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Old
04-13-2012, 08:21 AM
  #26
The Gal Pals
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Montreal needed a shooter for the PP not a passer. By going to get Kabs was the height of stupidity because the guy never shoots. It made no sense. In past yrs we've had Souray, Streit, Bergeron, Wiznieski with their big shots from the point but we've let them all go. Spacek was brought in to replace Streit but he proved to be terrible on PP and almost everywhere else on the ice. Subban isn't ready to be the shooter cause his shots are erratic and his timing isn't right yet. Weber is good at times but he shows breakdowns and can't be trusted 5 on 5 yet. After 6 or 7 yrs of constantly having to get a shooter for the PP you would've thought PG would've been bright enough to realize that was the need but he wasn't. And he was in the habs organization all that time so he has no excuse. Good riddance to him.

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04-13-2012, 08:37 AM
  #27
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Its a decent deal, 4.25M for 2 years, isn't bad, specially since we have ton of cap space, and by the way the 4.25M is only 6.65% of a 64M cap.

Going into next year, what our D-core is another stay at home D-men, Jackman or Garrison should be signed if they make it to July 1st

Markov-Gorges

Jackman/Garrison-Subban

Kaberle-Emelin

Diaz/Weber

I think we will keep Kaberle for about a year/year and half, keep him and let Beaulieu play a year-year in half in the AHL, and simply when Beaulieu is ready, trade Kaberle and put Beauieu on the 3rd pair.

Also if you don't think Kaberle has value even at his contract, look at what the Devils gave up near the trade deadline for Marek Zidlicky, a guy very similar to Kaberle in terms of play, style and contract. The Wild got a 2nd and a prospct for Zidlicky, we could easily get the same if not more for Kaberle if we were to trade him.

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04-13-2012, 08:41 AM
  #28
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Hi, I'm Blind Gardien. You might remember me from such epic threads as the Taconite chronicles or the Theodorean Tragedy. But you probably won't because now I'm a stuck up global mod and never contribute anything remotely entertaining or thoughtful to the board anymore.

I think Kaberle basically sucks, and I'd give him away for a bag of pucks if I could. I think he's a waste of cap space. Diaz and Weber are as good as he is, and tons cheaper, so if we are arguing redundancies, Kaberle would be my first choice to get tossed overboard.

I lament the Spacek for Kaberle trade, in small part because I think Spacek is a slightly better player, but in large part because if we still had Spacek he'd be set loose as a UFA shortly, and we'd have that cap space open to go shopping for a bigger, better, prime years free agent defenseman who fits the needs of our team more.

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04-13-2012, 08:56 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Revisiting this trade is like revisiting the Bates motel.

Don't drop the soap in the shower...

I like this Troy MaClure intro too. I should start all my threads like this.

Hi I'm Lafleurs Guy. You may remember me from such threads as "It's time to rebuild" and "It's time to rebuild NOW!" I like it.
Me too...........

Hi I'm swimmer77 and you may remember me as I feverishly balked at the non-signing of Hamrlik or a similar defenseman who could assume Hamr's role IN CASE MARKOV WAS UNAVAILABLE in numerous threads. And I took a lot of backlashing for choosing Hamrlik over Hal Gill.

So one of the results of that NON-MOVE that should have been made in the off season is Kaberle. I still don't like the Kaberle trade as a result. Softer than butter. Geez I miss the days of a Souray, a Hamrlik, a Bouillon, Komisarek - guys who would lay someone out and to think at one point in time the Habs had three of those guys. O'Byrne too so make it 4.

Kaberle is not a difference maker. Please unload that salary. I'd be happy with a cheap, MAB type player - someone who has a legit shot and signing an actual top 4, two d-man, proven d-man with Kaberle's money IN CASE MARKOV IS UNAVAILABLE.

I bet the Habs re-sign Hal Gill upon which I'll throw up in my Post Toasties.


Last edited by swimmer77: 04-13-2012 at 09:49 AM.
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04-13-2012, 09:10 AM
  #30
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I now think that it is a decent trade considering the lack of quality UFA Ds (we won't get Suter), the lack of Ds in our farm (for next season, I know it is coming...) and the lack of a CBA that might cause problems for GMs in the upcoming UFA season. It's not like the Habs would be contenders if Kaberle didn't steal ice time from Diaz or Weber.

Edit: Kaberle is an asset that could be traded eventually. I don't expect him to play the full 2 years and walk freely.

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04-13-2012, 09:16 AM
  #31
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Hi guys, I'm sort of new here too, you guys may remember me as the guy who hated the Traverse deal? Who's laughing now?

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04-13-2012, 09:22 AM
  #32
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Hi guys, you might remember me from my "Happy Birthday natey2k4!!!" and "Happy Birthday Natey2k4!! (part 2)" threads.

Happy birthday natey2k4

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04-13-2012, 09:27 AM
  #33
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I'll have to eat some crow on this one, at the time I thought it wasn't a bad trade as I thought Spacek was done and Kabs would help our brutal PP. But with Kabs due 8.75M over 2 years and a 4.25M cap hit, plus his weak defensive game it's going to be painful to have to watch this guy play for the Habs.

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04-13-2012, 09:39 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
I now think that it is a decent trade considering the lack of quality UFA Ds (we won't get Suter), the lack of Ds in our farm (for next season, I know it is coming...) and the lack of a CBA that might cause problems for GMs in the upcoming UFA season. It's not like the Habs would be contenders if Kaberle didn't steal ice time from Diaz or Weber.

Edit: Kaberle is an asset that could be traded eventually. I don't expect him to play the full 2 years and walk freely.
I hope Markov will be able to.

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04-13-2012, 09:47 AM
  #35
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Kaberle is definitely movable. Perhaps on draft day. Perhaps by next deadline.

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04-13-2012, 09:50 AM
  #36
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Spacek would be a free man right now... We are stuck with Kaberle for another 2 year? Really bad trade.

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04-13-2012, 09:52 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Kaberle is definitely movable. Perhaps on draft day. Perhaps by next deadline.
This

I think to maximize the return its best to wait until the deadline, teams overpay during the deadline, specially for a guy like Kaberle. I think we can maybe get a 2nd 3rd round pick for Kaberle this summer, but possible a 2nd and a decent prospect for Kaberle next traded deadline.

Plus I say we keep him until Bealieau is ready to replace him.

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04-13-2012, 09:58 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by airic000 View Post
Montreal needed a shooter for the PP not a passer. By going to get Kabs was the height of stupidity because the guy never shoots. It made no sense. In past yrs we've had Souray, Streit, Bergeron, Wiznieski with their big shots from the point but we've let them all go. Spacek was brought in to replace Streit but he proved to be terrible on PP and almost everywhere else on the ice. Subban isn't ready to be the shooter cause his shots are erratic and his timing isn't right yet. Weber is good at times but he shows breakdowns and can't be trusted 5 on 5 yet. After 6 or 7 yrs of constantly having to get a shooter for the PP you would've thought PG would've been bright enough to realize that was the need but he wasn't. And he was in the habs organization all that time so he has no excuse. Good riddance to him.
Excuse me? Subban not ready to be a shot from the point? The same PK Subban that led all NHL defensemen in PP goals as a rookie in 2010-11? The same PK Subban that placed 8th in the league in that very stat this season? That guy? Yeah, I think he's ready to be the shot from the blue line. Get Markov and/or Kaberle to feed him, get a coach who knows what a power play is, and it will be far more effective next year. Is he perfect all the time? Heck no, but he's 22 years old, think he might improve over time?

Going back 5 years, only one other defenseman for Montreal scored more than Subban's 9 PP goals (in 2010-11). Was it Streit? Wizniewski? Schneider? Bergeron? No, it was Andrei Markov with 10 in 2007-08. The "big shots" that are apparently key to the PP topped out at 7 PP goals for Streit and Bergeron.

A Markov-Subban combo on the PP would be fantastic. Add in Kaberle and it only gets better, even if he "never shoots" (he does). You don't need another "big shot" from the blue line. And hey, if you do, we already have another one on the roster. Yannick Weber scored 4 on the PP this season, good for 14th in the league.

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04-13-2012, 10:00 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ClasslessGuy View Post
Spacek would be a free man right now... We are stuck with Kaberle for another 2 year? Really bad trade.
How are we stuck? Is his contract unmovable? I provide the example of Zidlicky who is very compareable to Kaberle in every way, from style of play, age, contact, production (edge to Kaberle). Look up the return the Wild got for Zidlicky, and tell me how we are stuck with Kaberle?

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04-13-2012, 10:15 AM
  #40
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What bothers me more than simply acquiring Kaberle (which bothers me a lot) was the total misdirection PG have this team during the year. When BG threw this current roster together in the summer of 08, he went with winners. Guys who had winning mentalities. Guys who overachieved to get where they were in their careers and gave their 100%.

PG goes completely against that logic by acquiring two of the least passionate players I have ever seen in my years as a Hab fan - Kaberle and Bourque. Not to mention their horrific contracts.

We had success before this season because we had winners on our team. Yes, Kaberle won a Cup but it was fairly obvious by Bruins fans hate for him and his diminished role that they won despite him.

Ugh.

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04-13-2012, 10:40 AM
  #41
Madam Kadri
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Tomas Kaberle's hidden cost to us is the free agents we have to pass on because he has tied our cap space for the time being. This is in addition to his lazy play in his own zone and his stupid turnovers, which is going to cost us games, quite possibly in moments where it counts the most.

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04-13-2012, 11:04 AM
  #42
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Kaberle is a good player. Helps the team. Problem is, habs need another(but bigger) gorges shutdown guy more than they need another PMD. It may no sense in that regard. I can live with the contract, but he's redundant.

I will say this, I expect him to bounce back and have a much better year indicative of a top 4 d-man. However, unless habs deal weber, diaz or whoever for a shutdown guy, we're soft at D and kaberle doesn't help.

So essentially, it was a 'good' trade in terms of we got the better player and the cap is managable. It was bad because we didnt need him for 2.5 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
What are you talking about "took heat"? Everyone said they hated this trade when it happened! It was a river of tears about gauthier and the end of the world. It was so bad you would almost swear gauthier had to be anglophone.

I didn't mind the trade when it happened and I havn't changed my mind so far. The guy did what we brought him in to do and what he did his whole career. Just because we have zero supporting staff for him doesn't mean he isn't doing his job.

Next year when we find someone who can shoot the puck and our powerplay isn't garbage then he will probably pot close to 50 points. We can then decide to either move him for a nice pick or hold on to him. I like the trade, he is much better than spacek who was **** reguardless of who played with him.
^^this^^^ especially the bolded parts.

Kaberle put up a 42 point pace with us this season and he had 47 points, 49 points, 31 points (in 57 games played), 53 points and 58 points the years before. Imo the people bashing Kaberle are the same who were bashing Streit during his 62 points season with us.

I no longer am a huge fan of Kaberle (I was a huge fan of Sundin and Kaberle!) but a 45 points D man at 4,3M$ per is definitely not in buyout territory. The guy is a defensive liability but he communicates with our young Ds, he lost weight since joining the team, he is one of our best passers (Markov and Desharnais territory) , he plays with aplomb on the PP...

However his presence, combined with Markov and Subban, dictates that the next prioritiy should be a tough, stay at home and experienced D imo. If 2011-12 taught us something it's that a redundant (Kaberle + Diaz + Weber = not good!) and inexperienced D squad directly leads to the NHL caves.

As I already mentioned in another thread:

"... I truly believe that the addition of a tough, experienced, stay at home and even strength minutes eating D like soon to be UFA Barret Jackman would transform us in a playoffs team.

Can you really tell me that the following backend is not playoff worthy?

Markov – Gorges
(Jackman/Emelin) – Subban
Kaberle – (Emelin/Jackman)
(Diaz/Saint-Denis)
Price
"

I like the Spacek for Kaberle trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
Tomas Kaberle's hidden cost to us is the free agents we have to pass on because he has tied our cap space for the time being. This is in addition to his lazy play in his own zone and his stupid turnovers, which is going to cost us games, quite possibly in moments where it counts the most.
You wrote: "Tomas Kaberle's hidden cost to us is the free agents we have to pass on because he has tied our cap space for the time being..."

Thanks to Cammalleri's departure, I think our Canadiens have near (Gomez!) zero cap issue.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post

(...)

He actually did fix the power play. Most people choose to ignore that, but the PP was far better with Kaberle than without.

With Kaberle in the Lineup: 26-for-151, 17.2%
Without Kaberle in the Lineup: 17-for-150, 11.3%

But as always, everyone here will focus on the negatives, and point out that since Kaberle is "soft" then there's no place in the league for him.

(...)
Impressive: that's more than a 50% increase. Thanks for the info!


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 04-13-2012 at 11:24 AM.
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04-13-2012, 11:42 AM
  #43
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this has an eery reminiscence to the Gomez conversation last off season...

some posters rationalizing that the player's poor performance really wasn't that bad, that it was his linemates who made him look worse, and that next season he'd bounce back and prove the "haters" wrong by showing how valuable he is...

and then the other camp of posters arguing that the player's performance was bad b/c he played poorly, that at his age/stage of his career, he's unlikely to improve as he gets older, that his approach to the game is the culprit (as opposed to linemates/coaches/media or whatever other excuse), and that while something better than the career worst year he just had should be expected, odds are he still won't deliver quality performance at his cap hit...

unfortunately for all of us, this year Gomez's contributions to the team were even less than last season (even injury aside, his 80 game pace was a laughable 23pts ).


as much as I'm pretty sure that Kaberle will continue to regress, that his soft, uninspired play will continue to be an eye-sore (and a boon to opposing forwards attacking our zone), I really REALLY hope that he proves me wrong and doesn't pull another Gomez on us.


easiest/best solution is clearly to jettison him to any taker (and if the cap does go up, pawning him off to a cap floor team for a late pick should be at least a possibility), hopefully new management takes the time to watch some game tapes (or have a chat with any of his recent coaches/gm's not named Pierre Gauthier).

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04-13-2012, 11:47 AM
  #44
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Excuse me? Subban not ready to be a shot from the point? The same PK Subban that led all NHL defensemen in PP goals as a rookie in 2010-11? The same PK Subban that placed 8th in the league in that very stat this season? That guy? Yeah, I think he's ready to be the shot from the blue line. Get Markov and/or Kaberle to feed him, get a coach who knows what a power play is, and it will be far more effective next year. Is he perfect all the time? Heck no, but he's 22 years old, think he might improve over time?

Going back 5 years, only one other defenseman for Montreal scored more than Subban's 9 PP goals (in 2010-11). Was it Streit? Wizniewski? Schneider? Bergeron? No, it was Andrei Markov with 10 in 2007-08. The "big shots" that are apparently key to the PP topped out at 7 PP goals for Streit and Bergeron.

A Markov-Subban combo on the PP would be fantastic. Add in Kaberle and it only gets better, even if he "never shoots" (he does). You don't need another "big shot" from the blue line. And hey, if you do, we already have another one on the roster. Yannick Weber scored 4 on the PP this season, good for 14th in the league.
Hey don't get me wrong, I love Subban, I even have his jersey but if you're seriously suggesting that Subban was the answer to the PP this yr guess again. There's a reason why this yrs PP stunk and why it was the top of the league in previous yrs and that was the lack of the big booming shot from the point that certain players were able to provide in the past.

The reason the PP worked so well in previous yrs is because the other teams would focus their energy on the guy with big shot leaving everyone else on Mtl's PP open to do whatever they wanted. I can't believe you're even debating this. Every time Mtl's PP started to slip in previous yrs was due to a lack of a big point shot which was quickly rectified by bringing in the likes of Bergeron, Schneider, the Wiz, etc.

You suggest a Markov-Subban combo on PP would be fantastic...dude what did you think we had since Markov returned? Markov had 2 assists. Subban was great when he was playing with the Wiz last yr because the Wiz provided the big shot from the point. Subsequently, other teams focused all their energy trying to shut down the passing lanes to the Wiz which made him less effective but which left everyone else open and THAT'S why Subban was able to thrive.

Also I don't see how you can say Kabs makes it better. Sure he brings a calming effect to the PP but you still need that big shot. Kabs used to be great on the PP in TO when he played with McCabe. Kabs and McCabe racked up the points because Kabs fed McCabe with his big shot. Where is this big shot in Mtl??? Right now all we have are great passers at the point. And like I said, Weber showed he wasn't ready yet. He shows glimpses of greatness on PP and then after 5 games he disappears and we're all left wondering what happened.

I'm not saying Kabs is useless but he serves no function with Markov in the lineup because now we have 2-3 guys who can pretty much do the same thing but we lack a big shot from the point. Until Subban can tame his shot or get more accuracy on it, he's not that guy.

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04-13-2012, 11:49 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
Tomas Kaberle's hidden cost to us is the free agents we have to pass on because he has tied our cap space for the time being. This is in addition to his lazy play in his own zone and his stupid turnovers, which is going to cost us games, quite possibly in moments where it counts the most.
Man, I feel bad for all those UFA's just aching to join a perennial contender.

p.s. for the record Kaberle does indeed suck.

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04-13-2012, 11:52 AM
  #46
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I know PP got better with kaberle but what's our record with and without kaberle?

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04-13-2012, 11:58 AM
  #47
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I think we just found our avatar theme for next season.

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04-13-2012, 12:00 PM
  #48
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Didn't like it then, don't like it more now and I won't like it for the next 2 years but everyone has their own opinion. I would invest that money on a different player, Kaberle is not the style of player I would want especially with Markov and PK already on this team

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04-13-2012, 12:01 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by sXe View Post
Man, I feel bad for all those UFA's just aching to join a perennial contender.

p.s. for the record Kaberle does indeed suck.
Yeah, 4 million free dollars can't land you one good player or two decent role players. Or it will makes re-signing the guys you want in the next few years more difficult.

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04-13-2012, 12:04 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
Yeah, 4 million free dollars can't land you one good player or two decent role players. Or it will makes re-signing the guys you want in the next few years more difficult.
The same people that defended Gauthier about this move saying having money isn't a problem better the player then said hey Gauthier even saved 3 million off the cap in this trade ( The Cammalleri one )

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