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Revisiting the Kaberle-Spacek deal

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Old
04-13-2012, 09:00 PM
  #101
Whitesnake
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So if he's so great....it will surely be easy to trade him in the summer or during the draft right? Right? Or shouldn't we trade him 'cause he's so great, he's untouchable? I guess that's what it comes to. We're so used of being totally fleeced in deals that when a player actually put up some points on the board, he's considered a GREAT acquisition. Sad.

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04-13-2012, 09:14 PM
  #102
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So if he's so great....it will surely be easy to trade him in the summer or during the draft right? Right? Or shouldn't we trade him 'cause he's so great, he's untouchable? I guess that's what it comes to. We're so used of being totally fleeced in deals that when a player actually put up some points on the board, he's considered a GREAT acquisition. Sad.
Why should we trade him? Are we short on cap space? Are you spiting on 45 points while assuming 3rd pairing duties? Correctly surrounded Kaberle can be very useful.

This is Streit 2007-08 all over again. Sad indeed.


PS tape to tape passes: Kaberle = Markov = Desharnais

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Awful trade. He was brought in to fix the PP. He didn't. We were extremely happy to FINALLY get rid of Spacek after this season. We now have to deal with Kaberle for some more years, a guy we have no need for 'cause we actually should try to build a tougher D to complement the other players we have. Awful deal. But hey people will try to convince you that the deal was good 'cause he put up some points. I guess people have lowered their expectations so much lately....
You wrote: "... He was brought in to fix the PP. He didn't..."

I guess you did not read CGG's post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post

(...)

He actually did fix the power play. Most people choose to ignore that, but the PP was far better with Kaberle than without.

With Kaberle in the Lineup: 26-for-151, 17.2%
Without Kaberle in the Lineup: 17-for-150, 11.3%

But as always, everyone here will focus on the negatives, and point out that since Kaberle is "soft" then there's no place in the league for him.

(...)
That's more than a 50% increase btw.


PPS nobody called him "... GREAT...". Stop building straw man.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 04-13-2012 at 09:41 PM.
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04-13-2012, 09:27 PM
  #103
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I'm OK with this deal as long as Markov stays healthy,
Markov, Subban, Emelin, Gorges, Kaberle, Diaz.
hopefully Emelin will get better and become that shut down D we desperately need.
however if Markov gets injured we will be in trouble again.
I think Kaberle tied up a bit too much money in terms of being flexible down the road.

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04-13-2012, 09:42 PM
  #104
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He's a scrub, trade him. Bourque, Gomez and Weber too.

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Old
04-13-2012, 09:48 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Good idea, maybe we should make him a forward or put him in net. He has only been doing the same thing he does with us his entire career and been very successful at it, lets change it around. You obviously know better.

You sound like one of the many who ripped on MAB who turned the powerplay into a killing machine while making close to league minimum because the guy needed a defensive partner who could cover for him.

You want him to have some incredible attitude coming from a nightmare situation in Carolina walking into a disaster zone in habs land? Ya sure thing.

If you couldn't see the change in the powerplay and the fact that if it weren't for Subbans total loss of point shot we would have been much better than that speaks more about you and your lack of hockey knowledge than anything.

Funny how we could have had MAB who plays a similar game (more shot than pass) for a fraction of the price but people ran him out of town aswell.
Never mentioned MAB, don't know why you'd go there. Wasn't thinking of him tbh, considering their different styles of play & we could afford to carry a defensive liability like MAB when we had him.

Never inferred Kaberle should play goal or fight. Odd irrational points there. He was a pick up that was wrong for us at the time & RC paired him with a player whose weaknesses were too similar.

PP was better, did not argue that. Did not contribute to us winning more games or improving in the standings though; and for all Kaberle did well he did equally as many poor things. Again you can argue that he was always being put in a position to lose, considering his skill set; however if you interpret that as a desire to see him play goal, well, hey.

Why a veteran should be absolved of having a good attitude or hard work or leading by example, I have no idea.

Bizarre. Bad trade, he was pretty useless for us, did not improve the team.

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04-13-2012, 09:50 PM
  #106
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bad trade simple as that

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Old
04-14-2012, 02:58 AM
  #107
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i was ok with the trade then fully knowing what he would bring - both good and bad, but now that we are 'rebuilding', at least for a year, this deal is bad and completely unwanted. and he was not a 'disaster' as some would say, he came exactly as advertised

put him on third pairing duties with a decent partner and i believe you can isolate him enough to still make him useful at ES. and by decent, i don't mean campoli.

by the way, a lot of his points came on ES as secondary assists, which means he's still good at getting the puck out of his zone and putting his forwards in a good position to score. so there's always that...

and yes, the new GM should look at unloading him as soon as he can

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Old
04-14-2012, 10:11 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24Cups View Post
Kaberle was acquired a couple of weeks before the allstar game
Kabs was acquired in the 1st week of December I believe, and the all star game was at the end of jan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchy29 View Post
I'm OK with this deal as long as Markov stays healthy,
Markov, Subban, Emelin, Gorges, Kaberle, Diaz.
hopefully Emelin will get better and become that shut down D we desperately need.
however if Markov gets injured we will be in trouble again.
I think Kaberle tied up a bit too much money in terms of being flexible down the road.
Markov is the wild card and if he gets injured again that could likely mean either we rush one of the incoming D prospects like Beaulieu or Tinordi etc... or it could mean the GM would need to acquire help depending on how long they expected him to be out.

For me I'd love to somehow get 2 quality D's but don't see how the new GM can pull it off. If our depth going into next season (assuming we want to be a playoff team) looks something like this,

1 through 5 (Subban/Markov/Gorges/XXX/XXX)
6. Emelin
7. Diaz
8. Kabs
9. St-Denis
10. Weber

I'd feel much better depending on who the 2 additions were. As I said with Markov being the wild card it's going to be very hard to gauge where he will be at when October rolls around but if he's anything close to what he was pre injury then that's great news for us, if not then we are likely going to have big concerns on defense.

I like Emelin in a bottom pairing role, as a 5th or 6th

Diaz I liked what I saw and perhaps he could be a regular in the top 6 but I'm still not sold on him being a top 6 on a playoff team.

Kabs I like if he's as a PP specialist mainly, yes that's a lot to pay for a PP specialist but I don't trust him in the top 6 on a playoff bound team.

St-Denis would be a good depth D to have in Hamilton, I don't think waivers will be a problem. I think he would be a great partner for Beaulieu in Hamilton.

Weber I would send to Hamilton since I assume he has no value.

So the problem is what to do with the top 5. Subban imo is only going to get better so I have no concerns over his play and think he can handle being our #1. If Markov can shake off the rust and looks solid it would be huge for us but we'll see if he can handle it, if not I'm sure he would be a solid 4th or 5th if he's more a shell of his former self. Gorges I don't like on the top pairing as he has bring little offensively but of course is very solid in his own end. So having 3 of Subban, Markov and Gorges with Kabs/Diaz/Weber not getting top 6 ice time is a start imo.

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Old
04-14-2012, 11:21 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by 24Cups View Post
Kaberle was acquired a couple of weeks before the allstar game. Before the allstar game we had the worst overall PP% and after the allstar game finished middle of the pack.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/by...1&cut_type=141
..............and still managed to finish last in the East and are now stuck with two more years of an overpaid DMan who cannot play defense.

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04-14-2012, 11:39 AM
  #110
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To make a bad trade you have to give something. We gave an old wash up that nobody even wanted to trade a 7th round pick for a the deadline.

Kaberle is "meh" but he was on a production paste of around 45 points with us this season. It's not so bad that we can't hope to trade him before his contract ends and possibly get some kind of asset.

As for the PP, he's a good passer and we needed that so he helped. But the problem is that he's like Markov, he needs to play the set-up man on the left point to be at his best and with PK playing the trigger man on the left point, they weren't a good match...

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04-14-2012, 02:37 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by dutchy29 View Post
I'm OK with this deal as long as Markov stays healthy,
Markov, Subban, Emelin, Gorges, Kaberle, Diaz.
hopefully Emelin will get better and become that shut down D we desperately need.
however if Markov gets injured we will be in trouble again.
I think Kaberle tied up a bit too much money in terms of being flexible down the road.
True, there's time left on his contract, but it isn't as much of an anchor as Gomez's is or Cammalleri's was. Although I was unhappy to see AKost traded, his salary is removed from the books.

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04-15-2012, 11:36 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Bad, bad, bad trade. It stunk of desperation.


That.


And bad assessment of the team's needs.

The team needed (and still does) a LH shooter that plays the right point on the PP, and can get pucks to the net.

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04-16-2012, 08:11 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Pr3Va1L View Post
That.


And bad assessment of the team's needs.

The team needed (and still does) a LH shooter that plays the right point on the PP, and can get pucks to the net.
For all of his faults MAB was a great fit that year. He was inexpensive and quite frankly had more gumption in the defensive zone than Kaberle. You could count on an honest effort.

Maybe that PP shooter wasn't available but the Kaberle trade was described perfectly by you and the post you quoted.

Sure the Habs can always trade him but for a new GM coming in it would be nice if that salary and player was not on the roster right now. Just seems it would give more flexibility to repair this roster.

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04-16-2012, 10:59 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
For all of his faults MAB was a great fit that year. He was inexpensive and quite frankly had more gumption in the defensive zone than Kaberle. You could count on an honest effort.

Maybe that PP shooter wasn't available but the Kaberle trade was described perfectly by you and the post you quoted.

Sure the Habs can always trade him but for a new GM coming in it would be nice if that salary and player was not on the roster right now. Just seems it would give more flexibility to repair this roster.
My biggest issue with MAB is just that of utilization. He did his PP thing very well. I would have been happier had he been constrained to much more of a specialist role there than he ultimately was. My vague recollection is of ranting about some of the icetime he was getting later in the season and playoffs, situations where he shouldn't have been used that much by the coaching staff. You have to hope you don't *need* a MAB on your team at all... that you have more complete players who are also going to do fine on your PP. But in the event that there is a PP shortfall, I don't think there's any harm in a MAB fallback, if he's otherwise properly deployed.

Kaberle... I honestly don't see him helping the PP much. I know there are percentages before and after that show a swing. But honestly, I don't think we were going to be 11% all year no matter what. Some turnaround was bound to happen. I can't really find it in myself to give Kaberle any credit for that, just from observing the games, never mind the stats.

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04-16-2012, 11:15 AM
  #115
MooseOllini
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Worst trade since Ninima trade.

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04-16-2012, 11:18 AM
  #116
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Worst trade since Ninima trade.
You might be forgetting one there.

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04-16-2012, 11:37 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Kaberle... I honestly don't see him helping the PP much. I know there are percentages before and after that show a swing. But honestly, I don't think we were going to be 11% all year no matter what. Some turnaround was bound to happen. I can't really find it in myself to give Kaberle any credit for that, just from observing the games, never mind the stats.
You're not wrong -- Kaberle is a very good point man, but the Habs were generating scoring chances without him and were bound to start scoring. He helped, but it was an area the Habs didn't really need help in.

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04-16-2012, 04:44 PM
  #118
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You're not wrong -- Kaberle is a very good point man, but the Habs were generating scoring chances without him and were bound to start scoring. He helped, but it was an area the Habs didn't really need help in.
Most people realized thatthe Habs were not doing well on the PP this season. Perhaps you were thinking of a different year.

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04-16-2012, 07:02 PM
  #119
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You're not wrong -- Kaberle is a very good point man, but the Habs were generating scoring chances without him and were bound to start scoring. He helped, but it was an area the Habs didn't really need help in.
I think he's more like an "adequate" point man at this stage (although indeed used to be very good), but the turnaround also came with some better times from PK after his early funk (followed subsequently by a late-season funk again), but more importantly from the exclamation points the top line started to put on their seasons. Kaberle chipped in and got some points too, but I don't think he was a key or anything. There was an overall improvement independent of his presence. And then good movement with Markov, although I'm not sure the numbers will necessarily reflect how much better Markov makes things look either.

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04-16-2012, 07:57 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Revisiting this trade is like revisiting the Bates motel.

Don't drop the soap in the shower...

I like this Troy MaClure intro too. I should start all my threads like this.

Hi I'm Lafleurs Guy. You may remember me from such threads as "It's time to rebuild" and "It's time to rebuild NOW!" I like it.

All that being said, if you saw that this was a bad trade back then, good for you. You were absolutely right then and congrats on seeing it. I thought it was a disaster too btw. So I guess I'm two for three on being right this year as the Bourque deal also looks bad but Cole is about 2 billion times better than I thought he'd be. Can't win 'em all.
Cole great move ...we have the third ick for fk sakes ?

he played well ..we still stink ...bad move

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04-16-2012, 07:58 PM
  #121
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Cole great move ...we have the third ick for fk sakes ?

he played well ..we still stink ...bad move
Wha... what? Who teeched you how to spoke man? Please use real words.

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04-17-2012, 10:09 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Most people realized thatthe Habs were not doing well on the PP this season. Perhaps you were thinking of a different year.
I just understand that a power play that generates scoring chances but doesn't convert will invariably turn into a successful power play in the long run. Understanding "why" the Habs' PP was not doing well is rather important to figuring out whether Kaberle could help or not.

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04-17-2012, 10:10 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I think he's more like an "adequate" point man at this stage (although indeed used to be very good)
He's very good. We're just used to Markov, and Markov is arguably the best in the business.

The problem is that under Randy's bomb-from-the-point-with-bodies-in-front scheme, the power play's chance generation was basically cut in half, so that even when the finish returned, the overall success rate didn't significantly improve.

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04-17-2012, 10:27 AM
  #124
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-Spacek, sucks, but contract was expiring.
-Kaberle, still somewhat useful, but under contract for 2 more seasons.


So those who feel it was a good trade point to the PP improving. Which is great, but it improved from OMG it's a Pee-Wee PP to meh, it's ok for the AHL.

And, those that feel it was a horrendous trade point to the cap hits.



I am in the middle of this one. Kaberle had an off year, c'mon guys, he hadn't played past April in YEARS (gratuitous shot at the leafs). But his conditioning was off at the start and he was basically behind. He turned it around in Jan, but that was too late. He still has some value and if he plays sheltered (as in not against the top opposition) minutes and PP time, he's quite useful. Or at the veryleast tradable for an asset (Spacek really wasn't)

For those that continue to say to themselves...But, cap space!? Well, what are we to use it for? Will the player/s many here want going to be available in July? Couldn't they still be signed and Kaberle traded or even waived prior to July (because he's not on a 35+ contract like Spacek was) to make space.


It isn't the "worst trade ever" as some here like to think. See Ribero/Gomez trades and come back.

It wasn't the best either. It was a gamble by Gauthier who saw that a season where they miss the playoffs = a summer where he is looking for work. He tried, it didn't really work out. But there are many options out there, and all we had to give up was a 38yo injury prone Dman to try it out. It isn't like we gave up a top prospect (Gomez )

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:51 AM
  #125
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He's very good. We're just used to Markov, and Markov is arguably the best in the business.

The problem is that under Randy's bomb-from-the-point-with-bodies-in-front scheme, the power play's chance generation was basically cut in half, so that even when the finish returned, the overall success rate didn't significantly improve.
Hmm, well he wasn't "very good" in Boston. And some in Carolina wouldn't have been even so charitable as to call him "adequate". He was just "adequate" for us. But for sure, I remember some of his prime years in Toronto, and he was indeed very good then. I don't think Markov is *that* special... I'd call Markov "very good". And Kaberle in his prime was at/near that level too. But he has clearly lost something.

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