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Old
04-15-2012, 01:24 PM
  #76
newfr4u
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Bacon, all the programs you listed are at least intermediate level, except for WS4SB. they work, and will all support linear progressions, but IMO beginners should stick with a super-easy-to-comply program instead of doing fancy periodization templates. thus SS over those other ones.

also, SS 3rd edition is much improved in terms of squat and deadlift technique than SS 2nd edition. it's just edited a whole lot more clearly, with better language.

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04-15-2012, 01:55 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
Bacon, all the programs you listed are at least intermediate level, except for WS4SB. they work, and will all support linear progressions, but IMO beginners should stick with a super-easy-to-comply program instead of doing fancy periodization templates. thus SS over those other ones.

also, SS 3rd edition is much improved in terms of squat and deadlift technique than SS 2nd edition. it's just edited a whole lot more clearly, with better language.
No. This is internet strength dogma. I don't know how it started but, in practice, it isn't true. Starting Strength is not the be all and end all of strength programming. While it is true that people have gained considerable amounts of strength using modified versions of 5x5 programming, there are significant draw backs that are under-discussed.

It is boring. When I started out, I did 5x5 for three months before starting to dread doing it. Many people feel the same way. I have had multiple people deviate from it, get bored and quit doing it, or just miss too many workouts. Also, unless you are able to sleep 8 or more hours a night AND get a nap or two in during the day, you also really can't do anything else when squatting 3x a week. This includes playing recreational hockey. If you aren't enjoying what you are doing, what is the point? If you are a weekend warrior, lifting is done in your leisure time. With free time so limited in Norther America, why waste it doing something you don't like? If you NEED to get stronger (maybe you are a professional athlete or something) you should probably see someone and get a custom program anyways.

There are negative side effects. When I did it, I ate a lot. I also got fat. Which sucked, because I had spent years losing over 60 pounds. However, the caloric requirements meant that while I put 100 pounds on lower body lifts, I got fat again. Starting a vicious cycle. Despite internet dogma, it is possible for the average person to gain lean body mass without "bulking." For instance, see Martin Berkhan's concept of "lean gains." I have found that the bulk/cut concept should be left to bodybuilders. While off-season athletes will and should invariably gain weight, it isn't anything like what happens to some on GOMAD and similar protocols.

There are other options. 5/3/1, "The Outlaw Way," and WSBB4SB are all suitable for the novice lifter. They also provide a much greater level of flexibility, especially when it comes to working around real life and beer league hockey games.

I clearly linked to a novice template for 5/3/1. Here it is again, this time in full: http://www.jimwendler.com/2012/02/12...nners-insight/

Furthermore, I have a female athlete who went from 165x5 on the deadlift to 195x6 in under three months. She used a modified version of 5/3/1. She did two lifts at 5/3/1 and then 5 sets of 10 at 50%. Monday was Squat, rear elevated split squat, high bar back squat for 5x10. Tuesday = Bench and snatch grip pendaly row with bench being 5x10. Thursday, Deads and 1 legged romanian deads, 5x8 of deadlifts, Friday = Front Squats and Revse Lunges with front squat 5x10. She also only took the deload week if she needed it (or if she was traveling and didn't think she would get all 4 days in). She also did a lot of midline work either as a warmup or as conditioning. Her diet was pretty good. She did a 2 meal a day fasting protocol of 2200-2400 calories with higher carbs on workout days and ~1900 calories high fat rest days, plus a tub of hagendaz on Saturdays and six pieces of bacon on Sunday. Her macros were based off of ensuring 3g of protein per 1kg of body weight (~58kilo).

Rudy explicitly states that his programming works for new and deconditioned athletes:
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Not at all. In fact, we have seen preposterous gains in the fitness of our “normal” clients for years using nearly these exact same WODs and programming principles [...] As a side note; we use the same “Games movement standards” and strength waves programmed here for our entire gym population. It works just as well with them.
This is also mentioned in the blurb I quoted previously where he states he tried 5/3/1 and his own version of the conjugate method with a group that included new athletes and found a greater success with his own programming. While Rudy isn't really well known outside of the Crossfit community, he is a very very smart guy and his principals easily apply to other aspects of strength and conditioning.

The internet is an interesting place. Someone says something and, for whatever reason, it becomes fact. Nowhere has Jim Wendler, the creator of 5/3/1, said his programming was for advanced lifters only - he states the opposite actually - yet everyone says it is an intermediate program. Same goes for the conjugate method, which probably offers the greatest flexibility as shown by Joe Defranco and Rudy Neilson. Perhaps most important for sport, 5x5 programs offer little room single leg movements - which are, as Mike Boyle has shown, critical for performance and injury prevention.

I highly suggest you read through the links I provided.


Last edited by BaconStrips: 04-15-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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04-15-2012, 02:11 PM
  #78
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starting strength obviously isn't the be all and end all of programming. it just so happens to be that for beginners. doing virtually anything with work for a beginner. this is not news. but a beginner doesn't need fancy periodization. that's all that Rippetoe/SS is saying. it simplifies the problem to the absolute maximum.

if you read SS, rippetoe addresses the importance of recovery (sleep, food, etc.) for doing his lifts. you cannot do SS without rest days and progress for very long. the upside is that per week SS is actually taking less time than other programs. so you have the free time to do other stuff.

if your female athlete's deadlift only gained 30 lbs in three months, than i would put that up against anyone doing SS. 30 pounds on the DL should be at most 3 weeks gains. if you meant that she went from 165 kg to 195 kg, well then she is clearly past novice and needed an intermediate template anyway.

as for lean gains, if you follow the guy's blog, you know that his approach is not centered around strength training, but rather the intermittent fasting diet. he uses programming templates found in whatever his clients want to do, SS/stronglifts/westside/etc. by the way, intermittent fasting is hard as hell, and yes it does work. however, people on caloric deficits don't make strength gains at nearly the same rates as those on caloric surpluses. and martin never said they did.


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04-15-2012, 02:17 PM
  #79
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Adding muscle dropping fat is pretty difficult. You have competing substrates at work there. If you are looking to add mass you are getting started on the big 4. Cleans, bench, squat and deadlift. What I would do if you are serious about adding some muscle is a 3 day a week program. Mon Wed Fri 3 sets 10 reps to failure. Fail on each set. Allow 2 minutes rest to restore about 95 percent of your phosphocreatine levels then another set. What i personally do is drop sets, to failure. This is going to be extremely taxing on your body. Make sure you fuel properly. If you are looking to just focus on a bulk definetly do a carb protein pwo as well as carbs before and during. Personally im cutting so i do no carb diet.. This type of lifting is etremely taxing with that type of diet but the results speak for themselves.
This isn't true. I wanted to test this piece of internet strength dogma out myself so I took 45 days and cut 5% of my bodyfat while gaining strength. I went from 196 pounds to 188 pounds and all of my lifts improved. They didn't improve as fast as if I had bulked BUT I didn't have to spend anytime stagnating while cutting. It also took a pretty meticulous eye on my macros/supplementation/sleep.

Edit: the first 2 weeks were spent figuring out IF for myself and I really didn't make any gains one way or another weight wise.


Last edited by BaconStrips: 04-15-2012 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Clarity
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04-15-2012, 02:17 PM
  #80
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I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Starting Strength is the "be all and end all of strength programming." Just that SS is a great resource for people who are starting out or don't know anything about weightlifting. Even if SS is not the best program in your opinion, it's still a million times better than most bad internet advice, bad gyms, and bad personal trainers. The most important benefit of learning from SS is that it teaches you good technique. I think that's really the main point of SS, not the program itself.

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04-15-2012, 02:35 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
starting strength obviously isn't the be all and end all of programming. it just so happens to be that for beginners. doing virtually anything with work for a beginner. this is not news. but a beginner doesn't need that sort of periodization. that's all that Rippetoe/SS is saying. it simplifies the problem to the absolute maximum.

if you read SS, rippetoe addresses the importance of recovery (sleep, food, etc.) for doing his lifts. you cannot do SS without rest days and progress for very long. the upside is that per week SS is actually taking less time than other programs. so you have the free time to do other stuff.

if your female athlete's deadlift only gained 30 lbs in three months, than i would put that up against anyone doing SS. 30 pounds on the DL should be at most 3 weeks gains. if you meant that she went from 165 kg to 195 kg, well then she is clearly past novice and needed an intermediate template anyway.

as for lean gains, if you follow the guy's blog, you know that his approach is not centered around strength training, but rather the intermittent fasting diet. he uses programming templates found in whatever his clients want to do, SS/stronglifts/westside/etc. by the way, intermittent fasting is hard as hell, and yes it does work. however, people on caloric deficits don't make strength gains at nearly the same rates as those on caloric surpluses. and martin never said they did.
I have read the Second Edition of Starting Strength three times. I have also read the 2nd Edition of Pratical Programming twice. I have the third edition but haven't read it yet. I have also a read a plethora of books NOT written by Mark Rippetoe.

So you are saying that <130 pound female whose hypothetical 1 rep max deadlift went from 198 pounds to 227 pounds (while losing bodyfat) is not a good gain? How many female clients have you worked with? These are hypothetical numbers based on a 5rep and 6rep work sets. More importantly, she is likely capable of pulling over 100 pounds her bodyweight and is pretty close to a theoretical 2x bodyweight deadlift. According to Mark Rippetoes own "Strength Standards" she is closing in on "elite" numbers. Her gains for the 3 cycles of 5/3/1 are the equivalent of 70-90 pounds for a guy. In November, her deadlift was 155. November to March she went from novice to nearly elite. She tried SS for three weeks and hated it.

Martin Berkhan, "the guy from lean gains" has a deadlift over 600 pounds. I currently IF. It is the easiest "diet" I have ever done. When I started, I lost 5% of my bodyfat and went from 196 pounds to 188 pounds with 2.5 inches off of my waste. I also made gains in all of my lifts. And it wasn't like I was eating like **** before hand. He also talks about "reverse pyramid training" which is somewhat a simplified version of many different things while also something entirely different.

Furthermore, if you consider that MOST PEOPLE don't want to look like a fat power lifter bulking and cutting isn't practical. Also, while someone doing IF will gain slower, they also won't spend time cutting and stagnating. Thus, they end up with the same net gains WITHOUT being miserable cutting weight and not getting stronger. Starting Strength makes people strong, but also fat and/or bored.

MORE IMPORTANTLY: The average person CANNOT follow starting strength AND play hockey/other sports more than once or twice a week AT THE SAME TIME.


Last edited by BaconStrips: 04-15-2012 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Clarity
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04-15-2012, 02:44 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by qmechanic View Post
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Starting Strength is the "be all and end all of strength programming." Just that SS is a great resource for people who are starting out or don't know anything about weightlifting. Even if SS is not the best program in your opinion, it's still a million times better than most bad internet advice, bad gyms, and bad personal trainers. The most important benefit of learning from SS is that it teaches you good technique. I think that's really the main point of SS, not the program itself.
That is why I recommend Wendler's e-book, which breaks down the lifts. I would quote from the book, but that is a substantial portion of something that I think people should pay for. However, the two page bullet point descriptions have been more useful to me then anything found in the 2nd edition of Starting Strength. Wendler breaks the lifts down to the simplest aspects and CLEARLY defines the movement. When doing the lifts AND coaching the lifts, I find myself mentally thinking of Wendler over Rippetoe. Maybe the third edition of Starting Strength is better, but it looks pretty verbose, which I appreciate but could see overwhelming someone.

Starting Strength - as it as been outlined in this thread/on the internet - is good for weak/skinny people who want to get strong NOT for people who want to strength train to improve athletic performance OR do physical activities besides Starting Strength.

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04-16-2012, 02:18 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by BaconStrips View Post
So you are saying that <130 pound female whose hypothetical 1 rep max deadlift went from 198 pounds to 227 pounds (while losing bodyfat) is not a good gain? How many female clients have you worked with? These are hypothetical numbers based on a 5rep and 6rep work sets. More importantly, she is likely capable of pulling over 100 pounds her bodyweight and is pretty close to a theoretical 2x bodyweight deadlift. According to Mark Rippetoes own "Strength Standards" she is closing in on "elite" numbers. Her gains for the 3 cycles of 5/3/1 are the equivalent of 70-90 pounds for a guy. In November, her deadlift was 155. November to March she went from novice to nearly elite. She tried SS for three weeks and hated it.
first of all, the chart you linked is not the end all and be all of strength gains. it describes how you may stack up against people of similar weight. it has nothing to do with programming. you don't automatically go to elite programming when you cross XXX lbs on the deadlift. it's simply a measure of where you fall in the population.

secondly, no i don't think 227 lbs 1RM for a 130 lbs female is any sort of limit. i think that number is attainable for almost everyone, and well within the range of your beginner linear gains. my girlfriend weighs just about 110 and pulls 150x5 with virtually no training or weekly workouts. she does yoga several times a week, and does an SS-style workout once every two weeks or so on average. 2x bodyweight on the deadlift while you are skinny is really not that hard.

i don't know your female athlete, or what sports she does, or how much she eats to cut fat. but i am fairly confident that she can pull DLs once or twice a week, while adding 5 lbs every workout, and go from 165->195 in 6 workouts (say 4 weeks). that's a substantially shorter timeframe than 3 months at what looks like 4-5 days/week training. if she feels that she will gain too much fat during those 4 weeks that she can't easily lose in the next 4 weeks, fine. that's her personal preference and choice. so congrats, you've achieved slower progress.

Quote:
Martin Berkhan, "the guy from lean gains" has a deadlift over 600 pounds. I currently IF. It is the easiest "diet" I have ever done. When I started, I lost 5% of my bodyfat and went from 196 pounds to 188 pounds with 2.5 inches off of my waste. I also made gains in all of my lifts. And it wasn't like I was eating like **** before hand. He also talks about "reverse pyramid training" which is somewhat a simplified version of many different things while also something entirely different.
not sure why you quoted "the guy from lean gains". i didn't use that language, i am very familiar with him and his works. his methods are great, but not suited for beginners. if not eating for 16 hours and then working out is your thing, great. most people can't do that, much less play hockey on top of that. if eating two lbs of deli meat and entire coffeecakes during refeeds is also something you enjoy, sure leangains may be the easiest diet for you. i can't do that. i suck like that. i miss my caloric goals more often than not as it is.

but ultimately leangains is just a high-protein modified fast. they are still trying to progress on a deficit or at maintenance. it won't make you gain fat, but it will also slow your strength gains.

if your goal is to make weight, you need to stay on some kind of diet or fast.
if your goal is to gain strength as fast as possible, you need to eat at a surplus and lift heavy.
i really don't understand what you have against starting strength.

Quote:
Furthermore, if you consider that MOST PEOPLE don't want to look like a fat power lifter bulking and cutting isn't practical. Also, while someone doing IF will gain slower, they also won't spend time cutting and stagnating. Thus, they end up with the same net gains WITHOUT being miserable cutting weight and not getting stronger. Starting Strength makes people strong, but also fat and/or bored.
so now you are attacking how rippetoe looks? btw, he looks great for however old he is. you also don't need to cut. it's completely upto you whether you want to do SS on a 500 calorie surplus or 2500 calorie surplus. Obese people do SS on huge deficits and drop BF% at good rates until their progress slows.

i don't agree with the bored argument either, but whatever. that's your personal issue. if you don't like a program and can't stick to it because of it, go ahead and choose something else.

Quote:
MORE IMPORTANTLY: The average person CANNOT follow starting strength AND play hockey/other sports more than once or twice a week AT THE SAME TIME.
ahh, the crux of the matter. at the beginning stages of SS, while you are a true novice, this is ENTIRELY possible. it only becomes an issue when squats and deadlifts become so heavy and taxing that you need whole rest days.

and furthermore, this will be true with ALMOST ANY lifting program. you can't squat and deadlift heavy with Wendler, or Stronglifts, and expend major energy during hockey season/games. EVERYTHING you do will slow your progress. i think this point is obvious.

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04-16-2012, 03:03 PM
  #84
Jarick
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Hi BaconStrips!

Thanks for the advice and information. I think maybe this is a good all-purpose weightlifting thread.

I am familiar with 5/3/1 and have read Martin @ LeanGains EXTENSIVELY, part of what got me steered towards heavy compound lifting. In the past, I've done all kinds of random crap from P90X to kettlebells to bodyweight workouts, and I saw no progress and got bored.

Starting Strength is probably the first workout I've done which actually makes me WANT to work out. Yeah the workouts are tough as hell and getting harder every time, but I'm getting a lot closer to my goals.

Right now I'm doing nothing but weightlifting 3x a week. My winter season is over and summer doesn't start for 6-8 weeks. My short term goal is to just get up to a good base level of strength, at least 2 plates for squat and deadlift and at least one plate bench. I haven't touched a stick in weeks and won't for weeks. That's fine. I needed a mental break from hockey, playing almost every week for six years.

Once I hit that level of strength, I plan on dropping my workout intensity, likely to 2x per week, possibly adding in sprints or hills, and focus on shedding fat through the start of summer hockey. I'll probably look at either 5/3/1 or just a variation of SS with squats once a week.

Long term I don't give a crap about benching 300 or squatting 3x bodyweight or anything. I just want a decent amount of strength and muscle with body fat in the low teens and to generally be free of injury and disease. At 5'8 with 145 lean mass, adding another 10-15 pounds muscle and dropping to 175-180 bodyweight should set me up nicely for hockey and life.

The other half is getting my diet cleaned up and nailed down. These past few weeks I've added a few pounds of muscle and a few pounds of fat, and at my BF% that means I'm overeating. So I'm trying to figure that part out while keeping my 3x5 workouts religiously. And that will be more important in 4-6 weeks when I shift from building strength to burning fat.

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04-16-2012, 04:58 PM
  #85
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Figured I'd post my leg workout, maybe someone can take something from it. I've seen very nice improvements in my stride since working on my legs.


• Isometric Deadlift (Try these!!! They're amazing. Youtube)***
• Single Leg Box Squat
• Single Leg Squat
• Barbell Squat (medium stance)
• Deadlift (would prefer trap bar but my gym doesn't have)
• Calf Raises (standing and seated)

For the rest of the body parts, I do a lot of Compound lifts. Bench Press, Military Press, Bent Over Rows (underhand and regular grips), Landmine Press etc.,


***The video you see on the web is deceiving. It looks like they're using 45lb plates but they're in fact using Crossfit Bumper plates. I squat 405lbs. 1RM but I keep the Isometric deadlift to just 25lb. plates. The isometric deadlift is more about the resistance that makes it burn than the amount of weight you do.


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04-16-2012, 06:57 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
first of all, the chart you linked is not the end all and be all of strength gains. it describes how you may stack up against people of similar weight. it has nothing to do with programming. you don't automatically go to elite programming when you cross XXX lbs on the deadlift. it's simply a measure of where you fall in the population.

secondly, no i don't think 227 lbs 1RM for a 130 lbs female is any sort of limit. i think that number is attainable for almost everyone, and well within the range of your beginner linear gains. my girlfriend weighs just about 110 and pulls 150x5 with virtually no training or weekly workouts. she does yoga several times a week, and does an SS-style workout once every two weeks or so on average. 2x bodyweight on the deadlift while you are skinny is really not that hard.

i don't know your female athlete, or what sports she does, or how much she eats to cut fat. but i am fairly confident that she can pull DLs once or twice a week, while adding 5 lbs every workout, and go from 165->195 in 6 workouts (say 4 weeks). that's a substantially shorter timeframe than 3 months at what looks like 4-5 days/week training. if she feels that she will gain too much fat during those 4 weeks that she can't easily lose in the next 4 weeks, fine. that's her personal preference and choice. so congrats, you've achieved slower progress.



not sure why you quoted "the guy from lean gains". i didn't use that language, i am very familiar with him and his works. his methods are great, but not suited for beginners. if not eating for 16 hours and then working out is your thing, great. most people can't do that, much less play hockey on top of that. if eating two lbs of deli meat and entire coffeecakes during refeeds is also something you enjoy, sure leangains may be the easiest diet for you. i can't do that. i suck like that. i miss my caloric goals more often than not as it is.

but ultimately leangains is just a high-protein modified fast. they are still trying to progress on a deficit or at maintenance. it won't make you gain fat, but it will also slow your strength gains.

if your goal is to make weight, you need to stay on some kind of diet or fast.
if your goal is to gain strength as fast as possible, you need to eat at a surplus and lift heavy.
i really don't understand what you have against starting strength.


so now you are attacking how rippetoe looks? btw, he looks great for however old he is. you also don't need to cut. it's completely upto you whether you want to do SS on a 500 calorie surplus or 2500 calorie surplus. Obese people do SS on huge deficits and drop BF% at good rates until their progress slows.

i don't agree with the bored argument either, but whatever. that's your personal issue. if you don't like a program and can't stick to it because of it, go ahead and choose something else.



ahh, the crux of the matter. at the beginning stages of SS, while you are a true novice, this is ENTIRELY possible. it only becomes an issue when squats and deadlifts become so heavy and taxing that you need whole rest days.

and furthermore, this will be true with ALMOST ANY lifting program. you can't squat and deadlift heavy with Wendler, or Stronglifts, and expend major energy during hockey season/games. EVERYTHING you do will slow your progress. i think this point is obvious.
How many females have you trained past a 225 pound deadlift? Seriously, I don't think you quite understand the physiological differences between male and female bodies. The curve for girls comes in quickly and sticking points appear. Check out the starting strength forum, many women discuss the need for fractional plates or weighted washers rather quickly. I never said it was a limit, I just used the chart to state her progress over a thirty day period was akin to what a male on starting strength is expected to make. I linked the chart because you discredited a ~30 pound increase in 10 weeks. I pointed out what that thirty pound increase meant according to the very book you continue to cite. I was stating that I prefer 5/3/1 for all athletes and have had similar results modifying it for individuals, I then cited an example. Honestly, how many females do you personally know who deadlift 300 pounds while weighing under 135 pounds? More importantly, how many do you know who have done it in a year without gaining a significant amount of bodyfat?

You are also missing my point entirely when you say "she feels that she will gain too much fat during those 4 weeks that she can't easily lose in the next 4 weeks, fine. that's her personal preference and choice. so congrats, you've achieved slower progress." No, I haven't. The actual timeframe was 10 weeks. Two weeks longer than what you predict - with no real world experience of your own mind you - if you include a cut. Something I don't think athletes (NOT POWER LIFTERS) should ever do. While some bulking/cutting occurs naturally with season periodization, outright planning for it is an unnecessary tax on the body.

If you want a comparison you can understand (you know a dude) I have a guy who went from 185x5 backsquat to 255x5 in two months. He did SS for a month or so to get to 185 and then switched to a 5/3/1 because it allowed me to work with his weaknesness and prepare him for his personal athletic pursuits WHILE gaining strength. He also made better gains on 5/3/1. I used the female athlete because I actually think her increases are more impressive. A guy can do dick all and should be able to get to a 315 single in a 3 to 6 months.

The Bulk/Cut cycle is an outdated approach for athletic purposes and should be left to power-lifters and body builders. Bulking and cutting for athletes is in season / out of season. Lean gains is perfectly suited to novice recomps, granted they either know what they are doing OR have someone who knows what they are doing guiding them. However, I wouldn't recommend it for someone starting from scratch because it doesn't teach healthy life habits. But once someone is comfortable with a few basics - fish oil everyday, 4 to 6 healthy meals, following some sort of macro-guideline, it is a pretty good way of doing things. You also don't have to train fully fasted. I eat, go to bed, wake up, workout for a couple of hours, sip BCAA's for a couple of hours, make a meal, eat it. Repeat. Others have a pre-workout meal. He has quite a few formulas.

It may slow strength gains down (it hasn't in my experience) but you don't need to cut with it. Like I said earlier, if you count the bulk/cut cycle it is pretty close. You can also make significant gains with it if you eat above maintenance levels. Basically, it makes the body more efficient.

I don't have anything against starting strength. I was opposed to you calling the other programs I listed "advanced" programs, when their own authors say they are for everyone. I am also opposed to the belief that Starting Strength is the best option for the novice. It isn't. It is an option, one that I have found, only really works best for the completely untrained individual whose only goal is to get as strong as possible. I got strong with it, but I also gained bodyfat. Now working with others, I have tried out other methodologies and found that, through experience, it is possible to get similar or better gains with other programs/diets - ESPECIALLY IF YOU DISAGREE WITH BULKING AND CUTTING. Starting Strength also has no room for SPORT SPECIFIC training and injury prevention. What's the point of deadlifting 565 pounds if you are just going to tear an ACL as soon as you hit the ice for the nooner shinny game?

Stronglifts is Starting Strength. They are all 5x5 programs. The beauty of 5/3/1 is it accounts for fatigue with both deload weeks AND the "as many reps as possible" final set. The flexibility of the accessory work is icing on the cake.

And no, Rippetoe doesn't look great. But that is neither here nor there. I could have put up a picture of Dave Tate (pre-Berardi et all intervention(s) or someone similar. As for boredom, it is personal preference, but I have found people get bored with it quickly. Others want to workout more often than the program allows.

Here are some books I suggest you read:
Functional Training for Sports by Micheal Boyle
Athletic Development Vern Gambetta
Show and Go: High Performance Training to Look, Feel, and Move Better by Eric Cressy.
The Ultimate Off Season Training Manual by Eric Cressy
The Westside Book of Methods by Louie Simmons (Although you can find most of it scattered throughout various articles)

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04-16-2012, 07:18 PM
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Hi BaconStrips!

Thanks for the advice and information. I think maybe this is a good all-purpose weightlifting thread.

I am familiar with 5/3/1 and have read Martin @ LeanGains EXTENSIVELY, part of what got me steered towards heavy compound lifting. In the past, I've done all kinds of random crap from P90X to kettlebells to bodyweight workouts, and I saw no progress and got bored.

Starting Strength is probably the first workout I've done which actually makes me WANT to work out. Yeah the workouts are tough as hell and getting harder every time, but I'm getting a lot closer to my goals.

Right now I'm doing nothing but weightlifting 3x a week. My winter season is over and summer doesn't start for 6-8 weeks. My short term goal is to just get up to a good base level of strength, at least 2 plates for squat and deadlift and at least one plate bench. I haven't touched a stick in weeks and won't for weeks. That's fine. I needed a mental break from hockey, playing almost every week for six years.

Once I hit that level of strength, I plan on dropping my workout intensity, likely to 2x per week, possibly adding in sprints or hills, and focus on shedding fat through the start of summer hockey. I'll probably look at either 5/3/1 or just a variation of SS with squats once a week.

Long term I don't give a crap about benching 300 or squatting 3x bodyweight or anything. I just want a decent amount of strength and muscle with body fat in the low teens and to generally be free of injury and disease. At 5'8 with 145 lean mass, adding another 10-15 pounds muscle and dropping to 175-180 bodyweight should set me up nicely for hockey and life.

The other half is getting my diet cleaned up and nailed down. These past few weeks I've added a few pounds of muscle and a few pounds of fat, and at my BF% that means I'm overeating. So I'm trying to figure that part out while keeping my 3x5 workouts religiously. And that will be more important in 4-6 weeks when I shift from building strength to burning fat.
Long term your goals should be injury prevention first, performance second. In this regard, I recommend looking into something more geared towards athletic pursuits, likely with a focus on single leg movements. While I do not believe unilateral movements are the be all / end all as some do. I think they play an important role in longevity.

Something along the lines of:
Day 1:
Warmup: A combination of a run AND/OR skipping (I really recommend skipping a couple times a week for foot speed), broad jumps, box jumps for height (dont go all out), walking lunges, spider lunges, box jumps, static stretching.
Low Bar Back Squat: following 5/3/1 template BUT adding extra warmup sets. The "5" day would look like this - 10xBar focusing on perfect technique 10@50%, 8@55%, 5@65%, 5@65%, 5@75%, as many as possible@85%
Rear Elevated Split Squat (Or Split Squat if you aren't there yet) 5 sets of 8-12 at a manageable weight. Should slowly progress every week either in reps or weight. Start slow.
Front Squat: 5 sets of 5 at 65% for the first week, 75% the second week, 85% the third week.

Day 2:
Warm up: Similar to day 1 but focus on chest. I really recommend skipping over running this day. Scorpions. Push up variations. TRX or Supine Pull ups. Chins/Pulls if you are competent so a set is a warmup.
Bench Press: Same as Low-Bar Squat
Pull Ups: 5 sets of as many as you can do. If you pass 10 with ease, add weight.
Wide Grip Row: Same as front squat.

Rest

Day 3:
Warmup: Similar to Day 1 BUT make sure you do either broad jumps or box jumps.
Power Clean: Warm up. Take your time and focus on perfect technique. Work up to 5 sets of 3 similar to the front squat. But use 75%, 85%, 95% progressing each week. Do not rush the sets. You should reset between each power clean. Dropping the weight is fine.
Deadlift: Same as Back Squat.
1 Legged Straight Leg Roman Deadlift. 5 working sets of 6-8. Go up either in reps or weight each week.

Day 4: Warmup similar to Day 2 but make sure you use some bands to stretch out your shoulders.
Strict Press: Same format as Squat
Chins/Dips (on rings if you can/have them): Same as pull ups. Do chins one week, ring dips the next. Or do both if you have time/energy.
Push Press: Same as Front Squat.

Follow 5/3/1 rep scheme where noted. Take a deload week every fourth week only if you feel you need it. For the 65%/75%/85% sets assume 10 pounds each month for lower body, 5 pounds for upper body. So if you are basing your front squat off of 225, next month/cycle assume it is 235.

After three months/cycles switch the lifts around.

Edit: If this is appealing to you, PM me. I can help you out more/write up the program for you. If I had your strength numbers, it would be easier. I would just write out 3 months of exactly what you should do. I also didn't include conditioning. If you are genuinely interested, I can include those as well. Most focus on the mid-line and bodyweight movements + Sprints + heart-rate manipulation.


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04-17-2012, 09:48 AM
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Well I'm a single dad with joint custody, so working out more than 2x per week is an unbelievable struggle. Believe me, 3x workouts are going to be short-term, unless someone wins the lottery on my behalf and I can afford to skip work to go to the gym.

Long-term I do plan on doing more single-leg and single-arm movements. But not now. I'm not going to skip and dance from workout to workout every two weeks because I read something was better. I'm committed to this now, and in a few months I'll worry about something else.

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04-17-2012, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Well I'm a single dad with joint custody, so working out more than 2x per week is an unbelievable struggle. Believe me, 3x workouts are going to be short-term, unless someone wins the lottery on my behalf and I can afford to skip work to go to the gym.

Long-term I do plan on doing more single-leg and single-arm movements. But not now. I'm not going to skip and dance from workout to workout every two weeks because I read something was better. I'm committed to this now, and in a few months I'll worry about something else.
Just remember, your body gets used to workouts/routines/exercises. Switching things up is GOOD.

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04-17-2012, 11:19 AM
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Sure, after a few months, but not a few weeks! I'm on week four now. I plan on switching once my weights stall.

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04-17-2012, 01:54 PM
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BaconS, thanks for posting that. as far as i can tell, you read a bunch of books (most of which i've already read, including Eric Cressey's, and most of which are NOT for novice sports), and decided to create a program out of all of them. ok more power to you.

it's a mishmash that's not completely terrible, as it does involve all the same lifts, but you have multiple variations of squats scheduled on the same day, cleans and deadlifts on the same day, different presses on the same day. that's a more advanced program than novice. it adds volume and prevents you from going up in weight as fast. novices make faster progress if they focus on strength (measured as 1RPM) than volume. this is not outdated knowledge, it's the way it is. sorry you don't see it that way. maybe try reading one book at a time.

bulk/cut is also not outdated. is extreme bulk then extreme cut like the bodybuilders do for everyone? of course not. however, it does not negate the laws of thermodynamics. to add mass (muscle and fat alike), you will need to eat above your maintenance. to lose mass (muscle and fat alike), you need to eat below your maintenance. if your goal is to stay at the same weight or lose it, you obviously have to adjust how much you eat. however, losing weight is not the point of starting strength. its caloric recommendations are to promote linear novice strength gains for as long as possible. that alone is the biggest factor in making novices more athletic. if you feel like you need to cut fat and add conditioning, go right ahead. just realize that it will slow your strength gains. as far as i can remember, i did not recommend anyone go balls to the wall crazy with calories (like GOMAD). however, Jarick is still at a weight where he can safely add 20 lbs if it means he is stronger. and so am I. (on this note: i am going to go drink a quart of chocolate milk right now).

Quote:
I am also opposed to the belief that Starting Strength is the best option for the novice. It isn't. It is an option, one that I have found, only really works best for the completely untrained individual whose only goal is to get as strong as possible. I got strong with it, but I also gained bodyfat. Now working with others, I have tried out other methodologies and found that, through experience, it is possible to get similar or better gains with other programs/diets - ESPECIALLY IF YOU DISAGREE WITH BULKING AND CUTTING. Starting Strength also has no room for SPORT SPECIFIC training and injury prevention. What's the point of deadlifting 565 pounds if you are just going to tear an ACL as soon as you hit the ice for the nooner shinny game?
and this is just pure drivel. if you want to do sports with SS, you are allowed to. it is only the principles of training economy (and hormones that you are on) that dictate how much training you can do and still increase your strength. also name one person who tore an acl in a shinny game after deadlifting 565? gaining strength not only increases your muscles, but also strengthens your ligaments. squats and deadlifts being compound lifts hit all the major ligaments in your posterior chain. why do you think sport specific training is somehow better for preventing acl tears?

mugs, switching up is mostly bro-science. when my body gets used to the squat, i just throw another 10 lbs on the bar. that keeps my muscles sufficiently confused. but then again, maybe i am just dumb enough not to be bored by SS.


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04-17-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BaconStrips View Post
How many females have you trained past a 225 pound deadlift? Seriously, I don't think you quite understand the physiological differences between male and female bodies. The curve for girls comes in quickly and sticking points appear. Check out the starting strength forum, many women discuss the need for fractional plates or weighted washers rather quickly. I never said it was a limit, I just used the chart to state her progress over a thirty day period was akin to what a male on starting strength is expected to make. I linked the chart because you discredited a ~30 pound increase in 10 weeks. I pointed out what that thirty pound increase meant according to the very book you continue to cite. I was stating that I prefer 5/3/1 for all athletes and have had similar results modifying it for individuals, I then cited an example. Honestly, how many females do you personally know who deadlift 300 pounds while weighing under 135 pounds? More importantly, how many do you know who have done it in a year without gaining a significant amount of bodyfat?
there is some sweet delicious irony here, as you somehow made a "hypothetical" (i.e. calculated) 227 lb deadlift into elite category, when according to the chart elite is 270. and now you are talking about 300? those are not all the same goalposts.

a minor nit point to another thing you said, SS is not 5x5, but 3x5.

sticking points appear with everyone. SS addresses that via resets. It also addresses microloading.

i can completely understand the need for microloading some lifts (like the overhead press, or even the clean), and i think females being more risk-averse tend to underload, while males tend to overload. however, if anyone (male or female) ever uses microplates to load their linear gains deadlift while eating normally (not on a severe deficit), i will laugh in their face.

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04-17-2012, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
BaconS, thanks for posting that. as far as i can tell, you read a bunch of books (most of which i've already read, including Eric Cressey's, and most of which are NOT for novice sports), and decided to create a program out of all of them. ok more power to you.

it's a mishmash that's not completely terrible, as it does involve all the same lifts, but you have multiple variations of squats scheduled on the same day, cleans and deadlifts on the same day, different presses on the same day. that's a more advanced program than novice. it adds volume and prevents you from going up in weight as fast. novices make faster progress if they focus on strength (measured as 1RPM) than volume. this is not outdated knowledge, it's the way it is. sorry you don't see it that way. maybe try reading one book at a time.

bulk/cut is also not outdated. is extreme bulk then extreme cut like the bodybuilders do for everyone? of course not. however, it does not negate the laws of thermodynamics. to add mass (muscle and fat alike), you will need to eat above your maintenance. to lose mass (muscle and fat alike), you need to eat below your maintenance. if your goal is to stay at the same weight or lose it, you obviously have to adjust how much you eat. however, losing weight is not the point of starting strength. its caloric recommendations are to promote linear novice strength gains for as long as possible. that alone is the biggest factor in making novices more athletic. if you feel like you need to cut fat and add conditioning, go right ahead. just realize that it will slow your strength gains. as far as i can remember, i did not recommend anyone go balls to the wall crazy with calories (like GOMAD). however, Jarick is still at a weight where he can safely add 20 lbs if it means he is stronger. and so am I. (on this note: i am going to go drink a quart of chocolate milk right now).



and this is just pure drivel. if you want to do sports with SS, you are allowed to. it is only the principles of training economy (and hormones that you are on) that dictate how much training you can do and still increase your strength. also name one person who tore an acl in a shinny game after deadlifting 565? gaining strength not only increases your muscles, but also strengthens your ligaments. squats and deadlifts being compound lifts hit all the major ligaments in your posterior chain. why do you think sport specific training is somehow better for preventing acl tears?

mugs, switching up is mostly bro-science. when my body gets used to the squat, i just throw another 10 lbs on the bar. that keeps my muscles sufficiently confused. but then again, maybe i am just dumb enough not to be bored by SS.
That is a variation of a program I have used with athletes. What I posted does not include the full warm up, or the progressive plyometric/midline portion (something that should be tailored workout by workout). I have taken the elements I have found work best from a plethora of sources. I have already posted links/books that support 1: squatting multiple times on the same day and 2: using the power clean as a warmup for the deadlift. Its not like you are doing a max front squat and a max back squat. 5/3/1 stresses always leaving one rep in the tank. The other two lifts are accessory and should be changed regularly. If you haven't power cleaned (or just cleaned) before deadlifts, I really recommend trying it. Especially if your sticking point is power off of the floor. I got the idea from Wendler's e-book, probably also read it somewhere else, and love it.

Because of the way 5/3/1 works, it DOES NOT prevent you from going up in weight. If you are making monster gains, just keep hitting as many reps as possible. More importantly, I exchange tonnage volume for movement volume, which will build proper motor patterns and allows for greater flexibility in training paradigms without taxing the CNS to the point of exhaustion.

Again. What works for one extremely dedicated person might not work for other people. I have found the greatest stumbling block is that most people I work with WANT to lift weights more than three times a week. I lift 5x a week. Days I don't, I lack focus.

SS is not designed for sports. It does not have the flexibility to incorporate sport specific movements and movements for injury prevention. It does not address the lack of mobility even advanced athletes have. One kid - a hockey player - could back squat 315 to almost BUT NOT quite break the plain. He couldn't take 135 down that low. He hadn't really squatted before. Obviously I am not going to put him on SS - but he was a "novice lifter" - someone you say should be doing it.

I have tried to avoid personal examples - coaching someone else IS NOT the same as coaching yourself - BUT you asked for injury. I was pulling in the 400s for reps easy and completely wrecked myself playing recreational field sports. To the point where I couldn't workout for months. Guess how I got there? SS and only SS. No single leg stuff. Why? My lifts were continuing to go up, I was going to hit the 500/400/300 club and it was going to be sweet. I was doing everything I was told to by the book/internet. While recovering, I became interested in Boyle's stuff and realized I had approached strength training for athletics completely backwards. Now when I see the same advice I blindly followed based off of the internet, it raises my hackles. Almost one year later since and I am getting back to where I was BUT I am 30 pounds lighter and much more rounded (bodyfat is maybe 5%-7% difference.) If someone wanted to gain strength as fast as possible with no other considerations, I would do a modified version of starting strength (probably add in a directed recovery day with deloaded weight and different movements). If I could do everything over again, I would have avoided starting strength, worked with someone to develop a specific program based on my needs and weaknesses and carefully progressed while minimizing weight gain.

Single leg training is necessary (not better) for athletic development. I can't summarize the work of Boyle, Gambetta, and so forth anymore then their many, many articles can: Here is a link to a brief article that touches on why it is important.

From that article, here is the number one reason I believe in single leg training as essential work:
Quote:
When we stand on one leg, as in a one leg squat, we engage three muscles that we don't use in a two leg squat. I know some will say we use the adductors because the knees move apart in the descent, but this isn't the same. The key to the lateral sub-system is that we engage these additional muscles in their normal role of stabilizers, not as movers.
While I don't agree with the belief that single leg should supersede the standard compound movements, I do think it is CRITICAL to include them in any strength program for an athlete and, based on my experiences, not doing so is dangerous and unprofessional. Here is an article that directly discusses HOW TO program to avoid ACL injuries. You should be able to deadlift at least 50% on one leg as what you can on two. (I can't because I am obviously a hypocrite).

As for diet - I recommend taking the precision nutrition certification offered by John Berardi. I don't want to get into specifics because I believe diet is an extremely individual thing and want to avoid broad claims, but it really opened my eyes to the way I approached food/eating. For athletic purposes - playing hockey - I would rather add 5 pounds of functional muscle over 20 pounds of bulk. For anecdotal evidence, read about Jerome Iginla talking about getting too bulky in the offseason. For most sports, there is a sweet spot between strength/size/function and how it correlates to performance.

As for my other claims, I said 227 is closing in on elite (263 for someone under 132 pounds). I said I have 300 programmed for within 12 months of starting. And I said she would hit it barring injury. She isn't allowed to do a max effort single until I KNOW she will pull over 260. Still, I ask if you have worked with anyone and seen similar results? Using yourself as an example doesn't count. The male equivalent would be from novice to around 280-315 for reps. In under 5 months total. While losing bodyfat.

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04-17-2012, 04:24 PM
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Single leg training is necessary (not better) for athletic development. I can't summarize the work of Boyle, Gambetta, and so forth anymore then their many, many articles can: Here is a link to a brief article that touches on why it is important.
great article! I get a lot of people looking at me like im crazy in the gym while I do several one-legged movements.

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04-17-2012, 04:27 PM
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04-17-2012, 04:46 PM
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Bacon,

stop. try to distill your understanding of what you read, instead of trying to achieve everything at once. here's a quote from the FIRST PARAGRAPH of your ACL link.

Quote:
The program we use for ACL injury prevention is actually the same program we use with everyone! The truth is ACL injury prevention programs often consist more of packaging than new concepts. Calling a program an ACL prevention program may be nothing more than a way into the head of the athletic trainer, physical therapist or coach.
basically, warmup, work on strength, work on mobility. add some jumps. none of this is in any way contradictory to starting strength, or is in any way a unique feature of 5/3/1, westside, or anything else. warmup and mobility is a part of almost any workout and/or program. i don't see where you get the idea that SS does not allow for that type of work.

as for your hockey player example, if i understand you correctly, he can't squat to parallel? that's a mobility issue, not a reason to take him off SS. hell, if he can't squat, why even put him on 5/3/1? a program that requires being able to do squats? i think he needs to spend a week doing good lacrosse ball rolling sessions and the bottom of the squat drill from SS, and he'll probably squat to parallel just fine.

single leg stuff is fine. i grew up on it because i was a skater since age 4 and we didn't have fancy things like barbells. that meant a lot of lunges and one-legged squats. the biggest issue is progressive load. you just can't add weight to it like you can with a barbell. if you rest your leg on something else, or touch a wall for balance, you are hindering the progression as well, as it can easily mislead how much weight you are actually moving.

Quote:
227 is closing in on elite (263 for someone under 132 pounds)
no it's not. going from 185->225 is way easier than going from 225->265. that part should also be obvious.

to answer your persistent questions, i don't train anyone. i work out with other people, some of whom are college athletes, some are high school, some are women, some are novices, and some are elite. some are powerlifters and some are athletes. i think personal trainers are a shady bunch, but then again i read and trust a lot of the works by respected personal trainers. so whatever. there are smarter people out there than me, and i never want to work in the industry. everything i do and learn is to train myself, not anyone else.


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04-17-2012, 05:40 PM
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Bacon,

stop. try to distill your understanding of what you read, instead of trying to achieve everything at once. here's a quote from the FIRST PARAGRAPH of your ACL link.



basically, warmup, work on strength, work on mobility. add some jumps. none of this is in any way contradictory to starting strength, or is in any way a unique feature of 5/3/1, westside, or anything else. warmup and mobility is a part of almost any workout and/or program. i don't see where you get the idea that SS does not allow for that type of work.

as for your hockey player example, if i understand you correctly, he can't squat to parallel? that's a mobility issue, not a reason to take him off SS. hell, if he can't squat, why even put him on 5/3/1? a program that requires being able to do squats? i think he needs to spend a week doing good lacrosse ball rolling sessions and the bottom of the squat drill from SS, and he'll probably squat to parallel just fine.

single leg stuff is fine. i grew up on it because i was a skater since age 4 and we didn't have fancy things like barbells. that meant a lot of lunges and one-legged squats. the biggest issue is progressive load. you just can't add weight to it like you can with a barbell. if you rest your leg on something else, or touch a wall for balance, you are hindering the progression as well, as it can easily mislead how much weight you are actually moving.



no it's not. going from 185->225 is way easier than going from 225->265. that part should also be obvious.

to answer your persistent questions, i don't train anyone. i work out with other people, some of whom are college athletes, some are high school, some are women, some are novices, and some are elite. some are powerlifters and some are athletes. i think personal trainers are a shady bunch, but then again i read and trust a lot of the works by respected personal trainers. so whatever. there are smarter people out there than me, and i never want to work in the industry. everything i do and learn is to train myself, not anyone else.
From the article:

Quote:
Reduction Strategy 3 -- Strength Development

Strength is development is the second big key. In ACL prevention the strength program must be geared toward a functional single leg approach.

Keys
- Handle Bodyweight- single leg progressions
- Develop Functional Strength- no machines
- Develop Single Leg Strength- difference in hip mechanics

- Perform both knee dominant and hip dominant single leg exercise


Ideally all athletes should progress to a true single leg squat and a loaded one leg straight leg deadlift.
Did you miss that part? Seriously. When the author meant strength training, he meant a focus on single leg movements. THE STRENGTH PROGRAM MIKE BOYLE USES WITH EVERYONE is not a 5x3 Squat program. In fact, it is based largely (too much in my opinion, but he is much more knowledgeable then you me or anyone on this forum) single leg movements. His body by Boyle coaching - for everyone - relies on the FMS screen and functional (single leg) movements. I never called my strength program an ACL prevention - I just said single leg movements are necessary in training for ACL prevention. Something the article speaks too. His basic strength program is single-leg.

What about the quote from the same author in the previous post? The one where he talks about the musculature of a single leg movements. You asked for proof of concept for single leg movements. Here it is from a world renowned athletic coach who worked with Boston College's Hockey Program before moving on to head up the S&C of the Boston Red Sox. Who was the last athletic team Rippetoe worked with? This is "The Rink" I assume most people would want to improve their performance / prevent injury while playing hockey. Single leg movements are a key to this. You said they weren't, but have not provided any evidence from a reputable source to discredit this statement. I provided multiple articles, plus my own experiences.

I never said I put the guy on 5/3/1, I said he was a novice lifter and that SS would have been detrimental to his athletic ability. He did single leg movements and other stuff until his FMS scores increased. Addressing movement issues It isn't as simple as lacrosse ball rolling and the bottom squat drill. It is about relearning how to activate the core to maintain lumbar position, among other things. However, the limited volume of 5/3/1 or the versatility of Westside provide opportunities where SS is rigid.
By being able to change a movement (Westside) or incorporate targeted accessory work (5/3/1) the programs are more versatile and, thus, better suited to athletic training. Squatting 3x a week leaves little energy in the CNS for accessory work.

Notice how my program addresses the lack of progressive loading of functional movements (my issue with single leg stuff) by incorporating a basic 5/3/1. Ding Ding Ding. Linear progression that does not limit progress in anyway? Check. Extra work to ensure movement patterns are being learned (5by5 at reduced weight) and non-dominant muscles are being trained? Check. Accessory work that strengthens overlooked/injury prone areas? Check?

Provide some source of evidence outside of work by Rippetoe. When you criticize me for including power-cleans and deadlifts on the same day, quote someone of value. When you balk at two squat variations a day, again, post some evidence - OUTSIDE OF THE SINGLE SOURCE OF STARTING STRENGTH/PRACTICAL PROGRAMMING.

Here is why Oly Lifts before deads from Wendler's ebook:

Quote:
Question: Can I use power cleans (or something similar) in this program? If so, where would you put them?

Answer: Yes, this is a great idea. Id recommend doing power cleans, hang cleans, power snatches or hang snatches if want to choose an Olympic movement. If you want to do these along with the regular training, Id recommend doing them before you perform your squat or deadlift workout.
I don't have an e-book, but here is 2004 olympic coach Gayle Hatch's Squat program a second time. Notice the twice a week double squatting? I actually really like this program, and wouldn't hesitate to build something around it (see programming Jan - march on that site.) However, I have found that people like the visible progress of linear progression. It is a good mental reward. So I normally include some form of it.

Finally, training yourself is different than training someone else whose goals may differ from yours. I can't stress this enough. It is a skill to be learnt.

Provide some actual evidence to support your claims instead of misunderstand my own links and critizing me for my inability to "distill [my] understanding of what [I] read." I read an article that says a strength program based on functions movements is one of many tools needed to prevent ACL injury. And that program can be used with everyone (read: novice). And the author is one of the leading proponents of strength programs based on functional single leg movements. I'm not sure what you read? Just the first paragraph?

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04-17-2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mug25 View Post
great article! I get a lot of people looking at me like im crazy in the gym while I do several one-legged movements.
I hated learning them. I was so bad at them in comparison to bilateral movements. Luckily, I have a gym in my garage or I would have been pretty embarrassed!

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04-17-2012, 05:48 PM
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Jarick
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So you're saying Starting Strength would be a poor platform for sports athletes, right? I'd agree. It's pretty much just a platform for adding a lot of mass, whether that's a good or bad thing.

I would add it's a great companion guide for lift technique, especially the 3rd edition.

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04-17-2012, 06:00 PM
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BaconStrips
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
So you're saying Starting Strength would be a poor platform for sports athletes, right? I'd agree. It's pretty much just a platform for adding a lot of mass, whether that's a good or bad thing.

I would add it's a great companion guide for lift technique, especially the 3rd edition.
Exactly. And the lift breakdowns is why it is still on my shelf, and why I replaced the second edition with the third edition. It is also a great program for someone working out on their own. Especially for the weaker individual who may not be into sports (read: internet dweller.) Like I said earlier, it is the perfect program for the 85-pound weakling (/redditer) tired of getting sand kicked in his/her face IRL. However, it isn't the only option and it may not be the best option long term for someone looking to supplement athletics with strength.

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