If we priced up for second round strips...there would be cries that we were taking advantage of a possible Rangers match-up, w/o a guarantee (much like it being complained about now about round 1...with the anticipation of a good opponent in round 2).
What are you trying to claim...if we had priced DOWN on round 1, then there would be MORE REAL fans buying seats as strips and PAWP and we would have more real fans in the building in round 2? That's RIDICULOUS. In fact...if we priced down, we would have WAY more folks buying extra strips and PAWP's, trying to re-sell - knowing they wouldn't lose much in round 1, and could make a ton in round 2. The logic is just flawed.
This round. Regardless if you bought 10...or your friend bought 10...or your bought 10 more...the bottom line is - even with the ABILITY to make a ton on round 2, the RE-SELLERS (real or fans) amounted to 2,000 for round 1.
Therefore, if it's about cheering for your team and not about the profit...the core 15,000 devils fans own THEIR tickets.
Your math is all correct on re-sell prices and abilities. The bottom line is, what's more important to the fan.
That has nothing to do with the Devils pricing.
Let's agree to disagree.
I have no access to data on the total (over time, not at any one point) of tickets on SH so can't respond. Other than to say if you would like to make a gentlemen's side bet on whether there will be many more than 2,000 Rags fans at a R2 matchup PM me. I'll take that bet all day long.
And it is about Devils R1 pricing. Half this board of real fans is holding it's breath waiting for prices to drop so they can go see THEIR team. Econ 101. If you priced tickets so that supply equalled demand this all would have been done on day one and these fans would be in their seats cheering on the team.
just like you mentioned about buying more strips...there would be 4,000 seats on SH instead of 2,000. You yourself said you were about to buy more (even at THESE prices). You are arguing both sides.
I have no clue how many Rangers fans will be in the building. However..again it is on our fans as to what they want to do...and our pricing has nothing to do with that.
If we priced up for second round strips...there would be cries that we were taking advantage of a possible Rangers match-up, w/o a guarantee (much like it being complained about now about round 1...with the anticipation of a good opponent in round 2).
What are you trying to claim...if we had priced DOWN on round 1, then there would be MORE REAL fans buying seats as strips and PAWP and we would have more real fans in the building in round 2? That's RIDICULOUS. In fact...if we priced down, we would have WAY more folks buying extra strips and PAWP's, trying to re-sell - knowing they wouldn't lose much in round 1, and could make a ton in round 2. The logic is just flawed.
Agree pricing R1 lower makes the financial gain for resellers greater.
My point is that before that opportunity made it's way around - it still exists and is out there - the barn would have been sold with real fans with a cheaper R1 price point.
Let's assume this board is a good cross section of the fanbase, particularly the more dedicated parts of the fanbase (ie more likely to go at any price). Don't you find it troubling so many are still looking for cheaper R1 tickets to be able to go?
Also, you have your mailing lists of fans. With half the work that is going into pushing these last 2k tickets you guys could have targeted the 'real' fanbase with a $15 cheaper R1 ticket and have all the seats sold and filled with Devs fans.
It is about the money. And there is nothing wrong with that, it's a business enterprise at the end of the day.
I liked it very much...that's a pretty accurate account. You could argue we could be sneaky about it and hold back...but when you see sections in the 200s with plenty of seats together that are open...there is not much being disguised. Different teams manage that map differently...it's still relatively a new tool. Some 2s and 3s could pop up from holds being released...but it wouldn't amount to much. Hope that helps.
Agree pricing R1 lower makes the financial gain for resellers greater.
My point is that before that opportunity made it's way around - it still exists and is out there - the barn would have been sold with real fans with a cheaper R1 price point.
Let's assume this board is a good cross section of the fanbase, particularly the more dedicated parts of the fanbase (ie more likely to go at any price). Don't you find it troubling so many are still looking for cheaper R1 tickets to be able to go?
Also, you have your mailing lists of fans. With half the work that is going into pushing these last 2k tickets you guys could have targeted the 'real' fanbase with a $15 cheaper R1 ticket and have all the seats sold and filled with Devs fans.
It is about the money. And there is nothing wrong with that, it's a business enterprise at the end of the day.
And for the final 1,000 (not 2,000, as 1,000 WERE purchased by the resellers gambling on SH), we should price every seat $15 less? Is business and money part of the decision...of course. But again...you don't price $15 less because of 1,000 seats. There are some teams (even in our market), that do that...and the result is - waiting and waiting and waiting for discounts...and $5 tickets on re-sale.
Growing pains...but worth for us to work harder to sell those final tickets...then give them away for prices we believe are not the prices that should be charged for playoff hockey. 16,000 other fans felt the same way...
Do we have a young base? yes...part of it...and yes...at $30 per ticket, could it be easier to sell the final $1,000 - yes. But in the REGULAR season, how many complaints are on here about college nights and family nights and other promotions? We need to do it to fill the building as the base get older and more financially stable - absolutely. But you can't do it in the playoff - not when 16,000 people have paid what the prices SHOULD be. It's not fair to those 16,000...
SH will make up for it and allow those 1,000 others to come at a lower price - if the market calls for it...so much like the fan who was looking for a $45 seat...he should be able to get one now.
But our base is at an in-between point. We have a solid base of folks who will pay playoff prices as they should be...and then we have a young base that can't afford prices as high. Of course we're sensitive to that...in playoffs sometimes you can't be all things to all people.
And for the final 1,000 (not 2,000, as 1,000 WERE purchased by the resellers gambling on SH), we should price every seat $15 less? Is business and money part of the decision...of course. But again...you don't price $15 less because of 1,000 seats. There are some teams (even in our market), that do that...and the result is - waiting and waiting and waiting for discounts...and $5 tickets on re-sale.
Growing pains...but worth for us to work harder to sell those final tickets...then give them away for prices we believe are not the prices that should be charged for playoff hockey. 16,000 other fans felt the same way...
Again, FWIW, me to you as a fan to the org.
I was gold circle at meadowlands, originally four clubs at pru, and now a share in four different clubs. In addition this season I took more than ten suites from you on a single game sale and did two group events with 150 tickets each. I love the team and promote and support it any way I can.
Maybe I'm unique, but you're losing me. You and your staff work their butts off, I've seen it first hand. That's not the issue. But the crazy array of ticket prices, deals, etc. is dizzying.
As you said owners of professional sports franchises aren't in it to make annual returns. I understand our ownership situation and debtload ties our hands relative to others. But at some point there needs to be a reinvestment in the business. And, yes, I can't think of a better reinvestment particualrly long term than leaving $225k on the table and filling the place with loyal, long time fans.
However, you are using my words against me. Teams aren't in it to turn a huge profit, no...but they are in it to at least break even. Player salaries increase every year per most contracts. This team this year has taken on MORE salary with its moves. I think that's a fair thing to ask for to attempt to break even, no? It's not like other teams/markets where the team spends the floor purposely. That's why NBA owners held out as long as they did - to have a chance to break even.
If we were charging ANYWHERE near what is charged in other markets, I could understand the sentiment. But we're debating over 1,000 tickets not being sold. You could argue we could have charged $15 more per seat in round 1 and still sold 15,000 or 16,000 seats. You could argue we could have been more aggressive in round 2 pricing expecting the Rangers. We didn't.
The bottom line is - we want a building just as packed as you do. That's why we work as hard as you mentioned. If it was as simple as - charge $15 less per ticket, of course we would do that. But it's just not that simple...
I like it very much...the walk-up part of the biz has fizzled to almost nothing. We've kept the $11 thing on game days (yes higher for playoffs), as a way to still give incentive for some fans to come...and to not be too greedy on those tix and allow value seekers to come in. But traditional walk-up has just about died out. Internet sales have made it almost insignificant. It's amazing how much the biz has changed in the last 10 years.
just like you mentioned about buying more strips...there would be 4,000 seats on SH instead of 2,000. You yourself said you were about to buy more (even at THESE prices). You are arguing both sides.
I have no clue how many Rangers fans will be in the building. However..again it is on our fans as to what they want to do...and our pricing has nothing to do with that.
I was gold circle at meadowlands, originally four clubs at pru, and now a share in four different clubs. In addition this season I took more than ten suites from you on a single game sale and did two group events with 150 tickets each. I love the team and promote and support it any way I can.
Maybe I'm unique, but you're losing me. You and your staff work their butts off, I've seen it first hand. That's not the issue. But the crazy array of ticket prices, deals, etc. is dizzying.
As you said owners of professional sports franchises aren't in it to make annual returns. I understand our ownership situation and debtload ties our hands relative to others. But at some point there needs to be a reinvestment in the business. And, yes, I can't think of a better reinvestment particualrly long term than leaving $225k on the table and filling the place with loyal, long time fans.
Wait.. so you're lambasting the Devils for their pricing leading to an opportunity for resellers to make a quick buck and price out the casual fan when YOU YOURSELF are taking advantage of just that opportunity?
Oh c'mon. Two can play this game. You're accusing the Devils of trying to make a quick buck when you're doing the SAME EXACT THING. Why don't you just sell your tickets next round for $15 under face value to Devils fans to ensure Devils fans pack the building?
Honestly, you have no legs to stand on there. That's like accusing the Devils of murder because they loaded the gun that you used to shoot a guy. You're the one pulling the trigger and making the potential issue into a tangible one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devs Service Answers
However, you are using my words against me. Teams aren't in it to turn a huge profit, no...but they are in it to at least break even. Player salaries increase every year per most contracts. This team this year has taken on MORE salary with its moves. I think that's a fair thing to ask for to attempt to break even, no? It's not like other teams/markets where the team spends the floor purposely. That's why NBA owners held out as long as they did - to have a chance to break even.
If we were charging ANYWHERE near what is charged in other markets, I could understand the sentiment. But we're debating over 1,000 tickets not being sold. You could argue we could have charged $15 more per seat in round 1 and still sold 15,000 or 16,000 seats. You could argue we could have been more aggressive in round 2 pricing expecting the Rangers. We didn't.
The bottom line is - we want a building just as packed as you do. That's why we work as hard as you mentioned. If it was as simple as - charge $15 less per ticket, of course we would do that. But it's just not that simple...
I'm very encouraged and happy with how much you care about this issue to talk about it over the weekend. The Devils are at a crossroads as a fan base and hopefully in 5-6 years, we will have a packed house every night as our fan base matures. Would definitely make your job easier
I really do think all these discounts over the past few years have really hurt this team now. Fans, like many of this threads, have come to value Devils games based on those discounts and not the actual value of going to a game. These first round prices are pretty fair, at most $5 a ticket more than I would've priced them. Problem is, our fan base is so used to discounts that the 'fair' value of tickets to them is based on those discounts.
I bought the strip because I saw the prices for the first two rounds and thought about the value of attending a game would be for me. Those prices fit exactly, I really was shocked at how low prices for the strips were. Probably would have still done it for $5-10 more per game. Maybe this comes from me having Rangers fans in the family and see how much they drop for games (or attending Devils-Rangers games at MSG myself).. my brother paid $180 for the more or less the same seats I'm paying $65 for to go to game 2 last night.
It's the playoffs. Prices go up. Figure out the value of going to a game for yourself and then look for appropriate deals.. unless you think you should be entitled to go to the game for $20-30.. there have been many, many opportunities for you to "pack the house with Devils fans" . Pricing is not an issue here.
Anyways, rant over. DSA, where do we who purchased the strips pick up our food and beverage cards? Thought they would be mailed with the tickets..
Whether it is leftwing, or anyone else...I'm always happy to have anyone who wants to discuss the biz, see #s, bring in ideas, into the office. These boards are tough, as it is hard to interpret tone/feeling/drive through text alone. Hope everyone understands that these decisions are things we discuss DAILY, almost HOURLY. The difference in this business is how public everything is. If Tide prices their detergent up, and that ends up leaving thousands unsold at supermarkets - yes investors find out...but the average shopper doesn't take notice.
With sports, everyone is so passionate and so involved and so attuned, with their own opinions...that every move is scrutinized. I like to be honest with the background as to why we make the decisions we do. However, I also know that with thousands of decisions to be made every year, it's impossible to have full support from everyone for all of them.
Best I can do is tell you - I've never worked with an owner and team president who want the fan base grown, want real fans here and have given us the tools to hire staff, build relationships and get it done. However, it takes time and painstaking work...and it has to be balanced with running the business so that you can add players and you can improve the team year-to-year. Tough balance to strike...but I can tell you in the office, you have passionate FANS who care about the real fans and want to see it grow just as badly as you do.
It really doesn't matter to me. I'm going to all the games regardless of the price of my seats. And I darn near took a suite for the playoffs for personal use.
The 'lambasting' I'm doing has nothing to do with me or my tickets. And I've said there's nothing wrong with the franchise trying to make as much money as possible.
But, I believe the ownership is missing the forest for the trees. After all these hours worked to tweak every possible scenario, the tiered pricing, the free hot dogs, the F&B cards, and still a good number of diehard fans are priced out with seats empty.
Drop the price of the 12-15k tickets in the sweet spot of purchase price, leave a nearly insignificant of found money on the table, and let your loyal fanbase get in the building.
Devilchuck...thank you for the honest opinions. That was a good read. Agreed on the discounts hurting. I HATE any time we go out with a groupon, living social, offer...and any time we need to do a $25 ticket. The reason I hate it (before I'm accused of being a bad guy), is because i think the MOST important person to the organization is the plan holder, who invests time and money into the team, beyond belief. I like to make decisions protecting them as much as possible. To try to balance the discounts you see, we add more and more the STHs experience. And...that comes with way more work on weekends, "off-nights" etc. Going to seton hall games with people...coming in for locker room tours...don't get me wrong...there are worse things you could do...but when you live at the office...sometimes it's the last place you want to be. BUT, we know it's important to the fans, so we do it.
You have the right perspective. We do some of those discount things now because we do have a young base and we need a way to get them in the building and fill some seats. We WANT them there, don't get me wrong. And we know their $25 is hard earned and they scrape together every penny for it. But we are at that cross-roads where...they can't afford to pay what SHOULD be paid for NHL hockey. It's a tough balance to strike...and we want them to grow with us...so we try to be creative with it. Hopefully I'm still here to see the fruits of the labor of what is going into it...
It really doesn't matter to me. I'm going to all the games regardless of the price of my seats. And I darn near took a suite for the playoffs for personal use.
The 'lambasting' I'm doing has nothing to do with me or my tickets. And I've said there's nothing wrong with the franchise trying to make as much money as possible.
But, I believe the ownership is missing the forest for the trees. After all these hours worked to tweak every possible scenario, the tiered pricing, the free hot dogs, the F&B cards, and still a good number of diehard fans are priced out.
Drop the price of the 12-15k tickets in the sweet spot of purchase price, leave a nearly insignificant of found money on the table, and let your loyal fanbase get in the building.
THAT'S my point.
You're part of the very problem you're complaining about.. if we play the Rangers in round two, you'll be the one flipping your tickets for a quick buck and pricing our fan base out of our building. That's my point.
These prices are pretty fair. Go take a look around the league. Go take a look at franchises younger than us and their playoff prices. It's playoff hockey, prices go up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devs Service Answers
Devilchuck...thank you for the honest opinions. That was a good read. Agreed on the discounts hurting. I HATE any time we go out with a groupon, living social, offer...and any time we need to do a $25 ticket. The reason I hate it (before I'm accused of being a bad guy), is because i think the MOST important person to the organization is the plan holder, who invests time and money into the team, beyond belief. I like to make decisions protecting them as much as possible. To try to balance the discounts you see, we add more and more the STHs experience. And...that comes with way more work on weekends, "off-nights" etc. Going to seton hall games with people...coming in for locker room tours...don't get me wrong...there are worse things you could do...but when you live at the office...sometimes it's the last place you want to be. BUT, we know it's important to the fans, so we do it.
You have the right perspective. We do some of those discount things now because we do have a young base and we need a way to get them in the building and fill some seats. We WANT them there, don't get me wrong. And we know their $25 is hard earned and they scrape together every penny for it. But we are at that cross-roads where...they can't afford to pay what SHOULD be paid for NHL hockey. It's a tough balance to strike...and we want them to grow with us...so we try to be creative with it. Hopefully I'm still here to see the fruits of the labor of what is going into it...
Agreed with the bolded which is why I still think discounts are necessary. Really liked college nights as a cheap way to convince friends to come to games.
Go enjoy the nice weather today because I'm sure you're going to have a lot of work to do this upcoming week
For now, I'll cherish the days where our prices are insignificant compared to Rangers prices and I can go to 3 games for the price of 1 game at MSG. Fun time to be a fan haha
sorry, i forgot to answer about f and b cards. sorry if it wasnt clear in the emails and on the pawp pages, but they can be picked up at either of the first two home games, at the group sales tables across from the fire lounge. leave some time to come early if youre picking one up...just as a heads up. or...come between periods.
sorry, i forgot to answer about f and b cards. sorry if it wasnt clear in the emails and on the pawp pages, but they can be picked up at either of the first two home games, at the group sales tables across from the fire lounge. leave some time to come early if youre picking one up...just as a heads up. or...come between periods.
First off, absolutely the organization cares about a full building. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
There area different levels in defining the term, "cares". Do they want a full building? Of course. Do the want a full building? Meh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devs Service Answers
The 1,000 remaining on TM...sorry, but you don't discount to levels (in the playoffs specifically), that insult the other 15,000 who paid those prices.
I'm not sure I understand this. Your comment seems to suggest that 15,000 paid "those prices" on TM. What percent actually does this?
The hoards buying below face on Stubhub certainly arent.
The Season Ticket Holders certainly arent.
The PAWP sales that you claim are incredibly successful certainly arent.
The people taking advantage of the few minor discounts certainly arent.
So what percent of 17,625 is actually buying on TM?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devs Service Answers
Therefore, unless FANS want to re-sell the very seats they sat in/will sit in, for round 1, the building should be full of DEVILS fans for round 2...even if against the Rangers. If not...it's the fans choosing to make a profit vs. rooting their team on during a great series. But hey, that's their right.
I really think you're completely discounting the large number of PAWP tickets you've sold to both brokers and individuals looking to turn a proft.
Also, at any time when you were creating this pricing structure, did anyone in the meeting raise their hand and ask, "What happens if the Rangers and Bruins both lose in Round 1?" Was that scenario ever war gamed? Because I'll go on record right now as saying that's going to be embarrassing with these R2 prices if it happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeItVeryMuch
I hope that TM number is based off of true number of tickets available.
You can still buy PAWP, so even if one assumes the TM map is accurate, you'd need to know how much PAWP inventory the Devils are currently holding back.
Also, I still have no idea WTH is going on with the mezzanine. I find it hard to believe it's 100% sold out at $82.50 and $100 TM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftwing
Other than to say if you would like to make a gentlemen's side bet on whether there will be many more than 2,000 Rags fans at a R2 matchup PM me. I'll take that bet all day long.
Way more than 2,000.
Geographically close fan base. Rangers prices are even higher due to their unique market, and it's a tough economy. They have 5X the "rental fan" population that the Devils have.
I see your "Economy 101" statement and raise you with "Buyer Psychology 101" - the Rangers fanbase views our tickets as a relative "deal", (compared to MSG tickets) whereas our fanbase views our playoff prices as "expensive".
I'll set the Rangers fans Over/Under at 5,500.
It. Will. Be. Ugly. God bless the Ottawa Senators.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftwing
If you priced tickets so that supply equalled demand this all would have been done on day one and these fans would be in their seats cheering on the team.
Which gets back to them maximizing revenue at the expense of Sold Out games. They're not idiots, and they know exactly what they're doing. To quote Franklin, I believe their strategy is penny-wise and pound-foolish, but as I've said, they cant model "future growth from filled seats" in Excel.
