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Old
04-13-2012, 08:33 PM
  #76
dkehler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post


Of course, let's disregard the fact that he was a consensus top 15 d-man on the boards because the Thrashers let him free wheel and didn't need him to...

No. **** it. He was covering Buff the entire last season, I have a hard time naming 5 D-men who could do what he did last season. You claim that you watched the Thrashers games last season. Unless you had your eyes closed, you would have seen this. He is baby sitting Buff, and he will continue to do this until he is paired with an actual D-man or Buff decides to actually play D.

I'm not unreasonable, I can see the point of some people who wants to trade Toby, but this is ****ing ridiculous.
I don't know that that means all that much, seriously. I've seen just as many what I would consider "less knowledgeable" hockey fans on HF boards as any other. Probably a lot of people were looking at his statistics and listening to the glowing praise from Thrasher fans. I know what I saw last season and maybe it was just a bad season for Toby, but based on what I have seen, he was definitely and more than a little oversold.

Maybe he will get back to the mythical "pocket Lidstrom" someday, but maybe he won't. And I don't think he was all that successful in covering for Byfuglien. In fact, I've seen him pinch at the same time, making the situation worse. And Byfuglien actually showed significant improvement in decision-making as the year went on. Toby not so much.

I sincerely hope that the other GMs in the league value him as highly as some of the people here because I'd like to get a good player or two for him in trade.

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04-13-2012, 08:38 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkehler View Post
I don't know that that means all that much, seriously. I've seen just as many what I would consider "less knowledgeable" hockey fans on HF boards as any other. Probably a lot of people were looking at his statistics and listening to the glowing praise from Thrasher fans. I know what I saw last season and maybe it was just a bad season for Toby, but based on what I have seen, he was definitely and more than a little oversold.

Maybe he will get back to the mythical "pocket Lidstrom" someday, but maybe he won't. And I don't think he was all that successful in covering for Byfuglien. In fact, I've seen him pinch at the same time, making the situation worse. And Byfuglien actually showed significant improvement in decision-making as the year went on. Toby not so much.

I sincerely hope that the other GMs in the league value him as highly as some of the people here because I'd like to get a good player or two for him in trade.
People listening to Thrashers fans? Like that ever happened.

If you've only seen Enstrom this season, then you've basically only seen him at his worst.

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04-13-2012, 08:42 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkehler View Post
I don't know that that means all that much, seriously. I've seen just as many what I would consider "less knowledgeable" hockey fans on HF boards as any other. Probably a lot of people were looking at his statistics and listening to the glowing praise from Thrasher fans. I know what I saw last season and maybe it was just a bad season for Toby, but based on what I have seen, he was definitely and more than a little oversold.

Maybe he will get back to the mythical "pocket Lidstrom" someday, but maybe he won't. And I don't think he was all that successful in covering for Byfuglien. In fact, I've seen him pinch at the same time, making the situation worse. And Byfuglien actually showed significant improvement in decision-making as the year went on. Toby not so much.

I sincerely hope that the other GMs in the league value him as highly as some of the people here because I'd like to get a good player or two for him in trade.
Yeah... Thrashers fans wasn't known as the most knowledgeable fans in the league.

Once again, Toby spent the entire last season as the only defenseman on the ice when playing with Byfuglien. You know those times this season you thought for yourself "Wow, Dustin really sucks at playing D!"? Imagine thinking that all the time, every game, except for the times when you though for yourself "Wow, that's an amazing pinch by Buff!".

And about not being successful covering for Buff, the stats disagree with you. Even though everyone agrees that this was not a good year for Enström, look at the advanced stats Wpgpage posted in the roster report thread. It will tell you something. If you want basic stats, Toby was a +6 while Buff was a -8. They were paired with each other the entire season except when they were injured.

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04-13-2012, 08:44 PM
  #79
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I hope he rebounds next year.
I just didnt see anything special this year

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04-13-2012, 08:50 PM
  #80
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I certainly wouldn't consider myself an Enstrom hater. What I hate is that Enstrom and Buff are our # 1 pairing. Both have tremendous offensive abilities, but how do you contend with such an unconventional top pairing. Opponents are constently getting odd man rushes against them and man-handling us in our own end. Most games we are lucky to break even on a top line/top D pairing match up. The Jets don't have a strong enough team to make up for that. I just think Enstrom has more value. Other teams will want his skill set. I can't imagine a lot of team would want to add Buff and how he would disrupt what ever system they have.

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04-13-2012, 08:51 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by atl thrasher344 View Post
People listening to Thrashers fans? Like that ever happened.

If you've only seen Enstrom this season, then you've basically only seen him at his worst.
I hope so. But who knows if he's ever going to get back to his best again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post
Yeah... Thrashers fans wasn't known as the most knowledgeable fans in the league.

Once again, Toby spent the entire last season as the only defenseman on the ice when playing with Byfuglien. You know those times this season you thought for yourself "Wow, Dustin really sucks at playing D!"? Imagine thinking that all the time, every game, except for the times when you though for yourself "Wow, that's an amazing pinch by Buff!".

And about not being successful covering for Buff, the stats disagree with you. Even though everyone agrees that this was not a good year for Enström, look at the advanced stats Wpgpage posted in the roster report thread. It will tell you something. If you want basic stats, Toby was a +6 while Buff was a -8. They were paired with each other the entire season except when they were injured.
So how can that be, seriously? Obviously, if their plus minus is so different, they must have been on the ice at different times and with different players, no? They don't give Enstrom a plus and Byfuglien a minus on the same goal against if Enstrom makes a nice defensive play but Byfuglien somehow screws it up and they get scored on.

I deliberately withheld my judgment on Enstrom until after the season, in fairness to him. This season is all I have seen of him, so yes, that's what I base my opinion on. Maybe he will get the chance to prove me wrong next season and if he does, I will be glad. At this point, I think he's expendable if we can get a good return for him.

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04-13-2012, 09:01 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkehler View Post
I hope so. But who knows if he's ever going to get back to his best again?



So how can that be, seriously? Obviously, if their plus minus is so different, they must have been on the ice at different times and with different players, no? They don't give Enstrom a plus and Byfuglien a minus on the same goal against if Enstrom makes a nice defensive play but Byfuglien somehow screws it up and they get scored on.

I deliberately withheld my judgment on Enstrom until after the season, in fairness to him. This season is all I have seen of him, so yes, that's what I base my opinion on. Maybe he will get the chance to prove me wrong next season and if he does, I will be glad. At this point, I think he's expendable if we can get a good return for him.
Well, if Toby goes off the ice, replaced by for example Stuart, who is not as good defensively as he is, he may not be able to stop the other team from scoring on the great scoring chances that Buff gives up from time to time.

Remember this, Toby was not only better in the +/- stats than Buff, he was the 2nd best D-man on the team, while playing tough opponents.

I have to say, it's pretty interesting how many posters that are prepared to believe that Toby will never reach his amazing play again, while at the same time believing that this wasn't a career year for Zach.

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04-13-2012, 09:18 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post
Well, if Toby goes off the ice, replaced by for example Stuart, who is not as good defensively as he is, he may not be able to stop the other team from scoring on the great scoring chances that Buff gives up from time to time.

Remember this, Toby was not only better in the +/- stats than Buff, he was the 2nd best D-man on the team, while playing tough opponents.

I have to say, it's pretty interesting how many posters that are prepared to believe that Toby will never reach his amazing play again, while at the same time believing that this wasn't a career year for Zach.
Age is one factor, although Enstrom is by no means old, but Bogosian is basically just beginning his career. And Bogosian has all of the tools to be a complete defenceman, including size, toughness and a fanatical drive to improve (studying every one of his shifts on video). The sky is the limit for Bogosian, whereas Enstrom may have already peaked.

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04-13-2012, 09:27 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkehler View Post
Age is one factor, although Enstrom is by no means old, but Bogosian is basically just beginning his career. And Bogosian has all of the tools to be a complete defenceman, including size, toughness and a fanatical drive to improve (studying every one of his shifts on video). The sky is the limit for Bogosian, whereas Enstrom may have already peaked.
While that is possible, unless I'm mistaken, most d-men peak much later than their mid-to-late twenties.

I should make clear that I don't disregard Zachs great season, neither do I in any way hope that he will go back to his old ways next season. In fact, Zach is one of my favorite players on the team. But the thing is, he was AWFUL last year, and this could still be an odd year out. The thing that annoy me is that some people seem to be sure that this year is proof that Toby is on his way down while Zach is a future top d-man in the league. This may be true, only time will tell, but I don't think that people should be so quick to make up their minds about trading a former top d-man after one bad year.

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04-13-2012, 09:31 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post
While that is possible, unless I'm mistaken, most d-men peak much later than their mid-to-late twenties.

I should make clear that I don't disregard Zachs great season, neither do I in any way hope that he will go back to his old ways next season. In fact, Zach is one of my favorite players on the team. But the thing is, he was AWFUL last year, and this could still be an odd year out. The thing that annoy me is that some people seem to be sure that this year is proof that Toby is on his way down while Zach is a future top d-man in the league. This may be true, only time will tell, but I don't think that people should be so quick to make up their minds about trading a former top d-man after one bad year.
You raise some good points and maybe some of us including myself are too quick to judge him after just one season. I trust that Chevy will do what is best for the organization, whether that be to trade him or sign him.

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04-13-2012, 10:24 PM
  #86
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When Chevy says the Jets will get bigger I only hope that includes Enstrom's ticket out of Winnipeg. It is best to trade him while he has value and before he becomes a UFA.

I saw nothing special all season and he could fetch a decent return if we don't wait too long. Just my opinion.

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04-13-2012, 11:04 PM
  #87
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I don't get why anyone would want to move Enstrom unless another D game this way.
Has everyone forgot how we were struggling for awhile to have enough D in the fall.
What if a key guy like Bogo were lost for the season in early December
with a injury and Enstrom was not here anymore?

Buf Stuart
Hainsey Clitsome
Flood Postma

That is not exactly a all-star defence.


Last edited by sting13: 04-13-2012 at 11:05 PM. Reason: typo
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04-13-2012, 11:08 PM
  #88
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Ugh, I don't think I could handle both Clitsome AND Flood back next year.

I honest wouldn't if we waived both and replace them with Postma and Kulda.

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04-14-2012, 06:50 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sting13 View Post
I don't get why anyone would want to move Enstrom unless another D game this way.
Has everyone forgot how we were struggling for awhile to have enough D in the fall.
What if a key guy like Bogo were lost for the season in early December
with a injury and Enstrom was not here anymore?

Buf Stuart
Hainsey Clitsome
Flood Postma


That is not exactly a all-star defence.


Damn that's bad!

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04-14-2012, 08:40 AM
  #90
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Unbelievable what some people here say about Toby. The Story was the same all year. Those who haven't seen him play before this year, were all like "yeah well... he's not that special... he's too soft, he's too small, he isn't that good as a PP QB... I don't like his number... trade him for a bag of pucks".

Okay, nobody wanted to trade him for a bag of pucks ^^ but you can so easily tell if someone has watched the Thrashers or not just only by the opinion he's got on Toby. Everyone loves Bogo, right? Imagine he SUCKED the last two years. Toby was the best defender for this franchise for AT LEAST the last four years. That. Is. A. Fact.

"Okay maybe he was great, but this year, he was only good, not amazing. Maybe he never gets back to "pocket Lidstrom" ever again."

Imagine you have this player. A player who was amazing for, let's say, 3 years. He get's hurt for the first time since I think something like about five years. He misses 20 games, gets back and struggles a bit but nevertheless, still plays a good season. Not a great season, but still a good one. What is more likely to happen the next season? He stays only "good" or gets back to the way of playing he did for 80% of the time over the last 3-4 years. Just think about it logically. Whats more likely to happen? He hasn't had operations or something that would hold him down permanently.

Why the hell would you trade that player? He has done NOTHING to deserve those trade talks.

Maybe he had some problems with moving out of Atlanta. Could be. Toby has never lived somewhere else in NA than in Atlanta. He has to deal with A LOT of new pressure, because NOW he gets recognized. He never got recognized before. There was a time when he was in the top 5 for D in scoring over 2 years and STILL fans from teams that don't play the Thrashers regularly were like "Toby who? Nevermind. He's from Atlanta. Has to suck probably."

He's a great guy, never says something bad and is loyal as hell. He easily could have had wanted to get out of Atlanta to finally get the recognition and the winning team he'd deserve to get/be on.

You don't trade Toby unless someone overpays big or he tells you that he won't want to stay in Winnipeg for the future which he wouldn't say.

/thread

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04-14-2012, 09:07 AM
  #91
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If he doesn't sign an extension in the next while, he's going to need to be traded anyway.

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04-14-2012, 11:16 AM
  #92
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What part of that the team is far too small and far too soft do some people here fail to fathom? The team is now also employing a system that requires the d-men to work the puck up the ice ASAP in vertical lines northward versus the clearly more east/west and more patient style that is glaringly Enstrom's natural want.

In summation, they need to get much bigger, and they need their d-men to work the puck up the ice vertically and quickly on a consistent basis. Being able to properly utilize assets is a big part of this game. This particular asset is perhaps more valuable elsewhere. It is not at all a case of not liking the player, nor is it a case of not understanding the game, but rather, it is a case of some simply having differing visions of how a team should be structured. Moving this asset could enable change in a few different areas, especially if he is even remotely as valuable to other teams as some here apparently believe.

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04-14-2012, 11:38 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
What part of that the team is far too small and far too soft do some people here fail to fathom? The team is now also employing a system that requires the d-men to work the puck up the ice ASAP in vertical lines northward versus the clearly more east/west and more patient style that is glaringly Enstrom's natural want.

In summation, they need to get much bigger, and they need their d-men to work the puck up the ice vertically and quickly on a consistent basis. Being able to properly utilize assets is a big part of this game. This particular asset is perhaps more valuable elsewhere. It is not at all a case of not liking the player, nor is it a case of not understanding the game, but rather, it is a case of some simply having differing visions of how a team should be structured. Moving this asset could enable change in a few different areas, especially if he is even remotely as valuable to other teams as some here apparently believe.
As the Talking Heads said " Stop Making Sense "

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04-14-2012, 12:16 PM
  #94
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I personally like Toby, I would trade buff long before him. But you can't argue the fact that the Jet's played their best hockey of the year when he was out of the lineup due to injury in december. Whether the december was just a aboration or not it makes for a interesting argument.

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04-14-2012, 12:20 PM
  #95
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Look guys your all wrong lets just ask Chuck Duboff what Claude Noel thinks about him then well know forsure what the plan is!!!

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04-30-2012, 12:10 PM
  #96
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canucks fan here.

someone on our board proposed a three way WPG-TB-VAN trade revolving around us getting enstrom, TB getting luongo, and you guys getting brett connolly and something else.

i'm just curious about your perspective, not on that trade specifically (which seems far-fetched), but in who is touchable and untouchable on your D.

from my perspective as an outsider, it seems like enstrom is your best player, even though he seems to have still not yet fully rebounded from his '11 injury.

but i'm really interested in bogosian. he was much better this year than last year, obviously. do you think he's primed to make the leap like pietrangelo did, and is he gettable at all? seems like he's the only real physical presence in your top four, so the asking price would be high.

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04-30-2012, 12:14 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
canucks fan here.

someone on our board proposed a three way WPG-TB-VAN trade revolving around us getting enstrom, TB getting luongo, and you guys getting brett connolly and something else.

i'm just curious about your perspective, not on that trade specifically (which seems far-fetched), but in who is touchable and untouchable on your D.

from my perspective as an outsider, it seems like enstrom is your best player, even though he seems to have still not yet fully rebounded from his '11 injury.

but i'm really interested in bogosian. he was much better this year than last year, obviously. do you think he's primed to make the leap like pietrangelo did, and is he gettable at all? seems like he's the only real physical presence in your top four, so the asking price would be high.
I would say that Bogosian is untouchable, while Enstrom could be had for the right price.

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04-30-2012, 12:16 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
canucks fan here.

someone on our board proposed a three way WPG-TB-VAN trade revolving around us getting enstrom, TB getting luongo, and you guys getting brett connolly and something else.

i'm just curious about your perspective, not on that trade specifically (which seems far-fetched), but in who is touchable and untouchable on your D.

from my perspective as an outsider, it seems like enstrom is your best player, even though he seems to have still not yet fully rebounded from his '11 injury.

but i'm really interested in bogosian. he was much better this year than last year, obviously. do you think he's primed to make the leap like pietrangelo did, and is he gettable at all? seems like he's the only real physical presence in your top four, so the asking price would be high.
IMO, Bogosian is ready to take the next step into Pietrangelo company. So, in my eyes he is not available without a team mortgaging their future.

I like the concept of the Jets getting a young guy like Connolly back for Enstrom, but I think we would need something extra to take on some risk as Connolly has not fully proven himself in the NHL, and I think Enstrom carries a lot of value in the league.

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04-30-2012, 12:20 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
but i'm really interested in bogosian. he was much better this year than last year, obviously. do you think he's primed to make the leap like pietrangelo did, and is he gettable at all? seems like he's the only real physical presence in your top four, so the asking price would be high.

Oh hello! I agree with what was said above. Generally agreed 'round Jets parts that Bogosian is the most untouchable guy on the team. Young, made huge strides turning his game around, really loves living in Winnipeg (which has to be part of the equation for Winnipeg) and is shaping up to be a real emerging leader in the room. I'd be willing to bet he spends almost all of his career here.

Opinions on Enstrom are really divided in our fanbase. Many of us feel that Enstrom would be available now if the price was right, i.e. some help up-front.

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04-30-2012, 12:28 PM
  #100
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I know but they are both softer/offensive players .... Who is going to go to get postma in though on team that lacks size and toughness ? Not Staurt or Bogo or Buff or Hainsey. Unless they bring in Postma as a 6-7th but I don't think they will.

Look I am not a Tobay Hater I just think to get Postma in, if they think he's ready and if you could improve up front Toby is the logical choice to move.
From the little bit I have watched Postma in these AHL playoffs I don't think his offensive game will translate into the NHL and defensively he is pretty weak there may be a fit for him on a solid defence first team but I don't see him ever playing for the Jets obviously just my opinion.

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