, I wonder if the greater emphasis on those long stretch passes that you need a D-Man to make quickly and accurately is part of the issue in his offensive game. He's a guy who always made a nice first pass in Phoenix, but that was shorter stuff, more close puck support.
As for their defensive play, I think with Martin it's a case of a NJ system (trap, forwards collapse in zone) that emphasized his strengths and inoculated in good measure against weaknesses like his physical game. In a lot of ways, one could argue that the Pens D system works in the opposite way. As for Michalek, I've got no clue, especially after last year's playoffs.
People can bring up what both did for their old teams. That's all well and good, and some may even be valid, but I watched those two play shutdown hockey last season on the Penguins, in this system. You can't just look over that.
Regarding Michalek's passing, last season that guy made some of the best stretch passes I have seen. I'm talking stretch passes that put Whitney and Gonchar to shame. That guy also has a fantastic shot when he wants to use it. I thoroughly expected him to be in the 30 point range this season, and he wasn't even close.
His clearing attempts have been a complete bugaboo for me. Last game just hit that home, IMO. A lot of those failed clearing attempts are coming off of his stick. It's like he's using a wet noodle. Both he and Martin are also getting beat wide, and then playing way off guys down low. They aren't even stick checking guys. They are just skating beside them.
I forever give the benefit of the doubt to players because I think people think what they do is a lot easier than what it is, and are WAY too quick to criticize. Martin is getting to inexcusable levels of bad. Michalek is getting there too. Our two most expensive bluelines are supposed to make the unit as a whole better, and they just haven't been - especially Martin. I don't think this regular season, Martin was as bad as some believed. He was bad for a stretch in the beginning, really turned it around, and then reverted back.
I'm also not so sure it's completely on the players. I think there's enough tape on our breakout now. I think team's know how to counter it. Rather than pressuring us where the defensemen would quickly move it to one another and then get our forwards with speed the other way, you're seeing teams sending 1 guy, and then they have 3 standing across our blueline waiting to pick off stretch passes.
I don't have answers. I just know that something has to change in regards to our defense, and this team has to show more character in killing teams off. The team was like Jekyll and Hyde last night. The same team didn't play the last 40 that played the first 20.
Didn't mean to rant, but that's my opinion on the issue.
People can bring up what both did for their old teams. That's all well and good, and some may even be valid, but I watched those two play shutdown hockey last season on the Penguins, in this system. You can't just look over that.
Regarding Michalek's passing, last season that guy made some of the best stretch passes I have seen. I'm talking stretch passes that put Whitney and Gonchar to shame. That guy also has a fantastic shot when he wants to use it. I thoroughly expected him to be in the 30 point range this season, and he wasn't even close.
His clearing attempts have been a complete bugaboo for me. Last game just hit that home, IMO. A lot of those failed clearing attempts are coming off of his stick. It's like he's using a wet noodle. Both he and Martin are also getting beat wide, and then playing way off guys down low. They aren't even stick checking guys. They are just skating beside them.
I forever give the benefit of the doubt to players because I think people think what they do is a lot easier than what it is, and are WAY too quick to criticize. Martin is getting to inexcusable levels of bad. Michalek is getting there too. Our two most expensive bluelines are supposed to make the unit as a whole better, and they just haven't been - especially Martin. I don't think this regular season, Martin was as bad as some believed. He was bad for a stretch in the beginning, really turned it around, and then reverted back.
I'm also not so sure it's completely on the players. I think there's enough tape on our breakout now. I think team's know how to counter it. Rather than pressuring us where the defensemen would quickly move it to one another and then get our forwards with speed the other way, you're seeing teams sending 1 guy, and then they have 3 standing across our blueline waiting to pick off stretch passes.
I don't have answers. I just know that something has to change in regards to our defense, and this team has to show more character in killing teams off. The team was like Jekyll and Hyde last night. The same team didn't play the last 40 that played the first 20.
Didn't mean to rant, but that's my opinion on the issue.
agree with everything. especially the bolded, he's done a complete 180 with regards to his outlet pass.
People can bring up what both did for their old teams. That's all well and good, and some may even be valid, but I watched those two play shutdown hockey last season on the Penguins, in this system. You can't just look over that.
Regarding Michalek's passing, last season that guy made some of the best stretch passes I have seen. I'm talking stretch passes that put Whitney and Gonchar to shame. That guy also has a fantastic shot when he wants to use it. I thoroughly expected him to be in the 30 point range this season, and he wasn't even close.
His clearing attempts have been a complete bugaboo for me. Last game just hit that home, IMO. A lot of those failed clearing attempts are coming off of his stick. It's like he's using a wet noodle. Both he and Martin are also getting beat wide, and then playing way off guys down low. They aren't even stick checking guys. They are just skating beside them.
I forever give the benefit of the doubt to players because I think people think what they do is a lot easier than what it is, and are WAY too quick to criticize. Martin is getting to inexcusable levels of bad. Michalek is getting there too. Our two most expensive bluelines are supposed to make the unit as a whole better, and they just haven't been - especially Martin. I don't think this regular season, Martin was as bad as some believed. He was bad for a stretch in the beginning, really turned it around, and then reverted back.
I'm also not so sure it's completely on the players. I think there's enough tape on our breakout now. I think team's know how to counter it. Rather than pressuring us where the defensemen would quickly move it to one another and then get our forwards with speed the other way, you're seeing teams sending 1 guy, and then they have 3 standing across our blueline waiting to pick off stretch passes.
I don't have answers. I just know that something has to change in regards to our defense, and this team has to show more character in killing teams off. The team was like Jekyll and Hyde last night. The same team didn't play the last 40 that played the first 20.
Didn't mean to rant, but that's my opinion on the issue.
I can't disagree with anything, including the lack of a real 'explanation' for Martin and Michalek, but I wanted to highlight what you wrote about those breakout stretch passes. Part of the problem, as you note, is that there's good tape on it. Teams are cheating towards it in the same way they cheat to Geno as a PP shooter. I commented elsewhere that I'd like to see the Pens mix it up on the breakout. Give the defenseman another option aside from the stretch pass. One, it gives him another option. Two, it makes the Pens first pass less predictable, which would help to keep teams from cheating against that stretch pass. And, BTW, on that stretch pass into coverage (because he's got no choice), Michalek isn't the only big culprit. Orpik and Engo may be worse.
What could change is our defensemen skate it more. Let them carry the mail. All of them can do that.
Another thing that I would like to see change is the forcing of passes. High off the glass works, also hard chips into the zone works too. Last night, there were almost no dumps at all.
Errey was real into talking about "investing" last night, where you make big hits now to wear guys down later. Nothing wears a team down more than chipping pucks in, crashing and banging, and then making a team come 200 feet. Nothing. You can't do anything to substitute for that either. This is why when people talk about wanting flashy danglers and I'm pretty quick to say we don't need that. That's not how you win right now. You win by running guys through the boards and making them feel it every single time they decide to touch the puck.
We have got away from our identity under DB. If you think back to the Cup year, that team scored so many goals off of dumping pucks in, ruining defensemen behind their goal line, getting pucks back, and then scoring. This team now would rather dangle in the neutral zone or make 7 drop passes in one play.
Simple hockey wins, especially when you have the talent we have.
What could change is our defensemen skate it more. Let them carry the mail. All of them can do that.
Another thing that I would like to see change is the forcing of passes. High off the glass works, also hard chips into the zone works too. Last night, there were almost no dumps at all.
Errey was real into talking about "investing" last night, where you make big hits now to wear guys down later. Nothing wears a team down more than chipping pucks in, crashing and banging, and then making a team come 200 feet. Nothing. You can't do anything to substitute for that either. This is why when people talk about wanting flashy danglers and I'm pretty quick to say we don't need that. That's not how you win right now. You win by running guys through the boards and making them feel it every single time they decide to touch the puck.
We have got away from our identity under DB. If you think back to the Cup year, that team scored so many goals off of dumping pucks in, ruining defensemen behind their goal line, getting pucks back, and then scoring. This team now would rather dangle in the neutral zone or make 7 drop passes in one play.
Simple hockey wins, especially when you have the talent we have.
So, the million dollar question: Why do they STOP investing after a period? This isn't the first time. Is it players saying 'ha ha, we're up 3-0, no reason to push it'? Is it coaches saying 'back off and play it safe'? I suspect it's a bit of both but this team, no matter the score, can never quit investing.
Side note: Even when you've got two forecheckers and the F3 is in perfect position, the gap from the D is absolute **** when the other team is breaking out. 2009, even Gill and Scuderi were parks at center ice in that situation and ready to step up.
What could change is our defensemen skate it more. Let them carry the mail. All of them can do that.
Another thing that I would like to see change is the forcing of passes. High off the glass works, also hard chips into the zone works too. Last night, there were almost no dumps at all.
Errey was real into talking about "investing" last night, where you make big hits now to wear guys down later. Nothing wears a team down more than chipping pucks in, crashing and banging, and then making a team come 200 feet. Nothing. You can't do anything to substitute for that either. This is why when people talk about wanting flashy danglers and I'm pretty quick to say we don't need that. That's not how you win right now. You win by running guys through the boards and making them feel it every single time they decide to touch the puck.
We have got away from our identity under DB. If you think back to the Cup year, that team scored so many goals off of dumping pucks in, ruining defensemen behind their goal line, getting pucks back, and then scoring. This team now would rather dangle in the neutral zone or make 7 drop passes in one play.
Simple hockey wins, especially when you have the talent we have.
That is why I keep saying they have to keep it simple, but then we see Malkin skating backwards 5 feet inside the attacking blue line with a 3-0 lead and throwing the puck backwards to no one... And the Flyers take off the other way and generate a great scoring chance. Then ppl wonder why they can't hold a lead agt this team..... Uh, puck mgmt.
The Pens beat Det in games 6 and 7 by chipping and chasing... It is all they did and it wore the Wings down.
You make some good points, but you overreact a bit.
Shero didn't sign horrible d-men. Martin is actually a pretty darn good d-man, but he's overkill here and not needed because, frankly, Michalek is better than him. You replace Martin with Despres and you regress. Replace Martin with a crease clearer, and then the D will improve. We're really lacking a Gill type, even Scuds kept other teams honest in front of the net. Brooks is a good hitter, but he's not scaring anyone in front of Fleury. This d is incredibly soft...skilled...but soft. We need a bit more sandpaper.
I've already discussed my frustration with the complete change in gameplay after the first. How much of it is the players getting comfortable with a lead and how much is it coaching? That's hard to tell, but it's concerning when we've blown, what, 3...4? leads against this team and they pull the same stunt.
All that being said, this series is far from over.
Who choose to have this defensive core.
Nevermind Martin-Z being ineffective.
Look at our defense, we don't have anybody who is truly tough and stoud in their own zone.
We have no Dennis Seidenberg/Johnny Boychuk/Dan Girardi types, none.
This defense is built to easily fetch a dump in puck, skate on stride, outlet the puck, break out, and have an odd man rush. That is as HCDB says "Pittsburgh Penguins hockey."
Except we have not seen that in weeks, other teams have studied film. Instead of adjusting it seems HCDB keeps the same approach.
Further, the d itself is not built to play much in their own zone because they are smaller, mobile, skaters.
But that is not the way it works, and it is frustrating seeing such a fundamental flaw.
Whose choice was this? HCDB or GMRS or both? It's flawed, you have to be stout in your end, you can't make turn overs, be sloppy with assignments on defense, and it just seems HCDB and GMRS have neither the talent or willingness to make such an adjustment.
sens fan on the playoff board noted hearing a "no, no, no" before the non icing touch up.
made nme go back and turn the volume all the way up and heard a "no" myself
not exactly the "gift" flyer fans think we got
Well, you could clearly hear it on TV sure. And it's not as blatant an error as the offsides on Briere, but that was one damn late waiving off of an icing.
It's pretty hard to say we didn't catch a break there.
