EDIT: to be honest, I really wish I had more time to really complete a bio on Irvin and to see if by some fluke he played another position. In a vaccuum, I see very little seperating him from Smokey Harris, and in all honesty I think Irvin is probably better (Harris is of course more valuable as a known winger). Dreak do you have any idea why Harris isn't in the HHOF (as in, is there a Bernie Morris-type of situation here)?
If you're looking at offense, Harris has about twice the resume.
If you're looking at other things, I honestly don't know much about Irvin. We know Harris was definately physical, and he was probably pretty decet defensively. Does Irvin bring better non-offensive things? Not likely (though I'm not sure)
As fo the HHOF, I'm not sure why he's not in. If I had to guess, he's just not good enough. Like Eddie Oatman or Bernie Morris, or even many others, you don't have to be in the HHOF to be a good 2nd liner.
If you're looking at other things, I honestly don't know much about Irvin. We know Harris was definately physical, and he was probably pretty decet defensively. Does Irvin bring better non-offensive things? Not likely (though I'm not sure)
As fo the HHOF, I'm not sure why he's not in. If I had to guess, he's just not good enough. Like Eddie Oatman or Bernie Morris, or even many others, you don't have to be in the HHOF to be a good 2nd liner.
Do those stats for Irvin count hIs time in the WHL too?
One difference is that Irvin was usually the driving force of his team's offense, while Harris had his best years with Cyclone Taylor
Do those stats for Irvin count his time in the WHL too?
Yes.
Quote:
One difference is that Irvin was usually the driving force of his team's offense, while Harris had his best years with Cyclone Taylor
Well, actually,Cyclone Taylor's big run of dominance started in 1913-14, and ended in 1918-19. Smokey Harris only played with Tayor for the first and last years of that run. The middle four seasons were spend in Portland.
Harris did play with Cyclone Taylor for about 5 seasons, but during that time, Taylor only outscored Harris twice.
Well, actually,Cyclone Taylor's big run of dominance started in 1913-14, and ended in 1918-19. Smokey Harris only played with Tayor for the first and last years of that run. The middle four seasons were spend in Portland.
Harris did play with Cyclone Taylor for about 5 seasons, but during that time, Taylor only outscored Harris twice.
Well it's very clear that Harris will have a lot more finishes because Irvin in the middle of his career didn't play professionally for about a 5 year stretch.
Do we think it's not only possible, but also likely that Taylor's point finishes aren't necessarily indicative of his play, given the way assist totals were counted back then? Taylor was primarily a playmaker, so it wouldn't be surprising for Harris to have out scored him.
Well it's very clear that Harris will have a lot more finishes because Irvin in the middle of his career didn't play professionally for about a 5 year stretch.
Do we think it's not only possible, but also likely that Taylor's point finishes aren't necessarily indicative of his play, given the way assist totals were counted back then? Taylor was primarily a playmaker, so it wouldn't be surprising for Harris to have out scored him.
How much value to you give Irvin for years he didn't play? Some people will give value to Irvin for the years he didn't play pro. The same people will also give Alf Smith more value for the years he didn't play.
Assists in the PCHA were recorded at a significantly higher rate than the NHA and NHL.
The point, however, was not to try to say that Harris was better than Cyclone. The point was to show that Harris did not leach off Taylor's scoring. Taylor only outscored Harris as a linemate twice, so at most you can question a 4th and a 9th on Harris's resume. All the other totals were either higher that Taylor's totals or without Taylor completely.
Goaltending – While I don’t think anyone would call Brodeur vs Benedict a mismatch, it’s certainly a definitive advantage for Rogle. Goaltending is always a major factor in the play-offs, so it’s nice to have the edge there
Offensive Punch – As discussed earlier, Rogle has all of the offensive game-breakers in this series. With Forsberg, Stewart, and Kovalchuk, we’ll have at least three players who are more dangerous than any of Hamilton’s forwards. Foyston is a little more debatable, but I think his offense is still slightly better than Gilmour’s.
Offensive Depth – The fact that Forsberg, Stewart, Kovalchuk, and Foyston are spread all through my line-up, it makes is very difficult to key on one guy or one line. That makes Rogle very difficult to shut down.
Physical Presence – I see this series going at least 6 or 7 games regardless of which side wins. With a significant edge in physical play, Rogle is going to be able to wear down, and maybe even intimidate Hamilton as the series progresses. With Forsberg, Nolan, Stewart, Harris, Smith, Leswick, Peca, Sullivan, and Goldsoworthy, we're loaded with toughness on every line.
Dreakmur, are you planning on just rolling 4 lines? I'm trying to understand how Kovalchuk will be a factor
My 4th line will be playing more than most - probably close to 10 minutes of even strength. With such a strong 4th line, it only makes sense to use them. An additional advantage would be that my top 2 lines get to stay much more fresh, which will allow them to play more aggressively without wearing themselves down.
In addition to that 4th line role, Kovalchuk will play a huge role on the PP. He'll play 1st unit, and also play a little bit on the 2nd unit. His time on the second unit would depend on a few factors, but as long as he's got the legs, and it can reasonably be expected that we can get him off before the PP is over, he'll probably take at least some time on the second unit.
Also, as I said before, Kovalchuk will play spot duty on the top lines. For offensive face-offs where the opponent is vunerable, I'll load up a line. Those vulnerable times woulld be after icings, when they can't change, or when they have a weaker line or defense pair on the ice. This will also be done when I need a goal. I figured that would be about 2-3 shifts per game.
Maybe an ice time chart would help?
Name
ES
PP
SH
Total
Peter Forsberg
13
4
1
18
Frank Foyston
13
3
1
17
Owen Nolan
11
3
0
14
Nels Stewart
13
4
0
17
Smokey Harris
13
3
0
16
Alf Smith
13
4
0
17
Mike Peca
10
0
4
14
Tony Leswick
10
0
4
14
Johnny Pierson
10
0
2
12
Red Sullivan
10
0
2
12
Ilya Kovalchuk
12
5
0
17
Bill Goldsworthy
10
0
0
10
TOTAL
138
26
14
178
Name
ES
PP
SH
Total
Nicklas Lidstrom
18
4
4
26
Larry Murphy
18
3
2
23
Harvey Pulford
16
0
4
20
Teppo Numminen
16
0
2
18
Kevin Hatcher
12
2
0
14
Wade Redden
12
0
2
14
TOTAL
92
9
14
115
As you can see, Forsberg, Stewart, Foyston, ad Kovalchuk get the big time offensive minutes. At the same time, none of them is approaching the 20 minute mark, so they aren't being played into exhaustion either. Alf Smith also gets a lot of ice time clearing room and working the corners for those offensive guys.
-Coaching, coaching, coaching: Dick Irvin far surpasses Trotz here in all capacities. Even with Rogle being the home team, I expect Irvin to get the better of the matchups in this series.
-Goaltending: a close, but definitive edge to Rogle. Benedict though steps his game up in the playoffs, and was considered the best money goalie of his generation.
-Defensemen: I feel strongly that I have the edge defensively here. His defense fits his team well though with the puck movers and he will get more offense from his blue line. But the defensive ability of my defensemen will help me get the matchup edge in this series, which we've already discussed in depth for what each of our goals were as far as that this series.
-Forwards: His forward talent is inarguably stronger than mine scoring. His team has a lot of firepower. Again though, I expect to get the good end of the matchup game matching my strong defensive forwards against his offense
-This series is going to be a long, tough, battling physcial series. We'll see who comes out on top soon enough I guess!
-Coaching, coaching, coaching: Dick Irvin far surpasses Trotz here in all capacities. Even with Rogle being the home team, I expect Irvin to get the better of the matchups in this series.
-Goaltending: a close, but definitive edge to Rogle. Benedict though steps his game up in the playoffs, and was considered the best money goalie of his generation.
-Defensemen: I feel strongly that I have the edge defensively here. His defense fits his team well though with the puck movers and he will get more offense from his blue line. But the defensive ability of my defensemen will help me get the matchup edge in this series, which we've already discussed in depth for what each of our goals were as far as that this series.
-Forwards: His forward talent is inarguably stronger than mine scoring. His team has a lot of firepower. Again though, I expect to get the good end of the matchup game matching my strong defensive forwards against his offense
-This series is going to be a long, tough, battling physcial series. We'll see who comes out on top soon enough I guess!
Good luck guys.
Only thing I would argue is the defensemen advantage. I think it's pretty even, maybe even a slight edge to Rogle.
1st Pairing: Doug Harvey-Tex Evans vs. Nicklas Lidstom-Larry Muprhy
-Harvey is slightly ahead of Lidstrom
-Murphy and Evans is a complete mismatch
-Edge on this most important pairing goes to Rogle
Eddie Gerard-Ott Heller vs. Harvey Pulford-Teppo Numminen
-Gerard is defintely better than Pulford, but it's no mismatch
-Heller and Numminen are about even
-Edge here goes to Hamilton
Glen Harmon-Ed Van Impe vs. Wade Redden-Kevin Hatcher
-Hatcher is definately better than Harmon
-Redden is also defnatel better than Van Impe
-Edge goes to Rogle.
I think it's tough to argue either team has a significant advantage either way. If you had to call a winner, wouldn't you give it to the team with the edge on the 1st pair? If not, then the one with 2/3 better pairs?
Good luck vecens. It was nice to have a fun debate that didn't get too recidulous or heated.
I need to ask, what makes Jack Evans a suitable first pairing guy? I think he's extremely out of place, even if it's with Doug Harvey. He should have a better partner than Evans.
I need to ask, what makes Jack Evans a suitable first pairing guy? I think he's extremely out of place, even if it's with Doug Harvey. He should have a better partner than Evans.
If you read through the thread, I'm using him as a top 4 guy particularly for this matchup, as I'm going to try to get Harvey and Evans out against the Stewart line as much as possible. That line is one of the best corner and physical lines in the draft. I'm putting Evans with Harvey to utilize his strength and defensive skill against that line. He is strong enough defensively in that regard to make him adequate there.
I could have put Gerard with him to make a sufficient normal "top pairing" but I wanted Gerard available to play against the Forsberg unit. I'm a pretty big advocate of splitting my top two defensemen. Your next question might be "Why not Heller?" I wanted Heller to be paired with Gerard because Heller was very good at getting people out of the slot, and in case that line gets matched up against the Stewart line at any point, I wanted a person with ability to match up with Stewart, as opposed to tasking Gerard with it.
Oh I think its even as far as the "Defenseman" matchup Dreak. I just meant the actual defensive skill. Harmon is certainly better than Hatcher defensively. Van Impe and Redden are pretty even there. Heller is better than Numminen defensively. I have no idea how to quantify the actual defensive ability of Evans vs. Murphy. Such different skill sets.
Your defensemen have other skills that even them up, especially their puck moving skill and mobility. I was strictly speaking about "defensive ability."
Oh I think its even as far as the "Defenseman" matchup Dreak. I just meant the actual defensive skill. Harmon is certainly better than Hatcher defensively. Van Impe and Redden are pretty even there. Heller is better than Numminen defensively. I have no idea how to quantify the actual defensive ability of Evans vs. Murphy. Such different skill sets.
Your defensemen have other skills that even them up, especially their puck moving skill and mobility. I was strictly speaking about "defensive ability."
If you read through the thread, I'm using him as a top 4 guy particularly for this matchup, as I'm going to try to get Harvey and Evans out against the Stewart line as much as possible. That line is one of the best corner and physical lines in the draft. I'm putting Evans with Harvey to utilize his strength and defensive skill against that line. He is strong enough defensively in that regard to make him adequate there.
I could have put Gerard with him to make a sufficient normal "top pairing" but I wanted Gerard available to play against the Forsberg unit. I'm a pretty big advocate of splitting my top two defensemen. Your next question might be "Why not Heller?" I wanted Heller to be paired with Gerard because Heller was very good at getting people out of the slot, and in case that line gets matched up against the Stewart line at any point, I wanted a person with ability to match up with Stewart, as opposed to tasking Gerard with it.
Yeah that's fair, he's just underwhelming as a first unit guy.
