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Revisiting the Kaberle-Spacek deal

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Old
04-13-2012, 01:18 PM
  #51
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Did Spacegoat suck as a Cane? If so I might say that we still have a chance to win this trade.

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04-13-2012, 01:19 PM
  #52
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I wasn't terribly upset at the trade when it happened because it's not my money and I didn't see Spacek as having any value moving forward. But he's been terrible. He's a wonderful passer and a terrible defenceman, shows no effort and simply isn't competing hard, pretty much ever. It looks like he's just going through the motions, a shell of a player he was. He's disinterested. He's a bad role model and an issue for the team moving foward. To think a team in a death spiral would add long-term character problems like Kaberle and Borque is just mind boggling. Gauthier screwed the pooch bigtime. Best I can hope for now is the team just buries him. More likely he'll linger like a piece of tp stuck to the team's behind.

As for Spacek, his departure helped the tank. So there's that.

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04-13-2012, 01:27 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Kaberle is definitely movable. Perhaps on draft day. Perhaps by next deadline.
He's even more movable if you put him in a cannon and shoot him to some team in the east for a dozen pucks and a 22nd round draft pick... Someone musta taken Gauthier's wife and child as hostages and forced him to make that lame a** deal i tells ya...

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04-13-2012, 01:30 PM
  #54
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Great trade in my opinion. Montreal fans can be very harsh. We acquired a great puck moving defenseman that helps our transition game. He's obviously better than Spacek. Cap hit at 4.25 million seems very low in my mind and for am experienced dman of his talent. He also expressed that he wants to play in Montreal. Please recall that Boston 6 months before paid prospect centre Joe Colborne (former 1st), the Bruins' first-round pick in 2011 and a conditional second-round draft pick in 2012.

Pretty sure that a new coach will turn this team around and having Kaberle will be a big asset

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04-13-2012, 01:37 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Steve Shutt View Post
Great trade in my opinion. Montreal fans can be very harsh. We acquired a great puck moving defenseman that helps our transition game. He's obviously better than Spacek. Cap hit at 4.25 million seems very low in my mind and for am experienced dman of his talent. He also expressed that he wants to play in Montreal. Please recall that Boston 6 months before paid prospect centre Joe Colborne (former 1st), the Bruins' first-round pick in 2011 and a conditional second-round draft pick in 2012.

Pretty sure that a new coach will turn this team around and having Kaberle will be a big asset
yes, then they proceeded to play him as a 5-6th dman in the playoffs, clearly 6th in cup finals, offer him 1/2 of what he wanted on a new contract, and when he balked, effectively replace him with Corvo...

who played more minutes/game for the division winning Bruins (who had a relatively healthy season from their dmen) than Kaberle could warrant playing on the last in the conference, injury riddled on defense Canadiens.

Boston made a "mistake" in giving up as many assets as they did to get him, but a cup win helped to rectify it in the short term and their GM was smart enough to swallow his pride and not try to justify the mistake by overpaying a player clearly on a sharp decline.

Canes screwed up in giving him the contract, but found a willing dunce to fix their mess, and now our incoming GM is faced with the same task...

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04-13-2012, 01:48 PM
  #56
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Some fans are overreacting. Kaberle didn't hurt the Habs much on the ice. The PP wasn't working, Spacek wasn't helping there, and in a few games Kaberle was useful. The worst thing about the trade was financial. Some team might want him. He could be bought out or traded or else retained as insurance in case the PP flops again next season.

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04-13-2012, 01:57 PM
  #57
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Maybe on his last year of his deal we can get a 3rd for him.

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04-13-2012, 02:00 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Kaberle put up 22 points in 43 games for Montreal, a pace to get him above 40 points had he played here the whole season. Only 19 defensemen hit 40 points this year. That's how rare it is to get good production from a defenseman.

Powerplay With Kaberle in the Lineup: 26-for-151, 17.2%
Powerplay Without Kaberle in the Lineup: 17-for-150, 11.3%

Is he overpaid? Sure. But who isn't? Who are you going to get as a fill-in, even if Kaberle disappeared overnight? Who is going to come in and put up 40+ points from the blue line for less than $4.25 million?
Good post. I also think Kaberle can contribute to this team and at $4 million I'd rather have a soft Kaberle than a lost on the ice Komisarek. If Kaberle plays well next season and with Tinordi and Beaulieu in the wings, the Habs may actually be able to get something good for him in a trade return.

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04-13-2012, 02:26 PM
  #59
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I must admit to my shame that I was one of the fans that thought Gauthier pulled a fast one. But now I realize that the fast one was pulled not on Jim Rutherford but on Molson and the new GM.

Kidding aside, I still think the Kaberle trade could work out. He obviously can not stay with the Habs. He's exactly what we do not need on our defence. Hopefully the new GM and coach can showcase him and move him sometime in the upcoming season. We might even get a second rd pick. After all Gauthier is not alone in the nHL. There's always a Howden or another Milbury lurking in the corridors.

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04-13-2012, 02:34 PM
  #60
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Defense wins. 22 has no such inclinations, both defense and winning seem to have no effect on his compete level. CGG correctly corrected me in another thread when I said the pp looked better with Markov and PK at the points and Kaberle at home, he pointed out the pp's improvement with him here; but that improvement did nothing to help us in the win column & in fact we were a lot worse with him, and absolutely brutal in our zone. Yes he played with Campoli, but Kaberle was very frequently the root of the problems on ice, as much as Campoli.

Floater, out of shape, unwilling to take part in the physical game whatsoever at any moment, uninterested in playing proper positional defence. Demonstrates zero fire or will to win. Want this nowhere near a young d corps. Only gets interested in the attacking zone but his passing, while good, is overrated by many here. How many times was I screaming for him not to follow his man around the net...or drift randomly into a corner...or watch the middle of the ice...or take a guy already covered...or watch his blind side...or this, that, this, that...

But hey he got some points for the worst team in the conference so I guess he is a mountain of gold in the fantasy leagues. Gomez and Bourque will also be a fantastic 1-2 punch on the 2nd line next year.

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04-13-2012, 02:38 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
For all the complaining that gets done that Montreal never buys low, this is a textbook definition of exactly that - they took an asset that was almost completely worthless (Spacek, who most fans wanted to dump to the minors despite common sense, logic, and the CBA which would have kept his cap hit on the books) and turned it into a useful player. Yes, Kaberle is a useful player.

Spacek couldn't even get dumped at the trade deadline for a late round pick.

Kaberle put up 22 points in 43 games for Montreal, a pace to get him above 40 points had he played here the whole season. Only 19 defensemen hit 40 points this year. That's how rare it is to get good production from a defenseman.

Gauthier did this to get a Markov fill-in, getting a good player for literally nothing. He needed to fix the power play and hoped that would be enough to get Montreal back in the playoff race. Unfortunately about a week later he fired Martin and installed Cunneyworth, and all hope was lost. But that shouldn't be on Kaberle.

He actually did fix the power play. Most people choose to ignore that, but the PP was far better with Kaberle than without.

With Kaberle in the Lineup: 26-for-151, 17.2%
Without Kaberle in the Lineup: 17-for-150, 11.3%

But as always, everyone here will focus on the negatives, and point out that since Kaberle is "soft" then there's no place in the league for him. Well, any stiff can crosscheck people in front of the net if that's what you're looking for. Kaberle can do what maybe only 30 others in the league can do - put up a serious number of points from the blue line, not to mention make a decent first pass.

I for one am actually looking forward to a regular power play that features Subban, Markov AND Kaberle on the point. Imagine a new coach having all 3 of those weapons at his disposal. One of those 3 will get to feast on the 2nd unit penalty kill all year.

As for 5-on-5, he's not going to be on the top pairing any more. But he was always "soft" in Toronto, and that didn't exactly prevent him from being their # 1 D for a very long time. Partner him up with Gorges, Emelin, or a mid level UFA on the right side and we're good.

Is he overpaid? Sure. But who isn't? Who are you going to get as a fill-in, even if Kaberle disappeared overnight? Who is going to come in and put up 40+ points from the blue line for less than $4.25 million? What killed this team is injuries and lack of depth. So getting rid of Kaberle, Weber and Diaz, well great, you've just got rid of what little depth we had, and we'd be compeltely dependent on trying to find some decent free agents from a very limited list.



Seems I'll need to repeat this over and over.

With Kaberle in the Lineup: 26-for-151, 17.2%
Without Kaberle in the Lineup: 17-for-150, 11.3%

17.2% would have been good enough for 14th in the league. Not fantastic, but certainly not a disaster.
Best post that got pretty much glossed right over by the masses who can't get past their own nonsense.

I remember when we first got him people were complaining that Kaberle wasn't fighting or throwing checks!

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04-13-2012, 02:44 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Kaberle is definitely movable. Perhaps on draft day. Perhaps by next deadline.
I guess anything is possible, certainly if I were a GM, I would need to be very desperate to even consider being interested in Kabs. I know he can put some points up and he's a very good passer but with 8.75M left even if the price is next to nothing it's seems unlikely to me that many if any GM's would bite.

Perhaps at the deadline there may be more interest since much of his salary for the year will be paid and we've seen how nuts deadline can get at times.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I know PP got better with kaberle but what's our record with and without kaberle?
Well we won 31 of 82 games so it can't be much better. Since JM was fired a week or so after the trade, and we were 13-12-7 under JM and 18-23-9 under the Randy's it's got to be something close to that.

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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
The same people that defended Gauthier about this move saying having money isn't a problem better the player then said hey Gauthier even saved 3 million off the cap in this trade ( The Cammalleri one )
I wouldn't compare this to the Cammy trade though, as Cammy get 7M for the next 2 years, not many teams are willing to take on 7M a year in actual salary.

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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Did Spacegoat suck as a Cane? If so I might say that we still have a chance to win this trade.
no we don't

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Originally Posted by Steve Shutt View Post
Great trade in my opinion. Montreal fans can be very harsh. We acquired a great puck moving defenseman that helps our transition game. He's obviously better than Spacek. Cap hit at 4.25 million seems very low in my mind and for am experienced dman of his talent. He also expressed that he wants to play in Montreal. Please recall that Boston 6 months before paid prospect centre Joe Colborne (former 1st), the Bruins' first-round pick in 2011 and a conditional second-round draft pick in 2012.

Pretty sure that a new coach will turn this team around and having Kaberle will be a big asset
wow, I want some of whatever drugs you are on. 4.25M cap is now considered "very low" and I doubt you will find anyone that thinks this was a great trade. Who cares that boston overpaid for him.

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Originally Posted by 24Cups View Post
Good post. I also think Kaberle can contribute to this team and at $4 million I'd rather have a soft Kaberle than a lost on the ice Komisarek. If Kaberle plays well next season and with Tinordi and Beaulieu in the wings, the Habs may actually be able to get something good for him in a trade return.
Kabs is due 8.75M over 2 so it's not 4M.

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04-13-2012, 03:00 PM
  #63
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Good post. I also think Kaberle can contribute to this team and at $4 million I'd rather have a soft Kaberle than a lost on the ice Komisarek.
I hate the type of reasoning. So because the leafs screwed the pooch on Komisarek, its okay that Montreal screwed the pooch with Kaberle. It doesnt mean you want either on your team at 4 million, its that simple.

also, in terms relative to the rest of the league, Montreals PP rank actually dropped a few notches after Kaberle was acquired. So really, the rest of the league improved more than Montreal did over the course of the rest of the year.

Fact is Montreal finished the worst they have in how many years. I would say there were more players who "contributed" to the failure of this team then any positives they brought. Kaberle along with guys like Gomez, Bourque, Cammalleri and Kostitsyn when he was here, Campoli etc etc. Even the faithful Captain was nothing short of mediocre this year.

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04-13-2012, 03:01 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
I guess anything is possible, certainly if I were a GM, I would need to be very desperate to even consider being interested in Kabs. I know he can put some points up and he's a very good passer but with 8.75M left even if the price is next to nothing it's seems unlikely to me that many if any GM's would bite.

Perhaps at the deadline there may be more interest since much of his salary for the year will be paid and we've seen how nuts deadline can get at times.



Well we won 31 of 82 games so it can't be much better. Since JM was fired a week or so after the trade, and we were 13-12-7 under JM and 18-23-9 under the Randy's it's got to be something close to that.



I wouldn't compare this to the Cammy trade though, as Cammy get 7M for the next 2 years, not many teams are willing to take on 7M a year in actual salary.



no we don't



wow, I want some of whatever drugs you are on. 4.25M cap is now considered "very low" and I doubt you will find anyone that thinks this was a great trade. Who cares that boston overpaid for him.



Kabs is due 8.75M over 2 so it's not 4M.
I've mentioned it many times, Marek Zidlicky is the best example, similar contract, style of play, production, defensive play, during the trade deadline, teams will pay a lot for veteran puck moving D-men like Kaberle and Zidlicky.

By next year deadline, if someone like Bealieau is ready to make the jump to the NHL after spending the year in the AHL, Habs management can easily trade Kaberle for a 2nd and possible a decent prospect, like the Wild did with Zidlicky.

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04-13-2012, 03:09 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
wow, I want some of whatever drugs you are on. 4.25M cap is now considered "very low" and I doubt you will find anyone that thinks this was a great trade. Who cares that boston overpaid for him.
Feel free to disagree with me but no need to suggest I'm on drugs. Here's a few other dmen and their salaries. Kaberle made $4M this season but had a cap hit of 4.25M. Does not lot look out of whack to me compared to what others dmen around the league are earning.

Brian Campbell FLA $7,140,000
Jay Bouwmeester CGY $6,680,000
Dan Boyle SJS $6,667,000
Dion Phaneuf TOR $6,500,000
Wade Redden NYR $6,500,000
Kimmo Timonen PHI $6,333,000
Andrei Markov MTL $5,750,000
Lubomir Visnovsky ANA $5,600,000
Sergei Gonchar OTT $5,500,000
James Wisniewski CLB $5,500,000
Mike Green WAS $5,250,000
Paul Martin PIT $5,000,000
Michal Rozsival PHX $5,000,000
Kevin Bieksa VAN $4,600,000
Joni Pitkanen CAR $4,500,000
Mike Komisarek TOR $4,500,000
Ron Hainsey WPG $4,500,000
Dan Hamhuis VAN $4,500,000
Jack Johnson LAK $4,357,000
Anton Volchenkov NJD $4,250,000
Tomas Kaberle CAR $4,250,000 (Cap Hit) $4,000,000 (Actual Salary)
John-Michael Liles TOR $4,200,000
Keith Ballard VAN $4,200,000

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04-13-2012, 03:13 PM
  #66
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Kaberle just needs to lose some weight

He'll skate better and therefore play better

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04-13-2012, 03:15 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
I've mentioned it many times, Marek Zidlicky is the best example, similar contract, style of play, production, defensive play, during the trade deadline, teams will pay a lot for veteran puck moving D-men like Kaberle and Zidlicky.

By next year deadline, if someone like Bealieau is ready to make the jump to the NHL after spending the year in the AHL, Habs management can easily trade Kaberle for a 2nd and possible a decent prospect, like the Wild did with Zidlicky.
Well I did say right below what you highlighted that he could have some interest at the deadline since we see how nuts the deadline can get at times plus much of his salary for the year will be paid. But I don't think there will be much interest in him in the off season when he's still owed 8.75M, granted like I said you never know what another GM will be willing to do but for me I would be surprised if there was much interest in him this summer unless it's a case were we take back something close in salary.

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04-13-2012, 03:17 PM
  #68
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Here's the top 50 from 2011-12. By 2013-14 his 4.25M will probably place him around 70th (assuming every season 10 guys bump above him - for example Subban, Kulikov, McBain, etc)

1. Ehrhoff, Christian D BUF 29 10 $10,000,000
2. Chara, Zdeno D BOS 35 7 $8,500,000
3. Keith, Duncan D CHI 28 13 $8,000,000
4. Pronger, Chris D PHI 37 7 $7,600,000
5. Weber, Shea D NAS 26 1 $7,500,000
6. Campbell, Brian D FLA 32 8 $7,142,875
7. Seabrook, Brent D CHI 26 5 $7,000,000
8. Bieksa, Kevin D VAN 30 5 $7,000,000
9. Wisniewski, James D CLB 28 6 $7,000,000
10. Boyle, Dan D SAN 35 6 $6,666,666
11. Bouwmeester, Jay D CGY 28 5 $6,600,000
12. Phaneuf, Dion D TOR 27 6 $6,500,000
13. Redden, Wade D NYR 34 6 $6,500,000
14. Lidstrom, Nicklas D DET 41 1 $6,200,000
15. Doughty, Drew D LAK 22 8 $6,000,000
16. Markov, Andrei D MTL 33 3 $5,750,000
17. Ohlund, Mattias D TBL 35 7 $5,500,000
18. Komisarek, Mike D TOR 30 5 $5,500,000
19. Gonchar, Sergei D OTT 38 3 $5,500,000
20. Martin, Paul D PIT 31 5 $5,500,000
21. Gilbert, Tom D MIN 29 6 $5,000,000
22. Visnovsky, Lubomir D ANA 35 5 $5,000,000
23. Whitney, Ryan D EDM 29 6 $5,000,000
24. Hainsey, Ron D WIN 31 5 $5,000,000
25. Timonen, Kimmo D PHI 37 6 $5,000,000
26. Green, Mike D WAS 26 4 $5,000,000
27. Hamhuis, Dan D VAN 29 6 $5,000,000
28. Yandle, Keith D PHO 25 5 $4,750,000
29. Giordano, Mark D CGY 29 5 $4,600,000
30. Montador, Steve D CHI 32 4 $4,600,000
31. Schenn, Luke D TOR 22 5 $4,600,000
32. Liles, John-Michael D TOR 31 4 $4,550,000
33. Wideman, Dennis D WAS 29 4 $4,500,000
34. Pitkanen, Joni D CAR 28 3 $4,500,000
35. Volchenkov, Anton D NJD 30 6 $4,250,000
36. Byfuglien, Dustin D WIN 27 5 $4,250,000
37. Sekera, Andrej D BUF 25 4 $4,250,000
38. Ballard, Keith D VAN 29 6 $4,200,000
39. Streit, Mark D NYI 34 5 $4,100,000
40. Enstrom, Tobias D WIN 27 4 $4,000,000
41. Regehr, Robyn D BUF 31 5 $4,000,000
42. Meszaros, Andrej D PHI 26 6 $4,000,000
43. Burns, Brent D SAN 27 4 $4,000,000
44. Oduya, Johnny D CHI 30 3 $4,000,000
45. Zidlicky, Marek D NJD 35 3 $4,000,000
46. Michalek, Zbynek D PIT 29 5 $4,000,000
47. Jovanovski, Ed D FLA 35 4 $4,000,000
48. Kaberle, Tomas D MTL 34 3 $4,000,000
49. Spacek, Jaroslav D CAR 38 3 $3,833,333
50. Carle, Matt D PHI 27 4 $3,800,000

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04-13-2012, 03:19 PM
  #69
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Feel free to disagree with me but no need to suggest I'm on drugs. Here's a few other dmen and their salaries. Kaberle made $4M this season but had a cap hit of 4.25M. Does not lot look out of whack to me compared to what others dmen around the league are earning
It was said more in jest but I think you would need to be on some good drugs to think that his cap hit is low and that it was a great trade. But everyone has their own opinion, just I think you may be alone in calling this a great trade unless Kabs suddenly plays hockey like he actually cares and isn't one of the softest players to ever play in the NHL.

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04-13-2012, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I know PP got better with kaberle but what's our record with and without kaberle?
The problem is that Kaberle came in mere days before Martin was fired, which makes it hard to differentiate what's due to what.

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04-13-2012, 03:20 PM
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I thought it was a good trade when it happened and I still think it's a good trade. Kaberle will be a good 5-6 D who can play on the PP next year and his cap hit isn't as bad as some people are making it seem.

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04-13-2012, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Well I did say right below what you highlighted that he could have some interest at the deadline since we see how nuts the deadline can get at times plus much of his salary for the year will be paid. But I don't think there will be much interest in him in the off season when he's still owed 8.75M, granted like I said you never know what another GM will be willing to do but for me I would be surprised if there was much interest in him this summer unless it's a case were we take back something close in salary.
Sorry, I should have read more careful,

But total agree on the summer vs trade deadline value of players like Kaberle.

That is why I think Rutherford biggest mistake with Kaberle wasn't actually signing Kaberle, but rather trading him too soon. It was reported that Kaberle came into camp in bad shape, and it took him a while to get back in to shape. Had Rutherford waited a bit for Kaberle to pick up his game again, he could have offered him to the Devils and got something around Nick Palmieri and a 2nd round pick instead of getting Spacek.

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04-13-2012, 03:32 PM
  #73
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yes, then they proceeded to play him as a 5-6th dman in the playoffs, clearly 6th in cup finals,.
Well, he did finish as the Bruins d-man with the most points. Not bad for a 6th D.

The guy had 1 point less than Lucic during the playoffs. He gets a lot of unwarranted hate.

I wasn't a fan of the trade then, and I still don't like it, mostly due to having him on the books for another 2 years, but he's not as awful as most of you make him out to be.

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04-13-2012, 03:43 PM
  #74
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The Habs were suffering with a useless Spacek. At the time of the trade they still had a chance of making the playoffs. Playoff revenue is important. Passively holding on to Spacek was giving up. Kaberle could be a useful commodity in the future. What more has to be said?

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04-13-2012, 03:46 PM
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montreal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
I thought it was a good trade when it happened and I still think it's a good trade. Kaberle will be a good 5-6 D who can play on the PP next year and his cap hit isn't as bad as some people are making it seem.
Well for us his cap hit isn't so bad because imo I don't see us being able to land any impact UFA's to put the extra cap space to use. The problem is that 4.25M cap hit for what he brings with him owed 8.75M means that he likely will be very tough to move this summer and after just going through the wrose season ever, it's going to be a tough if we are forced to have almost the same extact team back next season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Sorry, I should have read more careful,

But total agree on the summer vs trade deadline value of players like Kaberle.

That is why I think Rutherford biggest mistake with Kaberle wasn't actually signing Kaberle, but rather trading him too soon. It was reported that Kaberle came into camp in bad shape, and it took him a while to get back in to shape. Had Rutherford waited a bit for Kaberle to pick up his game again, he could have offered him to the Devils and got something around Nick Palmieri and a 2nd round pick instead of getting Spacek.
no problem. I would say that Rutherford biggest mistake was signing him to a big contract when he didn't have a very good team. Imo GM's should shy away from high priced UFA's unless they have a team that can get into the playoffs and do some damage. I know you need vets even on bad teams and signing decent vets can help come trade deadline but he was smart to correc the mistake by getting a contract that is off the books so he save 8.75M at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I wasn't a fan of the trade then, and I still don't like it, mostly due to having him on the books for another 2 years, but he's not as awful as most of you make him out to be.
He does find ways to put points on the board, but the thought of having to watch him as Hab for 2 more years makes me want to puke, and that sounds awful enough.

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