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Revisiting the Kaberle-Spacek deal

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Old
04-13-2012, 03:57 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Best post that got pretty much glossed right over by the masses who can't get past their own nonsense.

I remember when we first got him people were complaining that Kaberle wasn't fighting or throwing checks!
Glossed over? Hardly. His bad far, far outweighed his good on the team we had. If you couldn't see what a liability he was defensively, that's nonsense as much as anything else. And no, he did nothing to help us win. We got worse.

My biggest concern with him is the attitude. I think physical conditioning and the willingness to take hits is part of a necessary attitude for winning, in terms of a guy like Kaberle. No-one will ever mistake him for even being competent defensively, and yes, a lot of it was down to RC's amazing decision to pair him with Campoli. And no, you wouldn't want him fighting (did you make that up?) or throwing checks, seeing as his defensive timing is amateurish at best. But you do expect him to play with fire, look like he cares, lead by example, of which there were no signs. This also hurts when you are on a team as bad as we were.

As I've mentioned elsewhere he was absolutely the wrong fit for the team at the time. Who knows, maybe they find a different way to use him and get him to be more effective; and in turn he gets into & stays in shape, plays with confidence and teaches a couple of things to our d corps about passing, vision, etc.

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04-13-2012, 04:09 PM
  #77
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He is extremmely soft and defensively weak.. Offensively, he is a decent setup man on the PP but the guy has no shot and is pretty average to rush the puck.. We are probably stuck with him for 2 other years, so hopefully he picks his game up and come back next camp more focussed..

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04-13-2012, 04:16 PM
  #78
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just reading whiskey's post made this thread worth it

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04-13-2012, 04:36 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by blueinmtl View Post
Glossed over? Hardly. His bad far, far outweighed his good on the team we had. If you couldn't see what a liability he was defensively, that's nonsense as much as anything else. And no, he did nothing to help us win. We got worse.

My biggest concern with him is the attitude. I think physical conditioning and the willingness to take hits is part of a necessary attitude for winning, in terms of a guy like Kaberle. No-one will ever mistake him for even being competent defensively, and yes, a lot of it was down to RC's amazing decision to pair him with Campoli. And no, you wouldn't want him fighting (did you make that up?) or throwing checks, seeing as his defensive timing is amateurish at best. But you do expect him to play with fire, look like he cares, lead by example, of which there were no signs. This also hurts when you are on a team as bad as we were.

As I've mentioned elsewhere he was absolutely the wrong fit for the team at the time. Who knows, maybe they find a different way to use him and get him to be more effective; and in turn he gets into & stays in shape, plays with confidence and teaches a couple of things to our d corps about passing, vision, etc.
Good idea, maybe we should make him a forward or put him in net. He has only been doing the same thing he does with us his entire career and been very successful at it, lets change it around. You obviously know better.

You sound like one of the many who ripped on MAB who turned the powerplay into a killing machine while making close to league minimum because the guy needed a defensive partner who could cover for him.

You want him to have some incredible attitude coming from a nightmare situation in Carolina walking into a disaster zone in habs land? Ya sure thing.

If you couldn't see the change in the powerplay and the fact that if it weren't for Subbans total loss of point shot we would have been much better than that speaks more about you and your lack of hockey knowledge than anything.

Funny how we could have had MAB who plays a similar game (more shot than pass) for a fraction of the price but people ran him out of town aswell.

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Old
04-13-2012, 04:40 PM
  #80
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Ha! Ha! Reading through this thread was a real side-splitter.

I'm sure Spacek being the club house jokester would have approved it himself.

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04-13-2012, 04:45 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Steve Shutt View Post
Here's the top 50 from 2011-12. By 2013-14 his 4.25M will probably place him around 70th (assuming every season 10 guys bump above him - for example Subban, Kulikov, McBain, etc)

1. Ehrhoff, Christian D BUF 29 10 $10,000,000
2. Chara, Zdeno D BOS 35 7 $8,500,000
3. Keith, Duncan D CHI 28 13 $8,000,000
4. Pronger, Chris D PHI 37 7 $7,600,000
5. Weber, Shea D NAS 26 1 $7,500,000
6. Campbell, Brian D FLA 32 8 $7,142,875
7. Seabrook, Brent D CHI 26 5 $7,000,000
8. Bieksa, Kevin D VAN 30 5 $7,000,000
9. Wisniewski, James D CLB 28 6 $7,000,000
10. Boyle, Dan D SAN 35 6 $6,666,666
11. Bouwmeester, Jay D CGY 28 5 $6,600,000
12. Phaneuf, Dion D TOR 27 6 $6,500,000
13. Redden, Wade D NYR 34 6 $6,500,000
14. Lidstrom, Nicklas D DET 41 1 $6,200,000
15. Doughty, Drew D LAK 22 8 $6,000,000
16. Markov, Andrei D MTL 33 3 $5,750,000
17. Ohlund, Mattias D TBL 35 7 $5,500,000
18. Komisarek, Mike D TOR 30 5 $5,500,000
19. Gonchar, Sergei D OTT 38 3 $5,500,000
20. Martin, Paul D PIT 31 5 $5,500,000
21. Gilbert, Tom D MIN 29 6 $5,000,000
22. Visnovsky, Lubomir D ANA 35 5 $5,000,000
23. Whitney, Ryan D EDM 29 6 $5,000,000
24. Hainsey, Ron D WIN 31 5 $5,000,000
25. Timonen, Kimmo D PHI 37 6 $5,000,000
26. Green, Mike D WAS 26 4 $5,000,000
27. Hamhuis, Dan D VAN 29 6 $5,000,000
28. Yandle, Keith D PHO 25 5 $4,750,000
29. Giordano, Mark D CGY 29 5 $4,600,000
30. Montador, Steve D CHI 32 4 $4,600,000
31. Schenn, Luke D TOR 22 5 $4,600,000
32. Liles, John-Michael D TOR 31 4 $4,550,000
33. Wideman, Dennis D WAS 29 4 $4,500,000
34. Pitkanen, Joni D CAR 28 3 $4,500,000
35. Volchenkov, Anton D NJD 30 6 $4,250,000
36. Byfuglien, Dustin D WIN 27 5 $4,250,000
37. Sekera, Andrej D BUF 25 4 $4,250,000
38. Ballard, Keith D VAN 29 6 $4,200,000
39. Streit, Mark D NYI 34 5 $4,100,000
40. Enstrom, Tobias D WIN 27 4 $4,000,000
41. Regehr, Robyn D BUF 31 5 $4,000,000
42. Meszaros, Andrej D PHI 26 6 $4,000,000
43. Burns, Brent D SAN 27 4 $4,000,000
44. Oduya, Johnny D CHI 30 3 $4,000,000
45. Zidlicky, Marek D NJD 35 3 $4,000,000
46. Michalek, Zbynek D PIT 29 5 $4,000,000
47. Jovanovski, Ed D FLA 35 4 $4,000,000
48. Kaberle, Tomas D MTL 34 3 $4,000,000
49. Spacek, Jaroslav D CAR 38 3 $3,833,333
50. Carle, Matt D PHI 27 4 $3,800,000
Just looking at 95% of those contracts makes me throw up in my mouth. I hope Buffalo is handicapped forever with that idiotic Ehrhoff contract, it disgusts me to see the dollars these people make, for what they deliver.

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04-13-2012, 04:54 PM
  #82
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i realize a lot of ppl hate this trade because the habs are 'stuck; with kaberle for 2 more yrs at 4+mil, but did anyone look at his actual stats since he arrive in MTL?

43gp 3g 19a 22pts -6 0.51pts/g

imo that is not so terrible. compared to some of those other overpaid dmen i can live with this.

Habs were desperate for some exp D during the season and kaberle was a panic move, but i think he is still a decent player.

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04-13-2012, 05:03 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Shutt View Post
Here's the top 50 from 2011-12. By 2013-14 his 4.25M will probably place him around 70th (assuming every season 10 guys bump above him - for example Subban, Kulikov, McBain, etc)

1. Ehrhoff, Christian D BUF 29 10 $10,000,000
2. Chara, Zdeno D BOS 35 7 $8,500,000
3. Keith, Duncan D CHI 28 13 $8,000,000
4. Pronger, Chris D PHI 37 7 $7,600,000
5. Weber, Shea D NAS 26 1 $7,500,000
6. Campbell, Brian D FLA 32 8 $7,142,875
7. Seabrook, Brent D CHI 26 5 $7,000,000
8. Bieksa, Kevin D VAN 30 5 $7,000,000
9. Wisniewski, James D CLB 28 6 $7,000,000
10. Boyle, Dan D SAN 35 6 $6,666,666
11. Bouwmeester, Jay D CGY 28 5 $6,600,000
12. Phaneuf, Dion D TOR 27 6 $6,500,000
13. Redden, Wade D NYR 34 6 $6,500,000
14. Lidstrom, Nicklas D DET 41 1 $6,200,000
15. Doughty, Drew D LAK 22 8 $6,000,000
16. Markov, Andrei D MTL 33 3 $5,750,000
17. Ohlund, Mattias D TBL 35 7 $5,500,000
18. Komisarek, Mike D TOR 30 5 $5,500,000
19. Gonchar, Sergei D OTT 38 3 $5,500,000
20. Martin, Paul D PIT 31 5 $5,500,000
21. Gilbert, Tom D MIN 29 6 $5,000,000
22. Visnovsky, Lubomir D ANA 35 5 $5,000,000
23. Whitney, Ryan D EDM 29 6 $5,000,000
24. Hainsey, Ron D WIN 31 5 $5,000,000
25. Timonen, Kimmo D PHI 37 6 $5,000,000
26. Green, Mike D WAS 26 4 $5,000,000
27. Hamhuis, Dan D VAN 29 6 $5,000,000
28. Yandle, Keith D PHO 25 5 $4,750,000
29. Giordano, Mark D CGY 29 5 $4,600,000
30. Montador, Steve D CHI 32 4 $4,600,000
31. Schenn, Luke D TOR 22 5 $4,600,000
32. Liles, John-Michael D TOR 31 4 $4,550,000
33. Wideman, Dennis D WAS 29 4 $4,500,000
34. Pitkanen, Joni D CAR 28 3 $4,500,000
35. Volchenkov, Anton D NJD 30 6 $4,250,000
36. Byfuglien, Dustin D WIN 27 5 $4,250,000
37. Sekera, Andrej D BUF 25 4 $4,250,000
38. Ballard, Keith D VAN 29 6 $4,200,000
39. Streit, Mark D NYI 34 5 $4,100,000
40. Enstrom, Tobias D WIN 27 4 $4,000,000
41. Regehr, Robyn D BUF 31 5 $4,000,000
42. Meszaros, Andrej D PHI 26 6 $4,000,000
43. Burns, Brent D SAN 27 4 $4,000,000
44. Oduya, Johnny D CHI 30 3 $4,000,000
45. Zidlicky, Marek D NJD 35 3 $4,000,000
46. Michalek, Zbynek D PIT 29 5 $4,000,000
47. Jovanovski, Ed D FLA 35 4 $4,000,000
48. Kaberle, Tomas D MTL 34 3 $4,000,000
49. Spacek, Jaroslav D CAR 38 3 $3,833,333
50. Carle, Matt D PHI 27 4 $3,800,000
There is a problem with this post. You are stating that Kaberle is cheap in a relative sense. His play is cheap in a relative sense.

There is no reason to brag to people that you spent less money for a clunker car when your neighbor didnt pay that much more for a much better car.

James Wiesniewski anyone? He should have been re-signed and Spacek should have played the last game as a Hab a few days ago.

Lafleur's Guy, your first post on this thread is a classic and definitely candidate for post of the year.

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Old
04-13-2012, 05:22 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There is a problem with this post. You are stating that Kaberle is cheap in a relative sense. His play is cheap in a relative sense.

There is no reason to brag to people that you spent less money for a clunker car when your neighbor didnt pay that much more for a much better car.

James Wiesniewski anyone? He should have been re-signed and Spacek should have played the last game as a Hab a few days ago.

Lafleur's Guy, your first post on this thread is a classic and definitely candidate for post of the year.
Somebody should just make a Troy MaClure thread. Some of the intros are great here.

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04-13-2012, 05:25 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There is a problem with this post. You are stating that Kaberle is cheap in a relative sense. His play is cheap in a relative sense.

There is no reason to brag to people that you spent less money for a clunker car when your neighbor didnt pay that much more for a much better car.

James Wiesniewski anyone? He should have been re-signed and Spacek should have played the last game as a Hab a few days ago.

Lafleur's Guy, your first post on this thread is a classic and definitely candidate for post of the year.

Do you ever overrate Wisniewski! Paying him his salary with the Blue Jackets would be wasteful.

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Old
04-13-2012, 05:37 PM
  #86
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I LOL'd at Troy McClure. That was a good one.

Kaberle's ok, but given that we had too few many soft D in the lineup this year, he certainly didn't help much defensively. It is amazing that this guy used to play top pairing minutes, because he certainly does not have the defensive skills for it. Offensively he did not spark the powerplay either, but he at least had some relative use there, and he can probably be useful next season.

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04-13-2012, 05:39 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
What are you talking about "took heat"? Everyone said they hated this trade when it happened! It was a river of tears about gauthier and the end of the world. It was so bad you would almost swear gauthier had to be anglophone.

I didn't mind the trade when it happened and I havn't changed my mind so far. The guy did what we brought him in to do and what he did his whole career. Just because we have zero supporting staff for him doesn't mean he isn't doing his job.

Next year when we find someone who can shoot the puck and our powerplay isn't garbage then he will probably pot close to 50 points. We can then decide to either move him for a nice pick or hold on to him. I like the trade, he is much better than spacek who was **** reguardless of who played with him.
That was funny! thanks for the laugh!

Kaberle is not Gauthier s worst move by any means. I think most (including me) hated the trade because of the numbers and cap room that a end of road player was eating up while being decent at best (not to mention the length of the engagement).


Oh, and hi, you may remember me as the guy unwilling to budge on the GM hiring criteria! You might have seen me on such page as Candidates for the GM position and Who should be our next coach.


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Old
04-13-2012, 05:54 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There is a problem with this post. You are stating that Kaberle is cheap in a relative sense. His play is cheap in a relative sense.

James Wiesniewski anyone? He should have been re-signed and Spacek should have played the last game as a Hab a few days ago.
I think his salary is very fair value for a guy that averages 40-50 points a season.

Wiesniewski had 27 points on a 7 million dollar contract.
Kaberle had 31 on a 4 million dollar contract

I know Kaberle played more games but Wis has a history of getting injured and has only once played more than 70 games in an NHL season.

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04-13-2012, 05:55 PM
  #89
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I hate the type of reasoning. So because the leafs screwed the pooch on Komisarek, its okay that Montreal screwed the pooch with Kaberle. It doesnt mean you want either on your team at 4 million, its that simple.
No such reasoning. There is a clamor in the posts that preceded this one suggesting we needed a tougher d than what Kaberle can bring. Not that I necessarily disagree but my comparison to Komisarek is cautionary in that be careful for what you wish for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
also, in terms relative to the rest of the league, Montreals PP rank actually dropped a few notches after Kaberle was acquired. So really, the rest of the league improved more than Montreal did over the course of the rest of the year.
I don't buy it. Show me the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Fact is Montreal finished the worst they have in how many years. I would say there were more players who "contributed" to the failure of this team then any positives they brought. Kaberle along with guys like Gomez, Bourque, Cammalleri and Kostitsyn when he was here, Campoli etc etc. Even the faithful Captain was nothing short of mediocre this year.
With the exception of Kostitsyn, most of the players you cite played in less than half the Habs games. It was a collective team malaise not bourne on the shoulders of a few.

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04-13-2012, 06:01 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There is a problem with this post. You are stating that Kaberle is cheap in a relative sense. His play is cheap in a relative sense.

There is no reason to brag to people that you spent less money for a clunker car when your neighbor didnt pay that much more for a much better car.

James Wiesniewski anyone? He should have been re-signed and Spacek should have played the last game as a Hab a few days ago.

Lafleur's Guy, your first post on this thread is a classic and definitely candidate for post of the year.
The guy who wants Wisneiwskis contract over Kaberle. Whining about Kaberle while the wiz is locked up for 5 more years and put out a whopping 27 points this year? You are the same guy who said we shouldn't have re-signed Markov. Funny how Markov came back, played well and you vanished like a ghost.

I am sure you will have changed your mind next season when the wind is blowing in the other direction. That seems like your m.o

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04-13-2012, 06:12 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
The guy who wants Wisneiwskis contract over Kaberle. Whining about Kaberle while the wiz is locked up for 5 more years and put out a whopping 27 points this year? You are the same guy who said we shouldn't have re-signed Markov. Funny how Markov came back, played well and you vanished like a ghost.

I am sure you will have changed your mind next season when the wind is blowing in the other direction. That seems like your m.o
There is more to playing defense in hockey than collecting assists.

Markov should not have been signed to a long term deal. Different than not signing Markov.

You make me laugh. I make a joke on the GM thread and now you are saying that's now my MO? Good job.

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04-13-2012, 06:15 PM
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Huh? The Kaberle trade was pretty much universally mocked and disliked.

I'm actually relatively happy with the trade because he did better than I expect stats-wise. He still seems to have lost the ability to play defense. Like Brian Burke took his defense goo before he let him leave Toronto and gave it to... no one on the Leafs.

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04-13-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
The guy who wants Wisneiwskis contract over Kaberle. Whining about Kaberle while the wiz is locked up for 5 more years and put out a whopping 27 points this year? You are the same guy who said we shouldn't have re-signed Markov. Funny how Markov came back, played well and you vanished like a ghost.

I am sure you will have changed your mind next season when the wind is blowing in the other direction. That seems like your m.o
27 points in 48 games... for the CBJ. Are you kidding me that's a very good offensive season for a defenseman, even for a forward.

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04-13-2012, 06:47 PM
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No such reasoning. There is a clamor in the posts that preceded this one suggesting we needed a tougher d than what Kaberle can bring. Not that I necessarily disagree but my comparison to Komisarek is cautionary in that be careful for what you wish for.



I don't buy it. Show me the numbers.



With the exception of Kostitsyn, most of the players you cite played in less than half the Habs games. It was a collective team malaise not bourne on the shoulders of a few.
Montreal was a 25th ranked PP i believe prior to the acquisition and finished 28th. Its not a small drop off but they did drop relative to the league.

The point was you say Kaberle can contribute, and what he can contribute is to a piss poor team. If you want your team better, you need better players. Kaberle is just one of many of these players you need to improve on. Just cause he contributed a little bit of offense on a crap team, it doesnt mean he was good.

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04-13-2012, 07:24 PM
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27 points in 48 games... for the CBJ. Are you kidding me that's a very good offensive season for a defenseman, even for a forward.
"On pace for" 46 points, considering Kaberle's supporters always use that phrase for Kaberle.

Or a .5625 PPG pace, which is higher than Kaberle's .51-ish pace.

Then you bring in intangibles like a better manager of the PP and a willingness to use his shot, and its obvious who's the better player.

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04-13-2012, 07:26 PM
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And if we negotiated with Wiz during the ****ing season, he might have given us a discount, but our hands were tied between him vs. Markov because of albatross contracts(GOMEZ)

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04-13-2012, 07:31 PM
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Awful trade. He was brought in to fix the PP. He didn't. We were extremely happy to FINALLY get rid of Spacek after this season. We now have to deal with Kaberle for some more years, a guy we have no need for 'cause we actually should try to build a tougher D to complement the other players we have. Awful deal. But hey people will try to convince you that the deal was good 'cause he put up some points. I guess people have lowered their expectations so much lately....

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04-13-2012, 07:36 PM
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And if we negotiated with Wiz during the ****ing season, he might have given us a discount, but our hands were tied between him vs. Markov because of albatross contracts(GOMEZ)
I still believe that they could have gotten Wiz for close to 1 Mil less per/ but that shipped sailed & thankfully so did the useless GM. At least we got a great pick & New GM on the way.

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04-13-2012, 08:41 PM
  #99
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i realize a lot of ppl hate this trade because the habs are 'stuck; with kaberle for 2 more yrs at 4+mil, but did anyone look at his actual stats since he arrive in MTL?

43gp 3g 19a 22pts -6 0.51pts/g

imo that is not so terrible. compared to some of those other overpaid dmen i can live with this.

Habs were desperate for some exp D during the season and kaberle was a panic move, but i think he is still a decent player.
I would be happy if some opposing NHL GM could look at those stats and share the sentiment. And actually, I don't think it's impossible that could happen either. So there's *some* hope on the Kaberle file.

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04-13-2012, 09:53 PM
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24Cups
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Montreal was a 25th ranked PP i believe prior to the acquisition and finished 28th. Its not a small drop off but they did drop relative to the league.
Kaberle was acquired a couple of weeks before the allstar game. Before the allstar game we had the worst overall PP% and after the allstar game finished middle of the pack.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/by...1&cut_type=141

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