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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

U-18 WJC Day 3 games

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04-15-2012, 08:05 PM
  #226
Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
Really? Let’s see if I can prove that Canada has been in a lull since 2010…

**

From 2003 until 2005, Canada produced the following top quality players…

Fluery, E Staal, Horton, Colburn, Jeff Carter, Seabrook, Getzlaf, Burns, Mike Richards, Perry, Bergeron, Weber, Carcillo, Brian Elliot, Ladd, Zajac, Green, Versteeg, Crosby, Price, M Staal, James Neal, Vlasic, Letang, and Helm to name a few.


**

From 2006 until 2009, Canada produced the following top quality players…

J Staal, Toews, Bernier, Little, Giroux, Lucic, Seabrook, Marchand, Sutter, Benn, Stamkos, Doughty, Myers, Pieterangelo, Boychuk, Hodgson, Del Zotto, Eberle, Ennis, Henrique, Taveres, Duchene, Kane, Brayden Schenn to name a few…


**

From 2010 until 2011, Canada has produced the following top quality players…

Hall, Seguin, Skinner, RHN, Couturier.

(* Feel free to add anyone I have missed from 2010, 2011 and the BIG stars that will be coming from Canada in the 2012 Draft - which is considered to be the weakest since 1999.*)


**

It is no coincidence that Canada won 5 WJR Gold’s from 2005 to 2009 with our best players in the NHL.

Canada is in its worst lull since the late 1990's and it has cost us the last 3 WJR's. So, while you see the rest of the world catching up, I see Canada pulling to the side of the road for a pit stop. Hopefully, we will see things get better after this year's pitiful draft.

Anyway, I look forward to your reply.
National teams move in cycles of boom and bust, so that supports your point. But I definitely believe that Sweden, Finland, the US and Russia have made improvements that makes it difficult for any one team to consistently win, year after year.

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04-15-2012, 08:05 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
In Canada somehow the name ''star'' is attached to any somewhat good NHL player. No wonder Russians wonder a lot about Canadian ''stars'' and how many of them there are... If you asked a Russian to compile a list of ''stars'' in NHL, he'd probably come up with the total of 15-20 players...
A lot of such ''stars'' from 2010 and 2011 are still either in juniors or AHL and still need a year or two to mature so there's no use to take such recent drafts and present them as evidence that there are no stars. Huberdeau will definitely be a star, for example
Some of those names are a bit of a stretch in terms of calling a player a star. However one has to admit that Canada has been producing the highest end talent for the last ten years. The top rated 18 year olds from the last decade (2000 to now) have been 7 Canadians, 3 Russians, 3 Americans. And that's not because of some perceived Russian factor. Those were the best players. Russians have produced some high level players, but probably not in the sheer numbers that the Canadians have.

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04-15-2012, 08:10 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
National teams move in cycles of boom and bust, so that supports your point. But I definitely believe that Sweden, Finland, the US and Russia have made improvements that makes it difficult for any one team to consistently win, year after year.
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Some of those names are a bit of a stretch in terms of calling a player a star. However one has to admit that Canada has been producing the highest end talent for the last ten years. The top rated 18 year olds from the last decade (2000 to now) have been 7 Canadians, 3 Russians, 3 Americans. And that's not because of some perceived Russian factor. Those were the best players. Russians have produced some high level players, but probably not in the sheer numbers that the Canadians have.
That's fair boys. Forgive me if I get too protective of Canadian hockey. Can't help it!


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04-15-2012, 08:14 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
Feel free to remove anyone you want from my first 2 lists and then convince me that Canada is not in a lull from 2010 to 2012.
Feel free to look at the 2010, 2011 and add whomever you want - Huberdeau. Look at the upcoming 2012 drafts and feel free to do the same.

I changed the titles from 'Star' to 'Top Quality' players.

Re : "If you asked a Russian to compile a list of ''stars'' in NHL, he'd probably come up with the total of 15-20 players..."

That would be hard to believe given there were only 31 Russians in the NHL in 2011-2012.


I would take your recent list and remove these names

J Staal, Bernier, Little, Lucic, Marchand, Sutter, Myers, Boychuk, Hodgson, Del Zotto, Ennis, Henrique, Kane, Brayden Schenn to name a few…

I don't think they have reached star status yet.

Leaves (in my view) stars since 2006 (it seems that is your cut off)

Toews, Giroux, Benn, Stamkos, Doughty, Pieterangelo, Eberle, Taveres, Duchene,



It's tough to judge the current crop of Canadian players to see if there is really a lull, rather than one off year.

The players above, Giroux, Benn, Eberle etc none of them were projected as stars when they were drafted. So you don't really know how to compare the current draft stock because they haven't played yet.

The only way to really compare it is how players were rated in the past.

Consider that

2006 4 of top 10 draftees Canadian
2007 7 of 10
2008 6 of 10
2009 7 of 10
2010 7 of 10
2011 6 of 10

I don't see a lull there. The worst year was 2006 and I'd venture the guess that at least 4 of the top 10 picks this year will be Canadian.

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04-15-2012, 08:19 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
I would take your recent list and remove these names

J Staal, Bernier, Little, Lucic, Marchand, Sutter, Myers, Boychuk, Hodgson, Del Zotto, Ennis, Henrique, Kane, Brayden Schenn to name a few…

I don't think they have reached star status yet.

Leaves (in my view) stars since 2006 (it seems that is your cut off)

Toews, Giroux, Benn, Stamkos, Doughty, Pieterangelo, Eberle, Taveres, Duchene,



It's tough to judge the current crop of Canadian players to see if there is really a lull, rather than one off year.

The players above, Giroux, Benn, Eberle etc none of them were projected as stars when they were drafted. So you don't really know how to compare the current draft stock because they haven't played yet.

The only way to really compare it is how players were rated in the past.

Consider that

2006 4 of top 10 draftees Canadian
2007 7 of 10
2008 6 of 10
2009 7 of 10
2010 7 of 10
2011 6 of 10

I don't see a lull there. The worst year was 2006 and I'd venture the guess that at least 4 of the top 10 picks this year will be Canadian.
When I wrote my original post I titled the players "Stars". I then felt it was too strong and wrote "Top Quality" players.
I think all of my inclusion fall under that category.

Re : "The only way to really compare it is how players were rated in the past."

I disagree. A player can be the best in his class but if his class stinks, it means nothing compared to other years.

Re : "It's tough to judge the current crop of Canadian players to see if there is really a lull, rather than one off year."

I don't feel it is a one year off. Canada has had 3 weak years. It also had 3 weak years from 1999 - 2001.

I feel if you compare the years 2003 - 2005, 2006 - 2009, 2010 - 2012 in a few years you will see the latter is by far the weakest class.


Last edited by OttawaRoughRiderFan: 04-15-2012 at 08:25 PM.
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04-15-2012, 08:28 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
When I wrote my original post I titled the players "Stars". I then felt it was too strong and wrote "Top Quality" players.
I think all of my inclusion fall under that category.

Re : "The only way to really compare it is how players were rated in the past."

I disagree. A player can be the best in his class but if his class stinks, it means nothing compared to other years.

Re : "It's tough to judge the current crop of Canadian players to see if there is really a lull, rather than one off year."

I don't feel it is a one year off. Canada has had 3 weak years. It also had 3 weak years from 1999 - 2001.

I feel if you compare the years 2003 - 2005, 2006 - 2009, 2010 - 2012 in a few years you will see the latter is by far the weakest class.

Well we can only judge in several years then. My point about you can only judge based on coming into the draft from each year is that you don't know how this crop or last year 2011 is a good or bad crop.

I mean when the 2007 draft was taken today, would you project the #43 pick to be the best Canadian drafted?

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04-15-2012, 08:37 PM
  #232
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Well we can only judge in several years then. My point about you can only judge based on coming into the draft from each year is that you don't know how this crop or last year 2011 is a good or bad crop.
That is true. 2011 was suppose to be painfully weak and yet the Top 10 players have turned out to be pretty good.
Also, a few years ago, 2012 was looking very strong and it fell of a cliff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
I mean when the 2007 draft was taken today, would you project the #43 pick to be the best Canadian drafted?
I think Logan Couture and Brandon Sutter might disagree with you but I see your point.

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04-15-2012, 08:49 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
That is true. 2011 was suppose to be painfully weak and yet the Top 10 players have turned out to be pretty good.
Also, a few years ago, 2012 was looking very strong and it fell of a cliff.



I think Logan Couture and Brandon Sutter might disagree with you but I see your point.
I see your Couture and you are probably right, he might be better than Subban. Sutter, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about him.

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04-15-2012, 09:00 PM
  #234
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[QUOTE=KevyD;48093879]

Fluery, E Staal, Horton, Colburn, Jeff Carter, Seabrook, Getzlaf, Burns, Mike Richards, Perry, Bergeron, Weber, Carcillo, Brian Elliot, Ladd, Zajac, Green, Versteeg, Crosby, Price, M Staal, James Neal, Vlasic, Letang, and Helm to name a few.[/B][/COLOR]

**

QUOTE]

Really?..........

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04-15-2012, 09:06 PM
  #235
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[QUOTE=wings5;48110597]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevyD View Post

Fluery, E Staal, Horton, Colburn, Jeff Carter, Seabrook, Getzlaf, Burns, Mike Richards, Perry, Bergeron, Weber, Carcillo, Brian Elliot, Ladd, Zajac, Green, Versteeg, Crosby, Price, M Staal, James Neal, Vlasic, Letang, and Helm to name a few.[/B][/COLOR]

**

QUOTE]

Really?..........
You got me there.

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04-15-2012, 09:06 PM
  #236
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Almost all of the young stars in NHL are canadian, look at rookie scoring the last couple of years and it's obvious that Canada is in a good place. In a short tournament like wjc , theres a couple of other countries that can win. Looking at the big picture it's clear that Canada is miles ahead of the rest of the pack though and so they should be with the amount of junior players and resources they got.

The competition is getting a bit better though
USA is doing fine, but should perhaps be able to produce more top-10 draftpicks. Sweden is doing alright, Finland is getting on the right track again after some so-so years. Russia is finally climbing back to it's rightful place as one of the main producers of high end talent. Czech rep. and Slovakia should be able to do better, and probably will. Countries like Switzerland and Germany will likely see a increase in NHL-players, especially Switzerland seems to have a pretty bright future ahead of them.

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04-15-2012, 09:09 PM
  #237
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Almost all of the young stars in NHL are canadian, look at rookie scoring the last couple of years and it's obvious that Canada is in a good place.
Great point and one I missed.

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Old
04-15-2012, 09:22 PM
  #238
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I am NOT saying Canada has not had very good players over the last 3 years - 2010 to 2012. They have had some great one. I am just saying we came off some years in the 2000's where we were off the charts. The lack of that kind of depth since 2010 has cost us at the WJR's when out best players were in the NHL.

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