And for the record, the hardest Gretzky record to beat, bar none, end of discussion, is 11 100 assist seasons. There's no comparison. Yes, it's hard to lead the league in assists 16 times, but there's one guarantee; someone will, every year, lead the league in assists. However, getting 100 assists in a season? Only done 13 times TOTAL. And 11 of them were Wayne's. It would take a lot of convincing for someone to show me why a different record is harder. Orr and Mario did the impossible. They were too good. There will never, EVER be another Orr or Mario. And combined they did it twice. Wayne did it eleven times.
I view 16 seasons leading the league in assists as harder because it's not based on the scoring level in the game
there could easily be rule changes at some point in the future that drastically increase the scoring level and make 100 assists a lot less impressive
16 seasons leading the league in assists? unaffected by scoring level,and the talent pool increasing actually makes it harder and harder as well
Yea, he was absolutely ridiculous. And people have the audacity to suggest Gretzky wasn't the GOAT.
His vision was just incredible
Not so much that Gretzky wasn't a great player, but when factoring in era and how amazing Bobby Orr was, it's not an insult to think Gretzky isn't the GOAT ahead of Orr.
Not forgetting that Orr was a defenseman and hence on the lower order of Hart consideration. Otherwise he very well could have captured 7-8 Harts, in a shorter career that speaks volumes.
Yeah, you might be rick, ricky0034. That's a good point. Based on TODAY'S game, that would be the hardest record, but you're right. The game might change to the point where a 4th line grinder scores 30 goals a season, you never know. I just personally don't see the scoring level increasing to that point. Both of those records, I'd say, are impossible.
Not so much that Gretzky wasn't a great player, but when factoring in era and how amazing Bobby Orr was, it's not an insult to think Gretzky isn't the GOAT ahead of Orr.
Not forgetting that Orr was a defenseman and hence on the lower order of Hart consideration. Otherwise he very well could have captured 7-8 Harts, in a shorter career that speaks volumes.
It is arguable that Orr was superior to Gretzky as a talent, but being the GOAT has to factor in longevity, records, awards, championships, etc.. Gretzky is the complete package.
It's not Orr's fault that his career was ended so abruptly, but that is what happened.
It's gotta be 1.921 PPG in a career...There are soooo many arguments against it happening again: More injuries nowadays, scoring way down, salary cap=less good teammates, way better goalies, the list goes on.
Considering Gretzky was primarily a playmaker, his assist records are a lot more untouchable than his goalscoring records ... 16 seasons leading the league in assists is insane.
It is arguable that Orr was superior to Gretzky as a talent, but being the GOAT has to factor in longevity, records, awards, championships, etc.. Gretzky is the complete package.
It's not Orr's fault that his career was ended so abruptly, but that is what happened.
This is subjective.
It's the same reason why I have Super Mario ahead of Gretzky. Their stats on a game by game basis are comparable, and the same goes for playoffs, but Mario missed much of his prime and had stellar seasons in a much lower scoring era (95-96).
Meanwhile Bobby Hull is still the game's greatest goal scorer.
It's subjective.
I don't think anyone has argued Gretzky did not have the best career. There's some Howe supporters but they are far and few between and Howe didn't have the same level of dominance though his longevity is unmatched.
At the end of the day, the GOAT in any sport is subjective.
Even in the NBA where everyone views Michael Jordan as the GOAT, I for one have Wilt Chamberlain at #1.
It's subjective.
Come to think of it, the only sport I believe that has a near universal GOAT is Jerry Rice as an NFL WR ( NFL isn't judged on entire teams but by positions ).
In that regard, I suppose we do have a universal GOAT in the NHL in that Bobby Orr is the GOAT defenseman.
That would put Gretzky in GOAT forward and he has a lot of pull in that group YET, Mario Lemieux is still by a substantial amount of people held to be better.
Hell on HFboards where most members are relatively young like me ( or younger ), about 30% of votes in Gretzky vs. Lemieux debates are for Lemieux.
So it's not a travesty for one to sat Gretzky isn't GOAT.
Baseball has some disgusting records that have stood far longer than Gretzky's. Babe Ruth still holds the single season record for slugging percentage, he set it in 1920.....
And for the record, the hardest Gretzky record to beat, bar none, end of discussion, is 11 100 assist seasons. There's no comparison. Yes, it's hard to lead the league in assists 16 times, but there's one guarantee; someone will, every year, lead the league in assists. However, getting 100 assists in a season? Only done 13 times TOTAL. And 11 of them were Wayne's. It would take a lot of convincing for someone to show me why a different record is harder. Orr and Mario did the impossible. They were too good. There will never, EVER be another Orr or Mario. And combined they did it twice. Wayne did it eleven times.
This. Plus Gretzky's 11 seasons were all consecutive, making it even harder.
Really, ALL Gretzky's assist records are unbeatable, IMO. 163 is 49 better than the next highest player, and that was Lemieux. Even Gretzky himself never broke 140 other than that season. His career assists are better than anyone else's career points. A new player would have to high nearly 100 assists a year, every year, for 20 years, to break his career assist record. It's almost unfathomable.
He was a joy to watch playing for my Oilers in the 80's, heck in those days he was the salary cap, 1 mil a year anyone else asking for that kind of money got laughed out of the GM's office, Things started to spiral out of control after he got traded to LA and had a clause in his contract that made him the highest paid player in the league.
I voted none of his records would be broken, I watched him achieve most of those
It's gotta be 1.921 PPG in a career...There are soooo many arguments against it happening again: More injuries nowadays, scoring way down, salary cap=less good teammates, way better goalies, the list goes on.
None of the above was my answer. Never say never especially with Crosby back and seemingly 100%. Still those records look like they'll be impossible to break.
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Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
Wayne's playoff totals are the easiest to beat. He played 208 playoff games.
Nick Lidstrom played his 260th last night. Chelios hit 266. Its conceivable that a player with longevity (20ish years) and that plays on a perennial contender (i.e. mid-90s Wings till now) could hit 250+ games. Lidstrom will likely retire with 275+. A player like Crosby, if healthy, could hit 382 points in 260ish games.
Its still near impossible to beat, but its certainly the easiest to beat.
92 goals is beatable. Several people have come close.
No one has even approached his 163 assist season though. The most anyone besides Gretzky had was a peak Lemieux at 114.
So basically Gretzky's best is 1.5 times better than any one to ever play's best.
Henrik Sedin led the league with 67 assists this past year. So take his production and times it by 2.5 and you have Gretzky.
Gretzky hit 67 assists before Christmas.
Actually, I take that back. His 16 years leading the league in assists is the most impressive. The next highest is 5. Lemieux only did it 3 times.
Lidstrom and Chelios rank 1 and 2 on the all-time playoff games played list. Even if a forward could match that total games played they would still have to score at nearly a 1.5ppg pace to match Gretzky. On top of that the top 5 all time playoff scorers were from the Edmonton Oilers glory years and all had cup final runs with other teams. You are looking at a player having to be on 4+ cup winning teams on the highest scoring team all time to reach those totals.
None of the above was my answer. Never say never especially with Crosby back and seemingly 100%. Still those records look like they'll be impossible to break.
Crosby has absolutely nothing to do with Gretzky's records. He will never brake a single major record that Gretzky set. Too much time missed already. Or, what do you think he has chance to do?
Sorry, you'll excuse me if I take Gretzky's expertise on the matter over yours.
and Gretzky has said Sidney Crosby will beat his records, lets take his word on it shall we?
I agree with the other poster, all things considered the 11 consecutive years leading assists. It's simple logic really, 11 years leadings the assists category would mean staying injury-free for 11 years, while having no off years, dealing with the probable change in various linemates, and simply staying in your prime for 11 years.
50 in 50, 50 in 44 has been done, 11 years leading the assist category hasn't even been close to touched.
It's the same reason why I have Super Mario ahead of Gretzky. Their stats on a game by game basis are comparable, and the same goes for playoffs, but Mario missed much of his prime and had stellar seasons in a much lower scoring era (95-96).
It is always subjective, but I think hockey's distinction between 1 and 2 is one of the largest in sports.
Lemieux and Orr were transcendent talents that had transcendent careers. Gretzky was a transcendent talent that had the career of a GOAT. It is not Lemieux's or Orr's fault they didn't last as long as Gretzky, but it is what it is.
Furthermore, I think the fact that Gretzky outperformed Lemieux in basically everything during their coincidental prime years takes a lot away from Lemieux being the GOAT.
If Lemieux or Orr had the longevity of Gretzky, we'd definitely being having an epic debate for the GOAT on our hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsFan95
Meanwhile Bobby Hull is still the game's greatest goal scorer.
It's subjective.
I don't think anyone has argued Gretzky did not have the best career. There's some Howe supporters but they are far and few between and Howe didn't have the same level of dominance though his longevity is unmatched.
At the end of the day, the GOAT in any sport is subjective.
Even in the NBA where everyone views Michael Jordan as the GOAT, I for one have Wilt Chamberlain at #1.
LeBron James (as much as people hate him) is arguably a better talent than MJ. Nobody would put LeBron over MJ as the GOAT for the simple reason that MJ had it all. LeBron's missing the team success.
Similarly, Lemieux and Orr have the talent but are missing the longevity and level of awards that Gretzky has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsFan95
It's subjective.
Come to think of it, the only sport I believe that has a near universal GOAT is Jerry Rice as an NFL WR ( NFL isn't judged on entire teams but by positions ).
In that regard, I suppose we do have a universal GOAT in the NHL in that Bobby Orr is the GOAT defenseman.
That would put Gretzky in GOAT forward and he has a lot of pull in that group YET, Mario Lemieux is still by a substantial amount of people held to be better.
I think the stuff you brought up about Rice is interesting. I can see a Gretzky/Rice and Lemieux/Moss parallel. Lemieux/Moss were both physical monstrosities with a ridiculous amount of talent. Gretzky/Rice were both not flashy and it defied logic that they put up the stats that they did. It might be possible that Lemieux/Moss were better players than Gretzky/Rice (although that is extremely debatable). Gretzky/Rice had the complete package. Everyone generally agrees that Rice is the GOAT and I feel that Gretzky should be regarded the same way.
It seems like people despise Edmonton or like Pittsburgh so they want to put Orr or Lemieux above Gretzky, but I just can't get the reasoning to do so.
Most of those look completely impossible. The most ''easily'' beatable ones would be the trophies, since realistically a really dominant player could win manage the Hart Rosses and especially Hart. 16 season leading in assists would be extremely hard but its possible. The points totals however? Not a chance. I would say the hardest must be ''1.921 Points Per Game In 1,000+ Career Games'' since when you get that you must have had a couple 200 point seasons, and probably achieved most of those records.
Most of those look completely impossible. The most ''easily'' beatable ones would be the trophies, since realistically a really dominant player could win manage the Hart Rosses and especially Hart.
I would disagree. The trophies were complied over long periods of time. The single season records would be easier because one could have a fluke season and potential challenge them, especially if scoring increases to similar levels at some point in the future.
All of those are will be very hard to beat but the scoring titles stand out for me. Its almost twice as many as the next highest total, and they scale with era so level of scoring doesn't matter. With more parity in the NHL its only becoming harder to obtain that kind of dominance, and over such a long period.
