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04-12-2012, 05:42 PM
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ginopuck
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Dick Duff

Dick Duff, a great player and Hall of Famer, won 6 Stanley Cups, 2 with the Leafs and 4 with the Canadiens. Among all time Leafs and all time Canadiens players where does he rank? Top 30? Top 50? Top 100? Any thoughts?

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04-12-2012, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ginopuck View Post
Dick Duff, a great player and Hall of Famer, won 6 Stanley Cups, 2 with the Leafs and 4 with the Canadiens. Among all time Leafs and all time Canadiens players where does he rank? Top 30? Top 50? Top 100? Any thoughts?
Maybe top 60ish for the Leafs (9 seasons) and a possible top 100 for the Habs (5 and a bit seasons) off the top of my head.


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04-12-2012, 07:38 PM
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Just on his own teams,

On Toronto: behind Frank Mahovlich, Dave Keon, George Armstrong, Red Kelly, Bob Pulford, Tim Horton, Allan Stanley, Carl Brewer and Johnny Bower

On Montreal: Behind Jean Beliveau, Henri Richard, Claude Provost, JC Tremblay, Jacques Laperriere, Gump Worsley, later Yvan Cournoyer. A few others (Ralph Backstrom?) were close

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04-12-2012, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Maybe top 60ish for the Leafs (9 seasons) and a possible top 100 for the Habs (5 and a bit seasons) off the top of my head.
You're probably overestimating how many great players played for those franchises. I'm pretty sure someone published a book about the 100 greatest Leafs recently, and Todd Gill was something like #84. I can't see Duff being only 15 spots ahead of Todd Gill, even if you account for guys (Kessel, etc) that have probably elbowed their way up the list. The guy had Bryan McCabe in the late 40s too, I think. Wouldn't be surprised if Duff sits about 35-45 among Leafs. Habs, haven't thought about that enough to speak intelligently.

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04-12-2012, 08:55 PM
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You're probably overestimating how many great players played for those franchises. I'm pretty sure someone published a book about the 100 greatest Leafs recently, and Todd Gill was something like #84. I can't see Duff being only 15 spots ahead of Todd Gill, even if you account for guys (Kessel, etc) that have probably elbowed their way up the list. The guy had Bryan McCabe in the late 40s too, I think. Wouldn't be surprised if Duff sits about 35-45 among Leafs. Habs, haven't thought about that enough to speak intelligently.
Possibly, Duff was 22nd in GP and 26th in points for the Leafs.

For the Habs he was 106th in GP and 87th in points.

This doesn't account for other factors like goalies, defensive Dmen and players who played in lower games seasons.

Maybe I over estimated the great Leaf players over time but whatever his position is on the Leafs you probably ahve to double it to find his position on the Habs. ie 40-80

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04-12-2012, 09:39 PM
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Toronto Arenas -- Toronto St. Patricks -- Toronto Maple Leafs (1917-09)

#PlayerPOSNHL "HHOF Monitor PTS" (TOR only)
1Turk "Old Slippery" BrodaG1960.00
2C.J. Syl "Slippery Syl" AppsC1950.00
3Charlie "Big Blue Bomber" ConacherRW1872.00
4Cecil "Babe" DyeRW1664.00
5Ted "Teeder" KennedyC1627.50
6Johnny "China Wall" BowerG1525.50
7Frank "Big M" MahovlichLW1391.00
8Tim "Superman" HortonD1344.85
9Harvey "Busher" JacksonLW1325.50
10Dave KeonC1323.50
11Gordie "Lefty" DrillonRW1209.50
12Francis "King" ClancyD1079.25
13Mats "Sudden" SundinC1034.00
14Harry "Cammie" CameronD1026.00
15George "The Chief" ArmstrongRW973.00
16Borje "The King" SalmingD945.70
17Garnet I. "Ace" BaileyRW883.50
18Sid "Muff" SmithLW838.50
19Allan "Snowshoes" StanleyD824.45
20Joe "Gentleman Joe" PrimeauC808.00
21Bob "Pully" PulfordLW795.50
22Carl "Skitz" BrewerD748.50
23James R. "Jeems" ThomsonD735.75
24Darryl "Sit" SittlerC714.00
25Clarence "Hap" DayD706.75
26Reg "Old Sarge" Noble LW696.10
27Harry "Apple Cheeks" LumleyG656.50
28Corbett "Flash" DennenyC645.50
29Leonar "Red" Kelly C631.70
30Wally "The Whirling Dervish" Stanowski D629.40
31Gaye "Box Car" StewartLW585.50
32Nick "Handy Andy" MetzLW566.00
33Babe "The Honest Brakeman" Pratt D557.45
34Bob "Boomer" BaunD556.00
35Doug "Killer" GilmourC552.00
36Harry "Whipper" WatsonLW544.50
37Red "The Big Bad Wolf" HornerD523.90
38Tod "Slinker" Sloan C502.00
39Lorne Carr RW494.50
40Ron "Stewie" StewartRW484.50
41Max "Dipsy Doodle Dandy From Delisle" Bentley C473.00
42Bill Thoms C470.00
43David "Sweeney" SchrinerLW455.00
44Dick "Tricky Dick" DuffLW452.50
45Gus "Old Hardrock" MortsonD452.40
46Ron Ellis RW451.50
47Bob "Rugged" Davidson LW449.50
48Billy "Hinky" Harris C414.00
49Jack J. "The Squire Of Napanee" Adams C406.00
50Howie "Hurricane Howie" Meeker RW371.00
51Wendel "Boomer" Clark LW366.00
52Rick "Squiddly" VaiveRW364.00
53Joe "The Duke Of Paducah" Klukay LW363.00
54Wilfred "Bucko" McdonaldD361.50
55Lanny "Big Mac" Mcdonald RW358.00
56Bill "Hollywood" BarilkoD339.15
57Andy Blair C337.50
58Eddie "The Entertainer" Shack LW335.00
59Reg Hamilton D328.50
60Curtis "Cujo" JosephG327.00
61Ken "Pepper Kid" Randall D324.40
62Norm "Noisy" Ullman C318.50
63Baldy "The Cork Screw" Cotton LW317.00
64Elwin "Al" RollinsG311.50
65Lorne "Chabotsky" Chabot G292.50
66Alf "Dutch" Skinner RW287.50
67Bill "Wild Bill" Ezinicki RW272.00
68Vic Lynn LW265.80
69Frank "Ulcers" Mccool G264.50
69Don Metz RW264.50
71Tomas "Kabbie" Kaberle D261.80
72Garth Boesch D254.30
73Cal "Finger" Gardner C250.50
74Rudolph "Bingo" Kampman D247.50
74Regis "Pep" Kelly RW247.00
76Bob "Stretch" Nevin RW241.50
77Billy "The Kid" Taylor C231.00
78John "The Port Perry Woodpecker" Roach G228.50
79Terry "Ukey" Sawchuk G228.00
80Larry "Morley" Hillman D227.85
81Bryan "Caber" Mccabe D221.20
82Bert "Dirty Bertie" Olmstead LW224.50
83George "Little George" Hainsworth G221.50
84Gary Leeman RW212.80
85Dave "Chukie" Andreychuk LW212.50
86Kent Douglas D211.40
87Harry "Hap" Holmes G207.50
88Ian "Bull" Turnbull D207.40
89Todd "Gillzy" Gill D207.10
90August "Gus" Bodnar C207.00
91Paul "Bullet" Henderson LW204.50
92Alexander "Almo" Mogilny RW199.00
93Frank "Buzz" Boll LW198.00
94Bill "The Beast" Juzda D195.35
95Felix "The Cat" Potvin G194.50
96Paul "Babe" Bibeault G193.50
97Jim "Pappy" Pappin RW191.50
98Steve "Stumpy" Thomas RW191.00
99Billy "Ginger" Stuart D189.55
100Jim "Howie" Mckenny D189.15

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04-12-2012, 09:40 PM
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#PlayerPOSNHL "HHOF Monitor PTS" (Montreal only)
1Maurice "The Rocket" RichardRW4205.00
2Jean "Le Gros Bill" BeliveauC4055.50
3Doug "Dallying Doug" HarveyD2914.30
4Guy "The Flower" LafleurRW2722.00
5Jacques "Jake The Snake" PlanteG2627.00
6Howie "The Stratford Streak" MorenzC2557.00
7Ken "Octopus" DrydenG2376.73
8Bernie "Boom-Boom" GeoffrionRW2213.00
9Bill "The Mirror Man" DurnanG2124.50
10Georges "The Chicoutimi Cucumber" VezinaG1946.00
11Henri "Pocket Rocket" RichardC1857.50
12Aurel "The Mighty Atom" JoliatLW1852.50
13Elmer "Nokomis Flash" LachC1845.50
14Patrick "St Patrick" RoyG1788.50
15Larry "Big Bird" RobinsonD1747.55
16Hector "Toe" BlakeLW1655.00
17Richard "Dickie" MooreLW1646.50
18Yvan "The Roadrunner" CournoyerRW1463.50
19Butch "The Big Beekeeper" BouchardD1461.05
20Eduard "Newsy" LalondeC1388.50
21George "Little George" HainsworthG1358.00
22Jacques "Lappy" LaperriereD1185.35
23Claude "Secret Agent 14" ProvostRW1130.50
24Sylvio ManthaD1123.15
25Bob "Le Capitaine" GaineyLW1034.50
26Jacques "Coco" LemaireC1027.50
27Tom "Bow Tie" JohnsonD1009.45
28Sprague "Peg" CleghornD999.95
29Guy "Pointu" LapointeD980.90
30Steve ShuttLW967.50
31Lorne "Gump" WorsleyG905.50
32Serge "The Senator" SavardD885.00
33J.C. "Superstar" TrembleyD842.45
34Ken "Big Ox" ReardonD839.05
35Bobby RousseauRW823.00
36Jean Guy TalbotD811.50
37Ralph "Ralphie" BackstromC791.50
38Bert "Dirty Bertie" OlmsteadLW787.50
39Kenny MosdellC730.50
40Guy "Carbo" CarbonneauC705.50
41Billy Boucher RW678.50
42Ogilvie "Odie" Cleghorn RW631.50
43Charlie "Twitchy" Hodge G587.00
44Pete "Litte M" Mahovlich C580.50
45Albert "Babe" SiebertD565.80
46Mats "Le Petit Viking" Naslund LW553.00
47Joe "Phantom" Malone LW547.50
48Johnny "Black Cat" Gagnon RW542.50
49Floyd "Busher" Curry RW535.00
50John "Fergie" Ferguson LW529.00
51Chris "Cheli" Chelios D525.30
52Gerry Mcneil G516.50
53Terry "Harp" Harper D506.15
54Saku "Captain Courage" Koivu C490.00
55Mario "The Bionic Blueberry" Trembley RW481.50
56Rejean "Peanut" Houle LW477.50
57Jose "Theo" Theodore G474.50
58Don Marshall LW474.00
59Glen Harmon D470.45
60Dollard "Dolly" St.Laurent D459.45
61Jim W. Roberts D456.75
62Frank "Big M" Mahovlich LW455.50
63Edward "Ted" Harris D449.85
64Claude D. Larose RW445.00
65Billy Reay C429.50
66Yvon "Valentino" LambertLW427.00
67Marcel "The Bear of Joliette" Bonin LW422.00
68Bob Turner D412.40
69Pierre Bouchard D412.30
70Herb Gardiner D407.50
71Alfred "Pit" Lepine C397.50
72Dick "Tricky Dick" Duff LW393.50
73Vincent "Vinny" Damphousse LW390.00
74George Mantha LW380.00
75Phil "Thin Man" Goyette C367.50
76Doug Risebrough C361.00
77Gilles Trembley LW358.50
78Bobby Smith C351.00
79Albert "Battleship" Leduc D341.10
80Herbert "Buddy" O'Connor C338.50
81Doug "Ironman" Jarvis C333.50
82Didier "Cannonball" Pitre RW333.50
83Stephane J.J. Richer RW333.50
84Pierre Mondou C329.50
85Shayne "Corse" Corson LW302.50
86Joe "Bad Joe" Hall D300.50
87Andre Pronovost LW298.50
88Wilf "Petch" Cude G297.50
89Patrice "Breezy-By" Brisebois D295.10
90Billy "Beaver" Couture D278.25
91Craig Ludwig D268.75
92Wildor Larochelle RW268.50
93Rogie "Bono" Vachon G268.37
94Murph "Old Hardrock" Chamberlain LW263.00
95Mike Mcphee LW261.50
96Martin "Marty" Burke D255.40
97Brian "The Lion" Engblom D250.25
98Rick "Charty" Chartraw D248.00
99Armand Mondou LW247.50
100Mike "Keaner" Keane RW247.50

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04-12-2012, 09:56 PM
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pnep, correct me if I'm wrong here but your monitor gives each player from a championship team equal credit for being on that team right?

That being said 44 and 72 seems to be in the ballpark for both teams.

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04-12-2012, 10:21 PM
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pnep had a nice chart and that just about sums it up. Either way, among the weakest HHOF selections I have seen. I remember discussing on these boards prior to 2006 and I never remember even once having Duff's name come up. He wasn't even on the radar. No one thought of him which is why that selection was out of left field.

When I saw the headline read: "Roy, Duff, honoured" I sat back and pondered..........."Do they mean DICK Duff?" It was kind of the same reaction I had in 2007 when I missed the final game of the Cup final and called my wife at home to ask who was the Smythe winner and she said "Niedermayer." To which I replied: "Scott or Rob?" In other words, Scott wasn't even on the radar for me.

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04-13-2012, 06:44 AM
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Combine his pnep numbers and Duff would be top 20 with the Leafs and just short of the top 30 for the Canadiens. All in all, not too shabby.

One of the best clutch players of his era. Very well-respected by his peers. Have spoken to many of them and have yet to hear a single guy who played with or against Duff whine or complain about his HHoF selection like many younger fans seem to enjoy doing.

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04-13-2012, 10:01 AM
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Dick Duff

Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Combine his pnep numbers and Duff would be top 20 with the Leafs and just short of the top 30 for the Canadiens. All in all, not too shabby.

One of the best clutch players of his era. Very well-respected by his peers. Have spoken to many of them and have yet to hear a single guy who played with or against Duff whine or complain about his HHoF selection like many younger fans seem to enjoy doing.
Complete hockey player, consummate team player. Could make the cross ice transition pass from deep in his own zone, took the wide arc on the rush from the LW creating wider passing and shooting lanes for his linemates.

Basic issue is that it took time to appreciate how good Dick Duff really was. From the last 40 years there are hardly any LW who had and used the complete LW toolbox that Dick Duff did. Steve Shutt would be one of the few and he was not as good a passer or as complete defensively though he had a better shot and scoring touch.

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04-13-2012, 10:48 AM
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Interesting to see Serge Savard just ahead of JC Trembley, behind both Laperriere and Lapointe on the Pnep chart.

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04-13-2012, 02:03 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Combine his pnep numbers and Duff would be top 20 with the Leafs and just short of the top 30 for the Canadiens. All in all, not too shabby.

One of the best clutch players of his era. Very well-respected by his peers. Have spoken to many of them and have yet to hear a single guy who played with or against Duff whine or complain about his HHoF selection like many younger fans seem to enjoy doing.
Nostaglia does seem to be a very common character trait among the older generations as well.

Sure some might whine and complain but if one looks at it as objectively as possible surely you can see why his induction is questionable to say the least?

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04-13-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Combine his pnep numbers and Duff would be top 20 with the Leafs and just short of the top 30 for the Canadiens. All in all, not too shabby.
But then there are plenty of others (Gump Worsley, Doug Gilmour, Red Kelly, Chris Chelios, etc.) that you can say that for as well.

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04-13-2012, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Nostaglia does seem to be a very common character trait among the older generations as well.... Sure some might whine and complain but if one looks at it as objectively as possible surely you can see why his induction is questionable to say the least?
Statistically?. Sure. What you "young un's" seem to forget or completely discount is "Character". Grit. Balls. Duff was a Yeoman. One of the un-sung. Like Sean Bean in Lord of the Rings. A joke. Well, Im here to to straighten you right out HV. Because heres the dealeo' with Dicky Duff; Super-Glue. The kind of guy who was steady, conservative, cautious. Someone you could rely upon. A man who ran summer camps & clinics gratis all over Toronto & Ontario because he cared.

Thats right Baby, a nikcuf Saint in the Pantheon of Leafs, players. Sure he stunk of Old Spice and Whiskey Old Fashioneds's, hair parted "just so", but tell ya what?. To see him rated so lowly as per the above charts?!. Flabbergasted!!!. He took time out of his busy schedule to deal with the likes of me & here you are denigrating his eye for talent & commitment?. Why dont you ax the Don Mills Flyers, the Dixie Beehives, the Markham Waxers, the Toronto Marlies about Richard Duff?. Huh?. Have you even an inkling of an idea as to what that man "gave back" to the sport he so loved?. Damn straight he's in the HHOF.

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04-14-2012, 12:08 AM
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Statistically?. Sure. What you "young un's" seem to forget or completely discount is "Character". Grit. Balls. Duff was a Yeoman. One of the un-sung. Like Sean Bean in Lord of the Rings. A joke. Well, Im here to to straighten you right out HV. Because heres the dealeo' with Dicky Duff; Super-Glue. The kind of guy who was steady, conservative, cautious. Someone you could rely upon. A man who ran summer camps & clinics gratis all over Toronto & Ontario because he cared.

Thats right Baby, a nikcuf Saint in the Pantheon of Leafs, players. Sure he stunk of Old Spice and Whiskey Old Fashioneds's, hair parted "just so", but tell ya what?. To see him rated so lowly as per the above charts?!. Flabbergasted!!!. He took time out of his busy schedule to deal with the likes of me & here you are denigrating his eye for talent & commitment?. Why dont you ax the Don Mills Flyers, the Dixie Beehives, the Markham Waxers, the Toronto Marlies about Richard Duff?. Huh?. Have you even an inkling of an idea as to what that man "gave back" to the sport he so loved?. Damn straight he's in the HHOF.
As always you entertain as well as inform but sadly what you speak of should be reserved for builders and not actual players.

The bottom line is that Phil had it right when people were surprised at his induction when there are a ton of players more worthy of the HHOF which should be for the all time great hockey players and not great guys who had decent careers.

He very well might be one of the top 50 guys in Leafs history but not a chance for the Habs and that is very telling on how the two teams should be ranked historically as well IMO.

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04-14-2012, 01:59 AM
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Statistically?. Sure. What you "young un's" seem to forget or completely discount is "Character". Grit. Balls. Duff was a Yeoman. One of the un-sung. Like Sean Bean in Lord of the Rings. A joke. Well, Im here to to straighten you right out HV. Because heres the dealeo' with Dicky Duff; Super-Glue. The kind of guy who was steady, conservative, cautious. Someone you could rely upon. A man who ran summer camps & clinics gratis all over Toronto & Ontario because he cared.

Thats right Baby, a nikcuf Saint in the Pantheon of Leafs, players. Sure he stunk of Old Spice and Whiskey Old Fashioneds's, hair parted "just so", but tell ya what?. To see him rated so lowly as per the above charts?!. Flabbergasted!!!. He took time out of his busy schedule to deal with the likes of me & here you are denigrating his eye for talent & commitment?. Why dont you ax the Don Mills Flyers, the Dixie Beehives, the Markham Waxers, the Toronto Marlies about Richard Duff?. Huh?. Have you even an inkling of an idea as to what that man "gave back" to the sport he so loved?. Damn straight he's in the HHOF.
One thing I will bring up, in 2006 when Duff was inducted Colin Campbell wrote an article for the Hockey News explaining why Duff belonged. I have never seen that before - or since. What does that tell me? Well, the HHOF was hellbent on trying to justify their selection. Maybe they realized their mistake after it was too late? Either way, I never saw that for Gilmour, Anderson, Dino or anyone else inducted. There was never an explanation, not even for the ones who some didn't agree with. There WAS with Duff and that bothered me.

Look, I realize Duff's character and all, but if a modern contemporary like Claude Lemieux has just a minority of posters wanting to induct him then what does that say about Duff? I give full marks for character and clutch play and such. But in my heart of hearts I still don't think it would be right if John Tonelli got in regardless of how much I wish he could. And I think Tonelli deserved it more than Gillies - who I also disagree with. The Duff selection had unjustified nostalgia drenched all over it. Sometimes nostalgia is justified, in fact many times it is in hockey, but I didn't think so this time

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04-14-2012, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
He very well might be one of the top 50 guys in Leafs history but not a chance for the Habs...
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The Duff selection had unjustified nostalgia drenched all over it...
.... alright, thats it. He was an occifer n' a gentleman. Drop em!....

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