My point is... Hitch wasn't the problem then like most of you believed. Howson isn't the problem now like most people tend to believe now.
In 3 years you gonna start "fire _____"(insert new coach's name) thread and in 5 "fire _____" thread (insert another GM name). That's what's gonna happen if Howson fired now.
In my opinion, the problem is the roster and how it's constructed and it's compounded by poor drafting and development. This isn't the fault of one person.
Someone seems to regularly be trying to game the system, trying be the smartest guy in the room. There is a large list of these moves under both CBJ GMs. It has to be a large portion of the hockey operations staff. If the organization can't assemble a team of scouts, player development staff and solid coaching throughout the system the responsibility to put the right staff in place belongs to one person, the GM.
In my opinion, the problem is the roster and how it's constructed and it's compounded by poor drafting and development. This isn't the fault of one person.
Someone seems to regularly be trying to game the system, trying be the smartest guy in the room. There is a large list of these moves under both CBJ GMs. It has to be a large portion of the hockey operations staff. If the organization can't assemble a team of scouts, player development staff and solid coaching throughout the system the responsibility to put the right staff in place belongs to one person, the GM.
Hypothetical here: IF the Carter trade was not made and we kept the 8th pick and drafted Coutier, does anyone believe that he would have developed into the player he is with the Flyers? I don't. And yes, I know the talent level difference between the Jackets and the Flyers. But I can't fathom how when we draft young players that they don't develop into star players. We draft players to bench them (See Johannssen this year). This is reason enough in my book to fire the whole lot of them and start over.
Hypothetical here: IF the Carter trade was not made and we kept the 8th pick and drafted Coutier, does anyone believe that he would have developed into the player he is with the Flyers? I don't. And yes, I know the talent level difference between the Jackets and the Flyers. But I can't fathom how when we draft young players that they don't develop into star players. We draft players to bench them (See Johannssen this year). This is reason enough in my book to fire the whole lot of them and start over.
Watching Couturier last night, I was thinking along the same lines of if we could have drafted him. I think he is the caliber of player that would succeed anywhere. I also started to think of how do the Jackets miss on so many draft picks. Oh well, at #2 Howson can't miss, right?
Hypothetical here: IF the Carter trade was not made and we kept the 8th pick and drafted Coutier, does anyone believe that he would have developed into the player he is with the Flyers? I don't. And yes, I know the talent level difference between the Jackets and the Flyers. But I can't fathom how when we draft young players that they don't develop into star players. We draft players to bench them (See Johannssen this year). This is reason enough in my book to fire the whole lot of them and start over.
Looking at you statement I have no idea what to say... Looking at the regular season stats:
Player A. 67 games and 21 points....on the worst NHL team
Player B. 77 games and 27 points....on the talented offensive team
Age difference is only 5 month.
For some reason - Player A was drafted to get benched. Player B developed nicely. Some logical reasoning is obviously missed here.
The atmosphere at Nationwide has gone to crap. The workers are generally off-putting, etc...fire Priest.
Ushers, waiters/waitresses, concessions, ticket reps, everyone I see or have contact with is exceptionally nice. Don't know which arena you are attending. Maybe the Joe?
Watching Couturier last night, I was thinking along the same lines of if we could have drafted him. I think he is the caliber of player that would succeed anywhere. I also started to think of how do the Jackets miss on so many draft picks. Oh well, at #2 Howson can't miss, right?
The Jackets have done a horrible job vetting their picks, and I think player leadership made that problem worse. I don't know that a player like Couturier would thrive under Nash's "leadership". I think our draft picks will do better with the core group of leaders that will step in once Nash is gone.
I don't think its so much that Howson needs someone holding his hand (i.e. Patrick) The point is that plenty of other organizations that are much more successful have several guys in advisor-type roles that have plenty of league experience. Your organization can never have too many guys like this.
Ownership did itself no favors in the pre-protest letter by stating that Howson was and countines to learn on the job....
It makes me wonder why the heck it took five years to hire another front office type with NHL management experience....
Looking at you statement I have no idea what to say... Looking at the regular season stats:
Player A. 67 games and 21 points....on the worst NHL team
Player B. 77 games and 27 points....on the talented offensive team
Age difference is only 5 month.
For some reason - Player A was drafted to get benched. Player B developed nicely. Some logical reasoning is obviously missed here.
I by no means think Johansen is a bust or that he has been irreparably damaged this year.
But, to me anyway, he did not progress throughout the year as much as I would have liked. Couturier on the other hand seemed to get better and better as the season progressed.
Here's a quote from Laviolette in the Yahoo article quoted in another thread here:
Quote:
Coach Peter Laviolette started giving the kid eight or nine minutes. Then he started giving him 10 or 11 minutes. Then he started giving him 14 or 15 minutes – and not easy minutes, hard minutes. Tough matchups. Penalty kills. The last quarter of the season, Laviolette started pitting him against the best.
Couturier finished the regular season with 13 goals and 27 points, numbers that probably didn't earn him many votes for rookie-of-the-year honors. Didn't matter. He was plus-18. He had earned his coach's trust.
Johansen got a little extra time the last handful of games, but could you really see Howson/Richards giving a similar quote on his progress this year?
As far as "sending messages", winning games will send messages. People were staying away in droves during the 2008-09 season, then when it hit January and the team was still hanging around the top 8 in the conference, there began a string of sellouts that lasted all the way into the postseason. That was in Howson's second year, when he still had a good chunk of the team that was still carried over from MacLean.
Some guy named Hitchcock was a huge part of that playoff run. That, and Mase standing on his head.
Here is a question, isnt the sign of a good GM, one that can maintain success? How have we fared since that playoff year? And if he did that with MacLean's players, what does that say about the teams now, since they are largely Howson's players? I believe we are trending downward, and we need a cultural change asap, which requires the removal of BOTH Howson and Priest.
I by no means think Johansen is a bust or that he has been irreparably damaged this year.
But, to me anyway, he did not progress throughout the year as much as I would have liked. Couturier on the other hand seemed to get better and better as the season progressed.
Here's a quote from Laviolette in the Yahoo article quoted in another thread here:
Johansen got a little extra time the last handful of games, but could you really see Howson/Richards giving a similar quote on his progress this year?
The fact that both RuJo and Moore looked better at the beginning of the year makes me wonder if after this season was over in November they were put on some strength-and-conditioning program to make them physically ready for the next year.
Philly had a different goal - Couturier had to be ready for the playoffs. The Jackets didn't need on-ice production from their youngsters till the next season so Johansen and Moore could be working out more in the fitness room. That could be an explanation for their tired look since the middle of the season.
Looking at you statement I have no idea what to say... Looking at the regular season stats:
Player A. 67 games and 21 points....on the worst NHL team
Player B. 77 games and 27 points....on the talented offensive team
Age difference is only 5 month.
For some reason - Player A was drafted to get benched. Player B developed nicely. Some logical reasoning is obviously missed here.
I'll add another one in there.
Player C. 74 games and 22 points, average TOI of 12 minutes.
Player C second year. 81 games and 67 points, ATOI of just under 17 minutes.
That's Tyler Seguin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington
I don't think its so much that Howson needs someone holding his hand (i.e. Patrick) The point is that plenty of other organizations that are much more successful have several guys in advisor-type roles that have plenty of league experience. Your organization can never have too many guys like this.
Ownership did itself no favors in the pre-protest letter by stating that Howson was and countines to learn on the job....
It makes me wonder why the heck it took five years to hire another front office type with NHL management experience....
Anyone in a position of power learns on the job. Even Ken Hitchcock, in his 60s, has talked about learning a great deal from his time here, and that's someone who's had a lot of success everywhere he's gone. I'd be more concerned about someone who doesn't learn on the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dudlanch
He is the NHL version of Randy Lerner. Completely incompetent and hires incompetent people. Sad having all this ownership failure in Ohio.
I can think of few people more dissimilar than Randy Lerner and any member of the CBJ ownership group. Lerner has a lightning-quick trigger finger and made himself into a de facto GM from early on, and his hirings and firings sound like the work of someone whose "knowledge" came from old issues of Sports Illustrated. I was hopeful that bringing on Phil Savage was finally marking a change in that, and even he (an exceptional scout) couldn't work under Lerner.
Where should we begin?
- Hired a front office full of those whose NFL experience came from the 49ers...not when they were building into a dynasty, but after they'd already gotten there.
- Put enough pressure on at least two hot coaching candidates to either take the job or move on that they decided to move on.
- Regularly interfered in personnel decisions, which included firing Chris Palmer (after two seasons) because he wanted to draft Ladainian Tomlinson instead of either Leonard Davis or Gerard Warren.
- Purged the entire front office and coaching staff to hire a college coach and give him complete control.
Just think....all of this, and we're still only up to January of 2001.
Some guy named Hitchcock was a huge part of that playoff run. That, and Mase standing on his head.
Here is a question, isnt the sign of a good GM, one that can maintain success? How have we fared since that playoff year? And if he did that with MacLean's players, what does that say about the teams now, since they are largely Howson's players? I believe we are trending downward, and we need a cultural change asap, which requires the removal of BOTH Howson and Priest.
Again, what was the starting point? It's either improper or dishonest to make blanket assertions without looking at that. But then, 90% of the sports media does this, so it's not like there's any guidance there either.
But since we're having fun here, here's the 2008-09 roster, broken down by who acquired them.
MacLean
Rick Nash
Manny Malhotra
Derick Brassard
Fredrik Modin
Jason Chimera
Kris Russell
Marc Methot
Jared Boll
Andrew Murray
Rostislav Klesla
Derek Dorsett
Alexandre Picard
Ole-Kristian Tollefsen
Dan Lacosta
Steve Mason
Fredrik Norrena
Howson
Kristian Huselius
RJ Umberger
Jakub Voracek
Fedor Tyutin
Jason Williams
Mike Commodore
Mike Peca
Jan Hejda
Raffi Torres
Antoine Vermette
Jiri Novotny
Christian Backman
Nikita Filatov
Craig MacDonald
Chris Gratton
Wade Dubieliewicz
Derek MacKenzie
Aaron Rome
Clay Wilson
Mike York
Maxim Mayorov
MacLean, and traded mid-season
Pascal Leclaire
Regardless, you have in fact gotten to the heart of the matter: belief. You believe that we're trending downward. I do not. If I believed that there were in fact a downward trend, I'd be on your side.
Now, we're both smart and passionate individuals. We've also both been wrong before, although my wife doesn't know about this despite what she may say or think. It's very possible that I'm totally wrong and you're totally right, and it's possible that I'm totally right and you're totally wrong. This may be irreparably broken, or it may be one coach or one goalie away from being a legitimate contender. I've seen San Jose flounder under George Kingston, and Kevin Constantine take those very same players to a 58-point improvement in a single season. I've seen Pierre Page take Quebec to a 59-point improvement in a single season.
Looking at you statement I have no idea what to say... Looking at the regular season stats:
Player A. 67 games and 21 points....on the worst NHL team
Player B. 77 games and 27 points....on the talented offensive team
Age difference is only 5 month.
For some reason - Player A was drafted to get benched. Player B developed nicely. Some logical reasoning is obviously missed here.
THe logical reasoning isn't missed here, I wonder, as many do, why Johannssen didn't play more when it was obviously a lost season. Players get better by playing. Cloutier is playoff ready because he played. No one gets better by being nailed to a bench. Logic says practice makes perfect. Players seek more reps to get better. Johannssen would have improved more by playing. Would Cloutier have developed the way he has with the Jackets? Not unless he would get playing time, which he did in Philly
It is the lack of drafting and development of young players which I am concerned with. Hence the need for Howsen to go
It is the lack of drafting and development of young players which I am concerned with. Hence the need for Howsen to go
If this were some type of a systematic issue, then it would also stand to reason that players leaving Columbus would improve upon being with any other team. And yet that hasn't been the case with anyone. As weird as it is, the player who showed the most improvement was Gilbert Brule's one year of looking like an NHL player, followed by a sharp regression to norm.
What we need to do is accept the fact that the seven drafts of Doug MacLean yielded almost no NHL players who are above replacement level. Not just in Columbus, but anywhere. 2000 had Klesla, with only two other guys ever playing an NHL game. 2001 had Leclaire, who can't stay healthy, and Tim Jackman (who's a popular 4th-liner); Andrew Murray is a 4th-liner/AHLer. 2002 had Rick Nash and no one else. 2003, the deepest and best draft since 1979, yielded Zherdev and Marc Methot. 2004 had no real NHLers (Clitsome and Picard being AHL-level). 2005 had Brule, Adam McQuaid, Kris Russell, and Jared Boll. 2006 had Brassard, Dorsett, and Steve Mason.
The final tally in seven drafts is a grand total of two forwards who are top-6 caliber (Nash and Brassard), and one defenseman who's top-4 caliber (Klesla). Other teams that are contending right now are doing so on the backs of players who they picked between 2000 and 2006, and we're stuck with almost nothing as a result.
Philadelphia during that time picked up Roman Cechmanek, Justin Williams, Patrick Sharp, Dennis Seidenberg, Joni Pitkanen, Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Steve Downie, Claude Giroux, and Andreas Nodl. San Jose picked Marcel Goc, Ryane Clowe, Christian Ehrhoff, Milan Michalek, Matt Carle, Joe Pavelski, Devin Setoguchi, Marc-Edouard Vlasic, and Jamie McGinn. Buffalo's not even a playoff team, but they still got Paul Gaustad, Derek Roy, Chris Thorburn, Jason Pominville, Daniel Paille, Dennis Wideman, Keith Ballard, Jan Hejda, Thomas Vanek, Clarke MacArthur, Drew Stafford, Andrej Sekera, Patrick Kaleta, Jhonas Enroth, Nathan Gerbe, and Marc-Andre Gragnani. I can go on and on and on with this. Even Minnesota, who I've blasted for poor drafting, produced 8 true NHLers from those 7 drafts.
But here's part of the problem. The pattern of drafting/development was so firmly established under MacLean that it's been projected, unfairly in my opinion, onto his successor. A lot of those players didn't just break through as 19- or 20-year-old players; most were 22, 23, or 24 before they looked like anything more than AHL players. We look at Jhonas Enroth as a terrific young goalie, but he was actually drafted when Doug MacLean was still in Columbus. So was Cory Schneider. So was Carey Price. And Ondrej Pavelec, and Tuukka Rask, and Jonathan Quick, Ben Bishop, Michal Neuvirth, and Semyon Varlamov....and so on.
THAT is what poor drafting does. Columbus under Howson has exactly one bust, that being Filatov, and him being dumped for a guy who's still a good prospect means that there's still a lot of actual NHL futures.
THe logical reasoning isn't missed here, I wonder, as many do, why Johannssen didn't play more when it was obviously a lost season. Players get better by playing. Cloutier is playoff ready because he played. No one gets better by being nailed to a bench. Logic says practice makes perfect. Players seek more reps to get better. Johannssen would have improved more by playing. Would Cloutier have developed the way he has with the Jackets? Not unless he would get playing time, which he did in Philly
It is the lack of drafting and development of young players which I am concerned with. Hence the need for Howsen to go
Who are you talking about?
Quote:
No one gets better by being nailed to a bench.
How is 67 games for 19 y.o. is "being nailed to the bench"? I've posted a lot about that in the Johansen's thread. Joe Thornton and Tyler Seguin were obviously ruined in Boston since "No one gets better..."
Dan Cloutier, obviously. He was once a highly-regarded goalie prospect, didn't break through, was traded to Tampa, then Vancouver, then became known as the guy who couldn't make a routine save without it triggering a cardiac event in his teammates and fans.
Dan Cloutier, obviously. He was once a highly-regarded goalie prospect, didn't break through, was traded to Tampa, then Vancouver, then became known as the guy who couldn't make a routine save without it triggering a cardiac event in his teammates and fans.
THe logical reasoning isn't missed here, I wonder, as many do, why Johannssen didn't play more when it was obviously a lost season. Players get better by playing. Cloutier is playoff ready because he played. No one gets better by being nailed to a bench. Logic says practice makes perfect. Players seek more reps to get better. Johannssen would have improved more by playing. Would Cloutier have developed the way he has with the Jackets? Not unless he would get playing time, which he did in Philly
It is the lack of drafting and development of young players which I am concerned with. Hence the need for Howsen to go
Logic also says that if you work hard to earn something, you're better off for it. You talk development, but isn't making players earn their time and opportunity something players are exposed to from midget on?
Giving players ice time based on draft status is a big part of why this org is the way it is.
Watching Couturier last night, I was thinking along the same lines of if we could have drafted him. I think he is the caliber of player that would succeed anywhere. I also started to think of how do the Jackets miss on so many draft picks. Oh well, at #2 Howson can't miss, right?
The Jackets don't miss as much as many think, they distroy.. had Coutuier been drafted by Howson he would probably be on the track to failure one way or another.
Memorize this as it applies to the Blue Jackets future failure if Priest and Howson are retained; General Buford June 31st 1863 Gettysburg Pennsylvania in reference to holding the high ground.
"Devin, I've led a soldier's life, and I've never seen anything as brutally clear as this."
After reading the Portzline piece this am I'm firmly convinced that this crew is clueless on how to fix the situation. I wish the article could have left me with a better feeling; But wait with this mgt team that is not possible
Last edited by CBJfan4evr: 04-15-2012 at 08:18 AM.
