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Old
04-15-2012, 05:15 PM
  #26
vorky
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J17 Vs Proclamation
NHL (NA hockey in general) has lured europeans for decades and has not payed appropriate money for them. European domestic leagues dont have great players to create great league and make money. And these leagues dont have money for developing youth from NHL clubs. Does not NHL ruin european development programmes? I think it does. Yes, it is not only NHL as a factor, but NHL does not help Europe to improve domestic leagues(programmes).
You blame KHL for ruining domestic leagues? We will see what happens to slovak league if Slovan joins KHL. I dont think it will have negative influence. Kids, juniors will have motivation to make Slovanīs roster.
MHL, created by KHL and FHR, will consist of czech club from Karlovy Vary. Do you know a reason? Club wants to give its youth a chance to play better league at home instead of leaving country. We all know how many players failed in CHL if they left too young. Is it bad to have czech MHL team for czech development system? If it is not, kids will leave for CHL, Sweden. If it is, kids will play for Energie and be at home (it is great for their mental development). There is no a risk of failing due to social, psychological etc adaptation to new culture.
MHL has an idea of Junior Club World Cup. It is a great challenge for slovak, czech jr champion. MHL wants to improve europeans jr leagues by cooperation, by playing international games among clubs. Is it bad for Europe?
You know, Europe has many domestic leagues, every country has own vision of development and policy to NA. Adventage of NHL, CHL is that it can lure players, it is easy to get them. Why? Because Europe is not united, strong enough. KHL wants to unite Europe, we need it.

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04-15-2012, 05:26 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
Barys Astana ruined Kazakhstani hockey development.
There was nothing to ruin in first place. Slovakia/Czech Republic still has something going in their respective championships.

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04-15-2012, 05:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
Barys Astana ruined Kazakhstani hockey development.
Funny you should say so while this year you have the best Kazakh U18 NT in the past few years and your own domestic league now is a legitimate competition and is getting stronger and stronger every year.

The only country that could claim that it's hockey development was somehow ''destroyed'' could be Latvia as before Dinamo Riga we had 4 professional teams in our own local league, Riga 2000, Liepajas Metalurgs, Ogre ASK and DHK Latgale... and even in this case the collapse of the domestic league while partially initiated by Dinamo Riga who at that time wanted it's farm club (at that time) Riga 2000 play in Belarus league so other clubs also went to Belarus, wasn't caused by Dinamo but mainly cause of recession. Metalurgs is still there, Ogre lost money because the Ministry of Defense had to cut spending for sports and didn't give anything more to Ogre, Latgale is still there, though playing low level hockey and Riga 2000 successor is HK Riga in MHL.

And really the development wasn't destroyed, only 3 professional clubs. The hockey schools at these towns are still producing players, even better players than before. I'd say we'd need at least another 1 or 2 professional clubs in Latvia for all our talents to be able to develop at home after the age of 21-22 and this should be solved but other than that I don't see that the system as such was destroyed.

I don't see how 1 or 2 KHL clubs in Czech Republic can destroy a whole league. It's not the case as with Latvia where we only had 4 professional teams, in those countries there's a number of clubs and number of hockey schools. I don't see why Czech league or German DEL or whatever cannot serve as a sort of AHL of KHL, developing players. In fact, they're already doing it- even Elitserien, they're developing players for NHL and now also for KHL, every year many Swedes and Czechs try their luck at KHL.


So..... where's the problem. If you have a 17 year old prospect in Karlovi Vari, you rather want to see him go and play in CHL or stay at home and mature in similar level of competition? If you have a 23 year old top producer in Slavia would you rather see him going to play for Spartak Moscow or moving just a few blocks away to play for LEV in the same competion???


Barys in Kazakhstan in now way influenced badly the Kazakh league or other teams like Kazzinc in VHL. Dinamo Minsk in Belarus in no way influenced Belarus league, though the economic problems of today left some mark. But not Dinamo. Shouldn't forget that KHL was created in difficult times, when the recession just started and for a lot of problems a scapegoat for these money problems was found in KHL...

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Old
04-15-2012, 06:18 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
I don't see how 1 or 2 KHL clubs in Czech Republic can destroy a whole league. It's not the case as with Latvia where we only had 4 professional teams, in those countries there's a number of clubs and number of hockey schools. I don't see why Czech league or German DEL or whatever cannot serve as a sort of AHL of KHL, developing players. In fact, they're already doing it- even Elitserien, they're developing players for NHL and now also for KHL, every year many Swedes and Czechs try their luck at KHL.


So..... where's the problem. If you have a 17 year old prospect in Karlovi Vari, you rather want to see him go and play in CHL or stay at home and mature in similar level of competition? If you have a 23 year old top producer in Slavia would you rather see him going to play for Spartak Moscow or moving just a few blocks away to play for LEV in the same competion???
I agree with this, absolutelly.

Critics of KHL expansion to Slovakia and Czech rep say that sponsors of domestic leagues/clubs will not be interesting in spending money into league or will become LEVīs, Slovan sponsors. So less money for slovak, czech clubs. Really? HC LEVīs owner is CKD Group, a company which was not involved in czech hockey in past. Now, CKD gives some money to czech hockey federation. So, more money in czech hockey!!! Plus sponsors of czech league/clubs are not so wealthy to sponsor KHL club or are not interesting in expansion to russian market. Maybe there are another companies which will support HC LEV but are not involved in hockey sponsorship now. Energie K.Vary lured new companies to sponsor its MHL team.

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04-15-2012, 06:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
what teams should join VHL? Krylya Sovetov comeback?
Voronezh, Tver and Krasnodar have applied for vhl.

Here is an old link, vhl inspection have already inspected some of the cities.
http://news.sportbox.ru/Vidy_sporta/...emyatsya-v-VHL

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04-15-2012, 06:40 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
Funny you should say so while this year you have the best Kazakh U18 NT in the past few years and your own domestic league now is a legitimate competition and is getting stronger and stronger every year.
I generally agree with everything you wrote.

Offtopic: KHL has as little impact on Kazakh U18 team as it is on Latvian. And the competition might be severely hurt by Karaganda's supposed joining of VHL, it might lead to a massive drop of interest in local league. But nothing I wrote, has anything to do with this topic.

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04-15-2012, 06:53 PM
  #32
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As far as I know Slovan's fans are crazy about their team. And they have a good stadium. Hope there will be a lot of them on KHL games.

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Old
04-16-2012, 04:14 AM
  #33
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IMO attendance in Prague will be ok. Let's be reality, many people over here want to see Russian ***** kicked in hockey, so they will come to see it.

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04-16-2012, 04:25 AM
  #34
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I am looking forwant to seeing czech-slovak derby matches. Of course, it is not traditional one, but still..

btw KHL vicepresident said that HK Poprad does not have money. I am not suprised.

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04-16-2012, 04:29 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I am looking forwant to seeing czech-slovak derby matches. Of course, it is not traditional one, but still..

btw KHL vicepresident said that HK Poprad does not have money. I am not suprised.
any idea how that division is gonna look like?

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Old
04-16-2012, 04:42 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
any idea how that division is gonna look like?
Prague, Bratislava, Riga (100% they will be in the same division)
+ SKA and Minsk is my guess

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Old
04-16-2012, 04:46 AM
  #37
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I have no idea, I think that HC LEV Prague and Slovan Bratislava should be at the same division.

My scenario if Vityaz and Avto stay and Slovan, Donbass join. I dont count HC LEV as newcomer. Slovan will be add to Bobrovīs division to HC LEV (7 clubs). Donbass to Tarasovīs and one of its club will be send to east. So we have 13 clubs in west and east as well.

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Old
04-16-2012, 07:50 AM
  #38
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Why I weigh in on this subject........I dunno as I know nothing really.
But the KHL has to start picking off the Bern's, Berlin's, Helsinki's, Stockholm's, maybe Belfast, Rouen.......Bolzano
So far just the old Eastern Bloc nations,
Have to show the top teams the $ advantage of leaving domestic leagues for the higher costs of joining KHL.
Gotta make in roads into Western Europe. Picking off 2nd tier clubs in Switzerland maybe?
To those defending Slovak and Czech teams. There's obviously a structural problem as teams are leaving for the EBEL as well.

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04-16-2012, 08:07 AM
  #39
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But the KHL has to start picking off the Bern's, Berlin's, Helsinki's, Stockholm's, maybe Belfast, Rouen.......Bolzano
So far just the old Eastern Bloc nations,
and you answered to yourself here..

Quote:
To those defending Slovak and Czech teams. There's obviously a structural problem as teams are leaving for the EBEL as well.
KHL wanted to expand to Sweden, AIK case, but it did not work because domestic league/federation was strong enough to protect its interests. It is easier for KHL to expand into Central Europe. Slovakia and Czech rep have trouble with domestic leagues. Czech clubs. If KHL have slovak, czech clubs it will make pressure for geman clubs. Then german KHL club wil make pressure for suiss and swedes/finns clubs. At least I see this scenario

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04-16-2012, 08:23 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
and you answered to yourself here..



KHL wanted to expand to Sweden, AIK case, but it did not work because domestic league/federation was strong enough to protect its interests. It is easier for KHL to expand into Central Europe. Slovakia and Czech rep have trouble with domestic leagues. Czech clubs. If KHL have slovak, czech clubs it will make pressure for geman clubs. Then german KHL club wil make pressure for suiss and swedes/finns clubs. At least I see this scenario
What trouble does CZE have with domestic league? I haven't noticed anything

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04-16-2012, 08:36 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
What trouble does CZE have with domestic league? I haven't noticed anything
Then why are they bleeding teams to KHL and EBEL?

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04-16-2012, 08:43 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
What trouble does CZE have with domestic league? I haven't noticed anything
I mean two groups of clubs - one group wants to create closed league like NHL, KHL, another wants to have relegation round like Sweden. Then you have Usti and Chomutov which wants to promote. No agreement CSLH - APK. So, czech hockey community is not united as sweden. So KHL has easier route to expand here.
Slovan wanted to join czech league to sold out arena regularly and play better league. Czech clubs refused it, so KHL was chosen as future plan. The same story, slovak hockey community is not united. Košice, Slovan maybe others wanted to join czech league, others can not efford it.

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04-16-2012, 08:43 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
Then why are they bleeding teams to KHL and EBEL?
I don't know, that's why I asked. You tell me if you know that

vorky: ok, that's somehow valid argument. Even though I wouldn't call it "trouble"

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04-16-2012, 08:50 AM
  #44
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ok, maybe not trouble but you know I mean. Hockey community is not united, so it is easier to expand, bribe someone. Ok, bribing is also about culture in central europe.

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04-16-2012, 08:53 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
I don't know, that's why I asked. You tell me if you know that

vorky: ok, that's somehow valid argument. Even though I wouldn't call it "trouble"
I dunno you're there and I'm not.
Why did Oriil Znomjmo join EBEL and why are SHK 37 planning to?
EBEL may have plans and ambitions but it's not a Premier Leagus yet.

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Old
04-16-2012, 09:02 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
Why are you assuming that the lower teams would disappear if the top 1-2 teams left? I don't see the connection.

If anything, rather than wanting to leave to the NHL, local development will grow with players wanting to represent their nation's KHL team rather than move to North America to play in the AHL or NHL there. Having a viable alternative tot he NHL within Europe, IMO, is a great thing.
Their nations KHL team? What a ridiculous idea. Do people in Russia actually believe such nonsense?

Players from Sweden or Finland don't grow up wanting to play in the KHL.

Anyway, if you remove 2/3 big markets from individual nations and put them in the KHL, what becomes of the domestic leagues left behind? Gone are their big franchises, TV contract and money goes down the hole, incentive to develop players goes, prestige of winning national league decreases. It will not help domestic hockey in many nations.

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04-16-2012, 09:11 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
J17 Vs Proclamation
NHL (NA hockey in general) has lured europeans for decades and has not payed appropriate money for them. European domestic leagues dont have great players to create great league and make money. And these leagues dont have money for developing youth from NHL clubs. Does not NHL ruin european development programmes? I think it does. Yes, it is not only NHL as a factor, but NHL does not help Europe to improve domestic leagues(programmes).
Obviously the NHL hasn't paid what i think it should have.

The NHL can hinder youth development in Europe, but you think creating a 2nd "Global league", thus destroying domestic competition even more, helps domestic development anymore than the NHL does? I find that hard to believe.


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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
You blame KHL for ruining domestic leagues? We will see what happens to slovak league if Slovan joins KHL. I dont think it will have negative influence. Kids, juniors will have motivation to make Slovanīs roster.
When have i ever blamed the KHL for ruining domestic leagues. I said such an idea that is being proposed could damage domestic development long-term.

What happens for the Juniors not involved with Slovan? As usual, all you look at is the benefit to one (the one involved with Russian hockey), the others don't get the benefit of being in the KHL. Where is the benefit for the rest? There is no benefit for the teams that don't make this "elite".

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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
YMHL, created by KHL and FHR, will consist of czech club from Karlovy Vary. Do you know a reason? Club wants to give its youth a chance to play better league at home instead of leaving country. We all know how many players failed in CHL if they left too young. Is it bad to have czech MHL team for czech development system? If it is not, kids will leave for CHL, Sweden. If it is, kids will play for Energie and be at home (it is great for their mental development). There is no a risk of failing due to social, psychological etc adaptation to new culture.
It's indictative of the sham that Czech hockey is currently in that they intend on having teams in a newly formed Russian Junior system, instead of being able to rely on their own Junior system.

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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
MHL has an idea of Junior Club World Cup. It is a great challenge for slovak, czech jr champion. MHL wants to improve europeans jr leagues by cooperation, by playing international games among clubs. Is it bad for Europe?
You know, Europe has many domestic leagues, every country has own vision of development and policy to NA. Adventage of NHL, CHL is that it can lure players, it is easy to get them. Why? Because Europe is not united, strong enough. KHL wants to unite Europe, we need it.
This doesn't have any relevance to the original concept ; An elite Pan-European league, which has a select few teams from each nation. At no point have you actually responded the my actual points (as ususal) ; what happens to those left behind? It's like your some propaganda artist Vorky. Never quite answer/reply to the actual question.

A Junior world Cups is a fine idea, but it isn't splitting up and ruining domestic leagues is it?

KHL doesn't want to unite Europe. The KHL doesn't really care how development goes in many European nations. It cares about having a strong domestic league and about rivalling the NHL. You think the KHL really gives a damn about how youth hockey progresses in western European countries? If so, you must be incredibly naive.

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04-16-2012, 09:14 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by ult View Post
lol, what? With KHL everything is like, 10 times better than it was before. I mean everything. What better can they do for Russian hockey other than trying to make it number 1 sport in country, which it never was. No help in improving the Russian development system? Are you out of your mind? There are 20 teams in KHL, next season there will be about 25 russian teams in VHL, and about 50 in MHL. Then you have KHL TV with about 10 million subscribers and unprecedented rise of popularity of hockey in media.

You better stick to what you know best, english hockey, or whatever.

This post reminded me how much I hate nhl... Like, boo, what are you doing, making your own strong league, stop it now!
Did you even bother to read what i posted?

The KHL great and the MHL is great. Russian hockey seems to be going in a positive direction, which is great.

Why the hell does Russian hockey need to over-run the rest of Europe and make its own version of an NHL? How is this helpful to the rest of Europe outside of those nations that are too small to have strong leagues or are in ruin anyway and so have no other option but to rely upon KHL help?

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04-16-2012, 10:43 AM
  #49
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It is difficult to discuss with you because you dont have basic knowledge of KHL and MHL plans. You dont know how KHL, MHL see european hockey development and future.

Quote:
The NHL can hinder youth development in Europe, but you think creating a 2nd "Global league", thus destroying domestic competition even more, helps domestic development anymore than the NHL does? I find that hard to believe.
Quote:
An elite Pan-European league, which has a select few teams from each nation. At no point have you actually responded the my actual points (as ususal) ; what happens to those left behind?
nothing. Club not involved in KHL would play domestic league as before. Look at Slovan case. Club will join KHL and rest teams of slovak league will play extraliga like they do know. Maybe one newcomer. Level of play will be the same. Slovan will not change its developming system - kids, youth, juniors will play slovak leagues of appropriate age category. Best juniors can make Slovanīs roster to play better league. Is it bad? If Slovan creates MHL team in future, it will be good for developing. MHL is better than slovak U20 league. Bad for you?

I can imagine the same scenario in Czech rep, Sweden, Finland. I dont believe it happens in north europe but I dont see negatives. Developing system will be the same, only one or more senior clubs will play KHL. These clubs can play Elitserien as well. Non-russian KHL club does not have to build MHL team if you dont know.

Quote:
Anyway, if you remove 2/3 big markets from individual nations and put them in the KHL, what becomes of the domestic leagues left behind? Gone are their big franchises, TV contract and money goes down the hole, incentive to develop players goes, prestige of winning national league decreases.
your theory. I can give you real proof. HC LEV played this season in Slovakia. Your scenario did not happen. HC LEV will play next season in Prague. What happens? CKD as onwer HC LEV gave money to czech federation. You complain about decreaing money for domestic league, I give say you are wrong.

Quote:
KHL doesn't want to unite Europe. The KHL doesn't really care how development goes in many European nations. It cares about having a strong domestic league and about rivalling the NHL. You think the KHL really gives a damn about how youth hockey progresses in western European countries?
you should read or dicsuss with people working for MHL. They want to cooperate with europe nations to make domestic junior leagues better, to stop luring kids to CHL. MHL does not want to lure czech, finn, swede, slovak or so clubs. They only want to play international games like World Cup, to share knowledge.

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04-16-2012, 10:54 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Obviously the NHL hasn't paid what i think it should have.

The NHL can hinder youth development in Europe, but you think creating a 2nd "Global league", thus destroying domestic competition even more, helps domestic development anymore than the NHL does? I find that hard to believe.




When have i ever blamed the KHL for ruining domestic leagues. I said such an idea that is being proposed could damage domestic development long-term.

What happens for the Juniors not involved with Slovan? As usual, all you look at is the benefit to one (the one involved with Russian hockey), the others don't get the benefit of being in the KHL. Where is the benefit for the rest? There is no benefit for the teams that don't make this "elite".



It's indictative of the sham that Czech hockey is currently in that they intend on having teams in a newly formed Russian Junior system, instead of being able to rely on their own Junior system.



This doesn't have any relevance to the original concept ; An elite Pan-European league, which has a select few teams from each nation. At no point have you actually responded the my actual points (as ususal) ; what happens to those left behind? It's like your some propaganda artist Vorky. Never quite answer/reply to the actual question.

A Junior world Cups is a fine idea, but it isn't splitting up and ruining domestic leagues is it?

KHL doesn't want to unite Europe. The KHL doesn't really care how development goes in many European nations. It cares about having a strong domestic league and about rivalling the NHL. You think the KHL really gives a damn about how youth hockey progresses in western European countries? If so, you must be incredibly naive.
I think you made some good points here and I mainly agree. Too bad we can just talk, that's what we do, we can't do anything about what's happening. So I just take existence of KHL as fact and if they want to become new NHL, so be it. In such case I prefer KHL to become as big as possible to at least have great players in Europe instead of NA.

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