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Guy Carbonneau

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Old
04-14-2012, 11:30 AM
  #26
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
but that's exactly my point. you can make a guy with no defensive instincts a passable, even above average defensive player. due to coaching, systems, drilling high percentage plays, etc., the gap in defensive talent also looks less apparent these days.
Defensive talent isn't nearly the same as offensive talent IMO.

Defense is 1st and foremost about hard work, positioning and reacting and preventing the other team from doing something. It is simply much easier to destroy something than create something IMO.

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but i'll dignify it anyway because the fact is gartner never did anything to lift his teams anywhere.
Could be Gartner could be his teams or a combo of both, the fact is that Gartner was an extremely productive forward for a very long time.


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a stacked NYR team felt they had to trade him (for glenn anderson, btw) to win. and then they did.
Sure Anderson was the reason the Rangers won their 1st cup in 50 years. Are you really implying that?

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gartner goes to a stacked toronto team, again the exact same toronto team that anderson played on the year before, and can't hold anderson's jock. anderson in toronto in the '93 playoffs: 7, 11, 18. gartner in toronto in the '94 playoffs: 5, 6, 11.

let us please never say gartner could have been glenn anderson ever again.
when we look at their careers, and especially when Anderson produced it was always in a more favorable situation than Gartner but instead you are looking at one season only.

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we'll have to agree to disagree here. but again, logic is an issue. i don't see how patrick roy being awesome has anything to do with carbonneau not being as good as nieuwendyk.
forgive me if I'm wrong here but you were implying that Carbonneau's playoff peak was on par to a CS winner's and if you are taking 93 as the example the Habs are not even in the final with anyone but roy, he was simply outstanding that series and sure Carb shut down Wayne but it wasn't a prime wayne either the guy was 32 and had been more ordinary in the 3 playoffs up to 93.

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04-14-2012, 12:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Craig Ramsey with Don Luce and Danny Gare brought the Sabres to the level of solid SC contenders as they were a solid,complete second line behind the French Connection. However Their defensive skills are somewhat slanted by playing half their games on the smaller ice surface of the Buffalo Auditorium. Overpass posted about this a few years ago.

Gainey with Jarvis brought the Canadiens from the level of solid SC contenders in 1974 and 1975 to SC Champions by playing shutdown defense.
At the end of the day even the best defensive players are still complementary pieces to any teams success.

All defensive skills are better used on home ice where teams have the last change, not sure how one could even deduct the differences of the Aud for Ramsey and Luce compared to other home/road splits for something that isn't even always measurable.

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04-14-2012, 12:36 PM
  #28
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Well...........

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
At the end of the day even the best defensive players are still complementary pieces to any teams success.

All defensive skills are better used on home ice where teams have the last change, not sure how one could even deduct the differences of the Aud for Ramsey and Luce compared to other home/road splits for something that isn't even always measurable.
So are you implying that Doug Harvey, Nicklas Lidstrom, Denis Potvin, Henri Richard, Dave Keon, Bobby Clarke and others of a similar ilk were complementary pieces?

But that is the true measure - imposing your brand of defense on away ice. Gainey could while Ramsey could not.

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04-14-2012, 12:42 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
So are you implying that Doug Harvey, Nicklas Lidstrom, Denis Potvin, Henri Richard, Dave Keon, Bobby Clarke and others of a similar ilk were complementary pieces?
None of those guys except maybe Keon and Richard, were "defensive" players ... they were "dominant, all-around players" who by definition of "all-around" were good defensively.
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Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Carbonneau was the best defensive forward post-Gainey. Better than Otto, Tikkanen, Lehtinen, etc. He was one of the most intelligent players of his era.
This lifelong Stars fan came to the party late on Carbo, but I don't think he was better than Lehtinen, because I think Lehtinen is horribly underrated. Gainey, then Lehtinen and Carbo, then Tikkanen and Otto and guys like Mike Peca and John Madden.

When Dallas was winning 12-14 years ago, old man Carbonneau was the first priority the last minute of the game, not Modano, not Nieuwendyk. Wonderful face-off man, good speed, very intelligent and tough as nails, one of the 5-6 guys on the '99 Stars who you could say, "wouldn't have happened without him." I can't think of a 3rd line center I'd rather have, and I would bet that 95% of the coaches and 1st line centers who were active in the NHL from 1985-2000 would agree.

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04-14-2012, 03:11 PM
  #30
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I always liked this picture of him and Peter Stastny.


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04-14-2012, 04:43 PM
  #31
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Defensive talent isn't nearly the same as offensive talent IMO.

Defense is 1st and foremost about hard work, positioning and reacting and preventing the other team from doing something. It is simply much easier to destroy something than create something IMO.
well, my thinking is that there are more guys in the league who can do what gartner or nieuwendyk or andreychuk did than guys who can do what carbonneau can did.


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Could be Gartner could be his teams or a combo of both, the fact is that Gartner was an extremely productive forward for a very long time.




Sure Anderson was the reason the Rangers won their 1st cup in 50 years. Are you really implying that?
nope. see below.



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when we look at their careers, and especially when Anderson produced it was always in a more favorable situation than Gartner but instead you are looking at one season only.
right. my point is that there is one season where anderson doesn't have the huge teammate advantage. they had exactly the same team. one guy (who was post-prime) was awesome, the other guy had his usual passable but nothing special playoff impact.



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forgive me if I'm wrong here but you were implying that Carbonneau's playoff peak was on par to a CS winner's and if you are taking 93 as the example the Habs are not even in the final with anyone but roy, he was simply outstanding that series and sure Carb shut down Wayne but it wasn't a prime wayne either the guy was 32 and had been more ordinary in the 3 playoffs up to 93.
i wasn't implying that carbonneau's playoff peak was on par with the kinds of conn smythe awards that giguere or sakic or roy won. i do however think that carbonneau's playoff peak is certainly in the ballpark of the they-had-to-give-it-to-someone conn smythe years like nieuwendyk's, cam ward's, toews's, and niedermayer's. look at niedermayer's year: you probably won't agree but a lot of people think that it could have gone to any of niedermayer, giguere, pronger, or pahlsson. and carbonneau's playoff peak was higher than pahlsson's.

and by the way, did you see wayne that spring? that was his third best playoffs, points-wise. and with by far the worst supporting cast of any of his finals teams. i don't know what got into him that spring, but he was next to unstoppable. again, i don't think anyone else in the world could have stopped wayne in '93. and is stopping the fourth highest playoff scoring year of all time (which probably would have been as high as second all time if carbo hadn't shut him down) not as impactful as nieuwendyk's 11 goals and 21 points? those were big goals, but how many big goals did carbo prevent?

and again, if it is as you suggest easier to be carbonneau than it is to be nieuwendyk or gartner, then why were there so many players year after year higher than nieuwendyk and gartner in MVP and all-star voting (even in their career years), but no one ahead of carbonneau in selke voting in his best years?

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04-14-2012, 08:57 PM
  #32
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
well, my thinking is that there are more guys in the league who can do what gartner or nieuwendyk or andreychuk did than guys who can do what carbonneau can did.
well I'd guess that if what Carbonneau does is harder to find and just as valuable as what the 3 guys listed do then all 30 GM's would pay more for that defensive forward at free agency right?

Supply and demand suggests otherwise but maybe GM's are wrong on that but I don't think so.

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right. my point is that there is one season where anderson doesn't have the huge teammate advantage. they had exactly the same team. one guy (who was post-prime) was awesome, the other guy had his usual passable but nothing special playoff impact.
Well 1st of all teams are never the same from one year to the next and in the playoffs match ups and all sorts of other variables can really make wide fluctuations on analysis.

we should probably do a comparison of Gartner and Anderson in depth for the regular season sometime and see if your assertion of Anderson's worth over Garner holds up.

I know it does in the playoffs but sadly the sample size for the most direct comparison is too small to jump to any conclusions and the fact of the matter is that while Anderson scored at a way better rate in the playoffs overall he was arguably never the 4th or even 5th most important guy in his teams cup runs despite his lofty scoring exploits.


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i wasn't implying that carbonneau's playoff peak was on par with the kinds of conn smythe awards that giguere or sakic or roy won. i do however think that carbonneau's playoff peak is certainly in the ballpark of the they-had-to-give-it-to-someone conn smythe years like nieuwendyk's, cam ward's, toews's, and niedermayer's. look at niedermayer's year: you probably won't agree but a lot of people think that it could have gone to any of niedermayer, giguere, pronger, or pahlsson. and carbonneau's playoff peak was higher than pahlsson's.
most year the Conn Smythe has a mix of players in the race and Carb's peak doesn't match up to any of the guys lsited above and definitively not Toews.

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and by the way, did you see wayne that spring? that was his third best playoffs, points-wise. and with by far the worst supporting cast of any of his finals teams. i don't know what got into him that spring, but he was next to unstoppable. again, i don't think anyone else in the world could have stopped wayne in '93. and is stopping the fourth highest playoff scoring year of all time (which probably would have been as high as second all time if carbo hadn't shut him down) not as impactful as nieuwendyk's 11 goals and 21 points? those were big goals, but how many big goals did carbo prevent?
Sure Wayne had a resurgence, I would have to go back and watch every game and look at directly to see why but my bet is that Roy was wayyy more responsible for the Habs fortune's from what I recall of watching those finals and CS voters agree.

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and again, if it is as you suggest easier to be carbonneau than it is to be nieuwendyk or gartner, then why were there so many players year after year higher than nieuwendyk and gartner in MVP and all-star voting (even in their career years), but no one ahead of carbonneau in selke voting in his best years?
See my 1st response in thsi post.

carbonneau was a very good player overall and a great one defensively but I really have to disagree with the level of importance you are putting him in compared to the toehr guys mentioned in thsi thread except perhaps Andreychuck but then again I didn't bring him up either.

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Old
04-14-2012, 09:21 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
well I'd guess that if what Carbonneau does is harder to find and just as valuable as what the 3 guys listed do then all 30 GM's would pay more for that defensive forward at free agency right?

Supply and demand suggests otherwise but maybe GM's are wrong on that but I don't think so.
This is exactly it. If you can only keep one of your: A) star offensive centre or B) your elite checking centre, the checking centre is going to be much easier to replace. Obviously not every player can be Guy Carbonneau or Jere Lehtinen, but any half-way smart player who can skate can be at least a good defensive player. So much of it is discipline and hard work. The same can't be said for offensive talent, which is why guys with legit offensive talent are always at a premium.

I don't think Carbonneau compares well to any but the weakest of Hall of Fame inductions (Gillies, Duff, etc). And those inductions are weak, because like Carbonneau, they were support/secondary players. I won't argue that there's really anything separating Carbonneau or Tikkanen from Clark Gillies. But at the same time, I don't think any of them belong in the Hall of Fame. I think the Hall has certainly made some mistakes in the past, but I hope that's not used as a reason to make the same mistakes again in the future. It should be for true star players. The kind of guys you build a team around. The types that are go-to players, rather than situational players.


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04-15-2012, 01:49 AM
  #34
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Carbo was JAW-DROPPING AWESOME without the puck! He was fast, in guys' faces, recovering pucks, positionally astute, really a marvel to watch. Guys like Lehtinen, Peca, Madden were students of the master. Only Gainey compares in terms of play without the puck among forwards the past third of a century.



History ought not to forget his type. There ought ot be room in the Hall of Fame for famous defensive forwards!

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04-21-2012, 07:21 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I know I'm in the minority here, but having seen Gainey for most of his career, and Carbonneau for all of it, I personally think Carbonneau was the better hockey player. There are also solid arguments for Craig Ramsey as well for players in that role. I just think Carbonneau's role as a defensive center was much more demanding than Gainey's or other elite defensive wingers.


As Gainey said himself, he got a hell of alot of mileage from that quote from the Russian coach.
The '79 playoffs were really amazing also. Remember that big welt on his head when accepting the Conn Smythe

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04-22-2012, 01:36 AM
  #36
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He was one of the best ever at what he did, and what he did was pretty important to his teams successes. Shunning him is certainly undervaluing him and basically saying, "So what, you didnt put up offensive numbers so we don't care."

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04-22-2012, 01:54 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Carbo was JAW-DROPPING AWESOME without the puck! He was fast, in guys' faces, recovering pucks, positionally astute, really a marvel to watch. Guys like Lehtinen, Peca, Madden were students of the master. Only Gainey compares in terms of play without the puck among forwards the past third of a century.



History ought not to forget his type. There ought to be room in the Hall of Fame for famous defensive forwards!
Agreed.

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04-22-2012, 10:12 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
He may have gotten a lot of mileage out of it, but that was also around the time he won the Conn Smythe. That's telling right there. You win the Smythe when you have Lafleur, Robinson and Dryden as your teammates. I love Carboneau but the year that he had his best playoff run (I don't know, 1993? or 1986) he wasn't close to a Smythe winner.
I don't recall Gainey doing any masterful shadow jobs that playoff. He won because he was a defensive forward who averaged a ppg that playoff. Carbo's job on Gretzky in 1993 was superior to any of gainey's defensive work in 1979.

As an aside, I think lemaire should have won the Conn in 1979. Top scorer on the Habs and one of the best two way efforts as well.

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04-22-2012, 11:19 AM
  #39
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Jacques Lemaire

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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I don't recall Gainey doing any masterful shadow jobs that playoff. He won because he was a defensive forward who averaged a ppg that playoff. Carbo's job on Gretzky in 1993 was superior to any of gainey's defensive work in 1979.

As an aside, I think lemaire should have won the Conn in 1979. Top scorer on the Habs and one of the best two way efforts as well.
Jacques Lemaire, very under appreciated center. One of the complete centers in NHL history. Should have been part of Team Canada 1972.

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05-11-2012, 10:28 AM
  #40
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I think Carbon and Leht should be in the HHoF.

"Case in point is a player that entered the league in Gainey’s waning years, and survived the 1980s and early 90s with his elite defensive reputation intact. Guy Carbonneau toiled over 19 NHL seasons, winning 3 Selkes and 3 Stanley Cups, all the while carrying the label of the league’s best defensive forward. Beyond that, he did something incredibly well that Bob Gainey rarely ever did: win faceoffs. In the process, Carbonneau played 1,318 games, scoring 260 goals, 403 assists, and 663 points along with a career +/- of +186.

Another more-recent example is a player currently without a job, Jere Lehtinen. Also the recipient of 3 Selkes and a Stanley Cup, Lehtinen has had a more prolific scoring career than Gainey or Carbonneau, but this was certainly not to the detriment of his defensive game. For sure, if you were to ask 100 hockey experts on the best defensive players of the period 1995-2010, Lehtinen would enter the conversation for almost every one. With 875 games played, 243 goals, 271 goals, 514 points, and a career +176, who could argue? He only had one season where he finished with a minus (Gainey had two, and Carbonneau four) despite playing on a number of suspect Dallas teams. He and Modano were constants on teams that boasted some of the most incredible goaltending statistics in NHL history, including Ed Belfour’s 1997-98 and 1998-99 and Marty Turco’s 2002-03 and 2003-04. Yet it is unlikely that Lehtinen will get his due, much like Carbonneau sees each year come and go without a chance to join his Montreal brethren in the hallowed Hall."

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