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Old
04-13-2012, 10:13 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
It's not worth going that far down the ladder. The ECHL first has to prove that they can produce the talent before it's worth the NHL doing a baseball model. Aside from fighters, we might get one real actual hockey player per year who made it to the NHL after cutting their teeth in the ECHL.
Chad LaRose. It does happen occasionally.

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04-13-2012, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cptjeff View Post
Chad LaRose. It does happen occasionally.
Yes it does.... the "Global Moderator" IMHO is too quick to dismiss the ECHL. Not a shabby brand of hockey, some serious Diamonds in the Rough playing in that league.

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04-13-2012, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cptjeff View Post
Chad LaRose. It does happen occasionally.
As it did with Alex Burrows and Jonathan Quick. Like I said, we might get one per year, possibly a second. I said 'maybe once per year,' that's pretty much occasionally. LaRose wasn't even a full season.

I'm not taking shots at the ECHL, and my moderator status doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that the ECHL produces very little long-term NHL caliber talent, not even close to a baseball model. Most of the guys are undrafted, so it has nothing to do with the draft.


The people comparing the ECHL to the CFL are exactly right. The CFL might produce a handful of guys who stick on an NFL roster, despite some people saying that the talent is so underrated.

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04-14-2012, 01:47 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I'm not taking shots at the ECHL, and my moderator status doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that the ECHL produces very little long-term NHL caliber talent...
You told me that I was going to deep GKJ... Beg to differ. Some guys are late bloomers. If we take this thread to the "nth" degree and challenge players in the lower leagues to play above themselves then who are you, me, or anyone else to say they cant play beyond their potentialities?. I seem to remember, not 32 years ago, Herb Brooks taking a bunch of un-drafted, under-aged & un-proven NCAA players from places like Erie PA, playing as a "team" & beating the mighty Red Machine. Hockey and its players are like that. You have no idea what your dealing with until push truly comes to shove.

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04-14-2012, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post
Actually, they do. It's called the CFL. That dawned on me many years ago. As a kid, I was a CFL fan. For a while, it seemed that almost every Grey Cup game was "Peter Liske's last CFL game before going to the NFL", "Warren Moon's last CFL game before going to the NFL", etc, etc, etc. Complete with tearful farewells. Maybe one reason the NFL is so ultra profitable is because they let taxpayers in another country pay for their minor league.
Yeah...no.

The amount of CFL players to make a NFL roster for the first time can be counted on a couple fingers across the league each year. A couple QBs made their name there when size was still a huge thing a couple decades ago...but...yeah...Moon and Flutie aren't exactly contemporary names and who the **** is Peter Liske? If I'm making an argument in favor of something I'm probably not going to involve a guy with a NFL career completion percentage of 50.5% and a 21:33 TD:INT ratio. Liske may have been great in Canada, but those are horrible numbers for the NFL, even for the late 60s/early 70s.


The only CFL alumni that's made the Steelers that I can remember in my two decades watching them has been Stefan Logan...a one-dimensional kick returner with a bad case of fumblitis who was cut after one year. Hell, at least Germany gave us James Harrison

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04-14-2012, 09:01 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
You told me that I was going to deep GKJ... Beg to differ. Some guys are late bloomers. If we take this thread to the "nth" degree and challenge players in the lower leagues to play above themselves then who are you, me, or anyone else to say they cant play beyond their potentialities?. I seem to remember, not 32 years ago, Herb Brooks taking a bunch of un-drafted, under-aged & un-proven NCAA players from places like Erie PA, playing as a "team" & beating the mighty Red Machine. Hockey and its players are like that. You have no idea what your dealing with until push truly comes to shove.

I don't really know what else you're rambling on about with Herb Brooks, a handful of games in the Olympics didn't prove much about the long-term viability of a lot of the players on that team. A lot made the NHL, a few hung around for a while, but that wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the best players in college hockey. You're comparing a team that was put together for a few months, remembered for what they did basically over 2 weeks, and saying that it's the same as a minor league that's been around for 23 years. Just like people didn't flock to sign undrafted college players in the Swedish Second league when the Flyers pulled out Dave Poulin.

I would say to provide a list of players in the 23 years (now) that the ECHL has existed, but for you to prove your point as correct, the list would have to be so long that it wouldn't be worth a list. People would have already accepted that it's a viable feeder league to the NHL. It's not. Not even in the same universe as Double A in baseball.

I said we might get one or two who make it and stay in the NHL after playing in the ECHL for a full season. You disagree with this. You're being given the stage to provide some evidence that ECHL making (and sticking) in the NHL is a regular occurrence. Without rambling on about coaching or the Herb Brooks or the Soviets, or me bashing the ECHL, or whatever irrelevant non-sequitur you're using. I'll wait.

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04-14-2012, 11:48 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I would say to provide a list of players in the 23 years (now) that the ECHL has existed, but for you to prove your point as correct, the list would have to be so long that it wouldn't be worth a list. People would have already accepted that it's a viable feeder league to the NHL. It's not. Not even in the same universe as Double A in baseball.

I said we might get one or two who make it and stay in the NHL after playing in the ECHL for a full season. You disagree with this. You're being given the stage to provide some evidence that ECHL making (and sticking) in the NHL is a regular occurrence. Without rambling on about coaching or the Herb Brooks or the Soviets, or me bashing the ECHL, or whatever irrelevant non-sequitur you're using. I'll wait.
The Leafs have been using the ECHL in the past couple years to help develop goaltenders. One management official (can't remember who, could have been Dudley or Poulin, wasn't Burke though) said in an interview that they like the league because the high shot totals allow goalies to get lots of action.

James Reimer, Ben Scrivens, and Jussi Rynnas have all seen time in the ECHL in the past 3-4 years. All 3 played for the Leafs this season. Prospect Mark Owuya also spent time down in Reading this past season.

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04-14-2012, 01:18 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I'm waiting...
Sorry to keep you waiting..... First off, I wasnt accusing you of "bashing" the ECHL, you simply presented the facts, a counter-argument to including that particular league in a hypothetical system of Relegation enjoining the NHL, AHL & ECHL all under one umbrella.

As I initially stated in my earlier post, the first thing we'd have to do in this new mythical world would be to completely clean the slate, wiping every single team off the map, starting from scratch. Player contracts ripped up. Franchises' 4Sale. Obviously, a great many number of existing NHL/AHL franchises would be applying, far fewer from the depths of the ECHL whose markets simply couldnt sustain nor compete with the minimum requirements of say a 15,500 seat building (amongst other criteria's of course). Once established, you'd clearly still have lower leagues popping up (some that exist today sticking around) in smaller markets.

Now, I did not suggest, imply, infer nor intimate that the ECHL was supplying the NHL with a steady diet of talent, nor am I suggesting that these hypothetical "minor leagues" who couldnt or didnt enjoin with a sprawling system of Relegation in a Mega League be doing so either. As htpwn notes above, goaltenders, and the odd late blooming sniper, often on the smallish size & thus possibly undrafted, those with attitudinal problems or whatever who wind up in the 'E' but do in fact posses the natural talents to play in the AHL or rarer still the NHL, might, and Id underscore "might" find their careers turned around if given the opportunity to play "up" through the system of Relegation as opposed to the existing system of Demotion.

As for your challenges pursuant to my referencing Team USA 1980, I did so to simply illustrate the fundamental truism of hockey itself. That it is absolutely a "team" sport, and its not unusual to have a squad of un-tested rookies, undrafted or over-looked outliers, players who were demoted for various reasons, vets playing out a contract or whatever beating teams from higher leagues stacked with superior individual talents when their well Coached, playing cohesively as a "team". Often, as was the case with Brooks' squad, once the team was dismantled & the players moved on, only a handful made it to the "Bigs" and of that lot, fewer still sticking around for any length of time. Imagine though had the entire team been "absorbed" into the NHL at that time, maybe as a new franchise in Cleveland or wherever, stuck together. I think the story wouldve been far different than the busts like Jim Craig etc.


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04-14-2012, 01:53 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
The Leafs have been using the ECHL in the past couple years to help develop goaltenders. One management official (can't remember who, could have been Dudley or Poulin, wasn't Burke though) said in an interview that they like the league because the high shot totals allow goalies to get lots of action.

James Reimer, Ben Scrivens, and Jussi Rynnas have all seen time in the ECHL in the past 3-4 years. All 3 played for the Leafs this season. Prospect Mark Owuya also spent time down in Reading this past season.
There are others as well. I'd say it works because there are only so many goaltenders you can have around.

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Sorry to keep you waiting..... First off, I wasnt accusing you of "bashing" the ECHL, you simply presented the facts, a counter-argument to including that particular league in a hypothetical system of Relegation enjoining the NHL, AHL & ECHL all under one umbrella.

As I initially stated in my earlier post, the first thing we'd have to do in this new mythical world would be to completely clean the slate, wiping every single team off the map, starting from scratch. Player contracts ripped up. Franchises' 4Sale. Obviously, a great many number of existing NHL/AHL franchises would be applying, far fewer from the depths of the ECHL whose markets simply couldnt sustain nor compete with the minimum requirements of say a 15,500 seat building (amongst other criteria's of course). Once established, you'd clearly still have lower leagues popping up (some that exist today sticking around) in smaller markets.

Now, I did not suggest, imply, infer nor intimate that the ECHL was supplying the NHL with a steady diet of talent, nor am I suggesting that these hypothetical "minor leagues" who couldnt or didnt enjoin with a sprawling system of Relegation in a Mega League be doing so either. As htpwn notes above, goaltenders, and the odd late blooming sniper, often on the smallish size & thus possibly undrafted, those with attitudinal problems or whatever who wind up in the 'E' but do in fact posses the natural talents to play in the AHL or rarer still the NHL, might, and Id underscore "might" find their careers turned around if given the opportunity to play "up" through the system of Relegation as opposed to the existing system of Demotion.

As for your challenges pursuant to my referencing Team USA 1980, I did so to simply illustrate the fundamental truism of hockey itself. That it is absolutely a "team" sport, and its not unusual to have a squad of un-tested rookies, undrafted or over-looked outliers, players who were demoted for various reasons, vets playing out a contract or whatever beating teams from higher leagues stacked with superior individual talents when their well Coached, playing cohesively as a "team". Often, as was the case with Brooks' squad, once the team was dismantled & the players moved on, only a handful made it to the "Bigs" and of that lot, fewer still sticking around for any length of time. Imagine though had the entire team been "absorbed" into the NHL at that time, maybe as a new franchise in Cleveland or wherever, stuck together. I think the story wouldve been far different than the busts like Jim Craig etc.
You're pointing out a team sport in the Olympics, but minor leagues above all else are about developing individuals. In order to set up a baseball-like system, there first need to be the talent at the lower levels. And there isn't. There's too many other options that pay better.

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04-14-2012, 05:35 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
You're pointing out a team sport in the Olympics, but minor leagues above all else are about developing individuals.
Where did you get that notion from?. The minute you hit AAA, Major Junior, its all about winning, and right now. By the time your Drafted or signed as a walk-on be it the ECHL or any other fully professional league, again, its all about winning. Only the NCAA blends extensive training & practice sessions with fewer games, concentrating on scholastics, character building, the individuals growth as a human being, competitor. Major Junior & minor pro hockey circuits are not training grounds. Your only as good as your next shift, your next save. Your their to win, sell tickets, fill the rink.

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04-14-2012, 11:13 PM
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In order to set up a baseball-like system, there first need to be the talent at the lower levels. And there isn't. There's too many other options that pay better.
But wouldn't you be able to pay better, with more direct involvement from the major league clubs?

Again I think we're arguing chicken/egg.

Or if we want to stick with baseball... a "Field of Dreams"

If we build it, they will come!

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04-15-2012, 04:44 AM
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I don't care what you build, if I'm getting an offer to get $85,000 a year to play in Switzerland I'm going to take that over $30,000 in ****ing Erie.

Baseball's minor league system works because it's all there is. If you're not good enough to play in Major League Baseball then...well...****...you can either go to Japan or continue to play the AAA circuit and hope someone ahead of you on the depth chart get hurt. There are independent leagues...but the players there are players either a.) complete non-prospects who are playing solely out of love of the game, b.) prospects playing briefly there to take advantage of a draft loophole, or c.) troubled veterans trying to recreate a name for themselves. You're not making a living wage playing for those teams. In hockey if you're decently talented and devoted enough you can find a place to play that isn't Japan quite easily.


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04-15-2012, 11:02 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
I don't care what you build, if I'm getting an offer to get $85,000 a year to play in Switzerland I'm going to take that over $30,000 in ****ing Erie.

Baseball's minor league system works because it's all there is. If you're not good enough to play in Major League Baseball then...well...****...you can either go to Japan or continue to play the AAA circuit and hope someone ahead of you on the depth chart get hurt. There are independent leagues...but the players there are players either a.) complete non-prospects who are playing solely out of love of the game, b.) prospects playing briefly there to take advantage of a draft loophole, or c.) troubled veterans trying to recreate a name for themselves. You're not making a living wage playing for those teams. In hockey if you're decently talented and devoted enough you can find a place to play that isn't Japan quite easily.
My argument is that the reason you're only offering 30000 to play hockey is because there's no involvement from the major leagues.

If the option was to be in a known development system to make your way up to the NHL and take 45000, or 85000 in Switzerland but completely disappear off the radar... It'd be a tougher choice and depend if you're playing for a bit more money or if you're still playing for a dream.

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04-15-2012, 11:55 AM
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...if I'm getting an offer to get $85,000 a year to play in Switzerland I'm going to take that over $30,000 in ****ing Erie.
Good point. And of course there are lifestyle benefits to playing in Europe. A shorter season. Tax advantages. If your a half decent AHL or even ECHL caliber player with a distaste for the win at all costs & do it now mentality or your just not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel in making it to the NHL...

the interminable bus travel & schedules, lousy hotel rooms etc, looking at a maybe 4-6-10yr career in totality if your lucky, where would you rather play while likely earning easily just as much as if not double what your staring at in North America and actually keeping most of your coin; Gwinnet or Geneva, Hamilton or Helsinki?.

Those BigMcLargehugeDreams of making it to "the show" die hard for the vast majority of players in the minors on this side of the pond, the Managers & Coaches at the minor league levels using those dreams on the players like a weapon in more cases than not, from initial signings through practices, in the dressing room, behind the bench. Nothing whatsoever to do with a "training ground", everything to do with "winning & do it right now".

Honestly, for anyone to suggest that players from Major Junior ranks and on up through the minors are the recipients of serious developmental systems, intensive basic skill & educative programming is talking through their hat. These franchises are all based on mini-NHL models, its all about "the business", winning, putting butts in the seats, nothing altruistic, munificent, benevolent about it whatsoever. Tune in to any regular season NHL game and just watch how many players out there are completely lacking in the most rudimentary of hockey skills let alone smarts. Unfinished, still "works in progress" because why? They never received the kind of training & coaching many seem to think they did receive in Junior, the minors...

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04-15-2012, 12:41 PM
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Where did you get that notion from?. The minute you hit AAA, Major Junior, its all about winning, and right now. By the time your Drafted or signed as a walk-on be it the ECHL or any other fully professional league, again, its all about winning. Only the NCAA blends extensive training & practice sessions with fewer games, concentrating on scholastics, character building, the individuals growth as a human being, competitor. Major Junior & minor pro hockey circuits are not training grounds. Your only as good as your next shift, your next save. Your their to win, sell tickets, fill the rink.
Some teams may emphasize winning on their farm team, but it's always about the individual player being developed. Always. The Devils fielded complete crap for an AHL team for years, yet they're consistently in the playoffs. The Flyers haven't had a good AHL team in a while. Meanwhile, the Kings constantly have very good farm teams and have to scratch and claw to make the playoffs, and were terrible before that. Affiliate success is gravy in the big picture. This whole "team concept" and everyone gets a star is for pee wees. AHL teams who are trying to win generally have more players who know they're in the AHL for the long haul.

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But wouldn't you be able to pay better, with more direct involvement from the major league clubs?

Again I think we're arguing chicken/egg.

Or if we want to stick with baseball... a "Field of Dreams"

If we build it, they will come!
Some guys know they're not NHL players. That's why they're content going elsewhere and probably get paid better.

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04-15-2012, 12:51 PM
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Several better minor leagues would secure the players from smaller countries like europe. Kopitar, some Norwegians and danes. Would be clever. It would not be easier to have the near-NHL level players from bigger countries around unless the pay was as good as the european leagues though. So it would not fix the problem AHL has with european talent.

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04-15-2012, 01:22 PM
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Some teams may emphasize winning on their farm team, but it's always about the individual player being developed. Always.
Well, Im sorry GKJ, were just going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one. I really wish I could agree with your opinion on the matter, what a wonderful world it would be, and how much better the game. But Im afraid not. Just not the case. Yes, you get the odd AHL or ECHL franchise who under astute management & coaching do indeed take their responsibilities seriously in "developing" players but tell ya what, few & far between. It takes a special kind of love for the game and benevolent nature combined with experience & knowledge, success, to push aside profit for altruistic ideals, taking the term "farm" seriously for most. Your paying customer wants it all and they want it now.

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04-15-2012, 01:59 PM
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Some teams may emphasize winning on their farm team, but it's always about the individual player being developed. Always.
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Well, Im sorry GKJ, were just going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one. I really wish I could agree with your opinion on the matter, what a wonderful world it would be, and how much better the game. But Im afraid not. Just not the case. Yes, you get the odd AHL or ECHL franchise who under astute management & coaching do indeed take their responsibilities seriously in "developing" players but tell ya what, few & far between. It takes a special kind of love for the game and benevolent nature combined with experience & knowledge, success, to push aside profit for altruistic ideals, taking the term "farm" seriously for most. Your paying customer wants it all and they want it now.
When the NHL affiliate hires AHL coaches, dictates playing times, and signs/assigns/recalls players at will, it is all about player development and the NHL team's needs - not winning the Calder Cup.

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04-15-2012, 02:05 PM
  #44
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When the NHL affiliate hires AHL coaches, dictates playing times, and signs/assigns/recalls players at will, it is all about player development and the NHL team's needs - not winning the Calder Cup.
You too huh?. "Once a Duck, Always a Duck"...

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