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MAF has a Save% under .900 4 straight series

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Old
04-15-2012, 09:16 PM
  #51
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MAF's not playing well but he's not the biggest problem. Look at how many times he has to go side to side. That shouldn't happen that much in the show. That shouldn't happen that much in peewee.

He's had some goals go through him but even then I think he's so worried about players behind him that he can't "solidify".

Any butterfly goalie needs a strong box in front of him so he can go down, lock up and make saves. The defense almost has to cut the ice in half. Thats why Gill and Scuds worked so well around MAF.

Now the Pens have a panty wipe defense. They're mobile but it wasn't needed. Playing like a bunch of unstructered thugs just adds to the mess.

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04-15-2012, 09:19 PM
  #52
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He doesn't look anything like the guy from the year we won the cup. I remember the first round against the Flyers, in that series he literally stole 2 games by himself that we had no business winning. Our defense was not worse than it is today but still he was really something.

This year, he was awesome all year long but started his recent slump against the Isles 3 weeks ago and it went downhill from there. What the **** happened?!?!

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04-15-2012, 09:19 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
This series is not on MAF. He made a handful of HUGE saves in gm 1 before we pissed it away. There have been way too many flyers alone in our zone for way too much time. Too many breakdowns allowing breakaways or odd man rushes.
Exactly. This is the reason Jams Neal went overboard on Geroux near the end IMO. Once again there are 2 or 3 Flyers standing around all alone in our end. Neal had enough and went after him in an attempt to prevent giving up another free shot where the opposing player has an eternity to size up the goalie and put the puck wherever he wants. Say what you will about the hit to the head etc but he didn't score b/c Neal was one of the only players to say "I'm tired of this Sh** and I'm going to do something about it". I didn't think he was head hunting but just trying to hit him and prevent giving up another freebee.

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04-15-2012, 09:22 PM
  #54
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The first goal can't happen... it deflates the team. You can say he played pretty good in the first game aside from the OT and it would be accurate. But he's been a mess since then...

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04-15-2012, 09:52 PM
  #55
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Yeah, I mean I'm not saying it's all on Fleury or to get rid of the guy or anything, but at some point the excuses have to stop. So many times I'll see him let in a questionable goal and his defenders come flocking out crying "Martin!" or "The defense didn't clear the rebounds!". Well maybe if he didn't lay the juicy rebound out there in the first place, it wouldn't be a problem. Besides, you know what? That **** happens. It's the NHL. The guy is going to have to make some tough saves. Only expecting him to make the gimme saves and then deeming that to be an "elite" performance is pretty ridiculous.


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Old
04-15-2012, 10:03 PM
  #56
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Yeah, I mean I'm not saying it's all on Fleury or to get rid of the guy or anything, but at some point the excuses have to stop. So many times I'll see him let in a questionable goal and his defenders come flocking out crying "Martin!" or "The defense didn't clear the rebounds!". Well maybe if he didn't lay the juicy rebound out there in the first place, it wouldn't be a problem. Besides, you know what? That **** happens. It's the NHL. The guy is going to have to make some tough says. Only expecting him to make the gimme saves and then deeming that to be an "elite" performance is pretty ridiculous.


His rebound on jagrs gwg in game 2 is a perfect example. Super weak puck on net, he just casually lays the paddle down and puts the rebound right out into the slot.

This was a rebound a junior a goalie could redirect to the outside.

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04-15-2012, 10:10 PM
  #57
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I still think Fleury is a top ten goalie and this series doesn't change that imo. This has been an awful series for him no doubt but he's had absolutely no help. I can't count the number of odd man rushes the flyers have had. Obviously something has to change but its not just Fleury cause throwing another goalie in there with the kind of help Fleury gets isn't going to fix things, its only going to get worse. The only way it doesn't get worse is if you get an elite goalie like Rinne or Lundqvist.

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Old
04-15-2012, 10:15 PM
  #58
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Trade him Martin and Kennedy

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Old
04-15-2012, 10:19 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by sarahjane14 View Post
I still think Fleury is a top ten goalie and this series doesn't change that imo. This has been an awful series for him no doubt but he's had absolutely no help. I can't count the number of odd man rushes the flyers have had. Obviously something has to change but its not just Fleury cause throwing another goalie in there with the kind of help Fleury gets isn't going to fix things, its only going to get worse. The only way it doesn't get worse is if you get an elite goalie like Rinne or Lundqvist.
Top 10 goalie is fairly arguable. But there are those on here that think he's practically the best goalie in the league and is only held back by his defense. That's pretty off the mark in my opinion.

Also, to be clear, I'm not putting this all on Fleury. You're right, no goalie would look good behind a defense playing like this. But he's had his share of individual gaffes in this series so far(the first goal today was so bad I actually laughed when it happened). Also, his playoff resume seems to be getting worse as we go along here. It's odd that his regular seasons have improved, and his playoff performances have deteriorated. Either way, I think the guy is good enough as our starter to get the job done. I just think people need to be a little more realistic about him.

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04-15-2012, 10:25 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
Top 10 goalie is fairly arguable. But there are those on here that think he's practically the best goalie in the league and is only held back by his defense. That's pretty off the mark in my opinion.

Also, to be clear, I'm not putting this all on Fleury. You're right, no goalie would look good behind a defense playing like this. But he's had his share of individual gaffes in this series so far(the first goal today was so bad I actually laughed when it happened). Also, his playoff resume seems to be getting worse as we go along here. It's odd that his regular seasons have improved, and his playoff performances have deteriorated. Either way, I think the guy is good enough as our starter to get the job done. I just think people need to be a little more realistic about him.
His defence, does hold him back, quite a bit. He's inconsistent though, but no goalie is gonna put up the huge save % numbers behind the Pens defence.

And he's stunk in this series (though I will say, was fairly good for most of game 1, but even then, he did allow one softie, and it's been all downhill from there).

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Old
04-15-2012, 10:26 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
Top 10 goalie is fairly arguable. But there are those on here that think he's practically the best goalie in the league and is only held back by his defense. That's pretty off the mark in my opinion.

Also, to be clear, I'm not putting this all on Fleury. You're right, no goalie would look good behind a defense playing like this. But he's had his share of individual gaffes in this series so far(the first goal today was so bad I actually laughed when it happened). Also, his playoff resume seems to be getting worse as we go along here. It's odd that his regular seasons have improved, and his playoff performances have deteriorated. Either way, I think the guy is good enough as our starter to get the job done. I just think people need to be a little more realistic about him.
Fleury's nowhere near top 5. But he is around top 10 whether thats 8-9 or 11-12. Wherever he is, he's still in the top tier of goalies. That said, Fleury's probably always gonna be that goalie that when he has a bad game, he has an atrocious game, its just he usually bounces back. However, he hasn't been given much of a chance to come back in this series, and who knows, maybe Fleury is overextending himself knowing how bad his D is being and its just not working for him. Or maybe, its just bad luck.

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Old
04-15-2012, 10:31 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by sarahjane14 View Post
Fleury's nowhere near top 5. But he is around top 10 whether thats 8-9 or 11-12. Wherever he is, he's still in the top tier of goalies. That said, Fleury's probably always gonna be that goalie that when he has a bad game, he has an atrocious game, its just he usually bounces back. However, he hasn't been given much of a chance to come back in this series, and who knows, maybe Fleury is overextending himself knowing how bad his D is being and its just not working for him. Or maybe, its just bad luck.
I think there's also a very valid "fatigue" argument to be made. It's obvious the coaching staff doesn't trust Johnson as a capable backup anymore and as a result, Fleury had a pretty good workload this year. Not just in total number of games, but also in the fact that he's usually left in a lot longer than he should be when it's clearly not his night. Today was a prime example. A more reliable backup would be nice to relieve some of the pressure.

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04-15-2012, 10:36 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
I think there's also a very valid "fatigue" argument to be made. It's obvious the coaching staff doesn't trust Johnson as a capable backup anymore and as a result, Fleury had a pretty good workload this year. Not just in total number of games, but also in the fact that he's usually left in a lot longer than he should be when it's clearly not his night. Today was a prime example. A more reliable backup would be nice to relieve some of the pressure.
Rinne, Quick, Niemi, and Smith all played as many or more games as Fleury this year and managed not to monumentally **** the bed. They've done quite well, actually.

Fleury just wilted.

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04-15-2012, 10:42 PM
  #64
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Rinne, Quick, Niemi, and Smith all played as many or more games as Fleury this year and managed not to monumentally **** the bed. They've done quite well, actually.

Fleury just wilted.
Well, in my defense, I'm trying not to come across as a Fleury basher here(something I've been called a few times for whatever reason).

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04-15-2012, 10:47 PM
  #65
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Well, in my defense, I'm trying not to come across as a Fleury basher here(something I've been called a few times for whatever reason).
Yeah. I just want to make sure people aren't trying to rationalize Fleury's play here. He hasn't had it any worse than a fair number of starting goalies in terms of games played. He's still young, and he's gone on record as loving the workload.

He just straight-up sucked this series, pure and simple.

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04-15-2012, 10:51 PM
  #66
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MAF's not playing well but he's not the biggest problem. Look at how many times he has to go side to side. That shouldn't happen that much in the show. That shouldn't happen that much in peewee.

He's had some goals go through him but even then I think he's so worried about players behind him that he can't "solidify".

Any butterfly goalie needs a strong box in front of him so he can go down, lock up and make saves. The defense almost has to cut the ice in half. Thats why Gill and Scuds worked so well around MAF.

Now the Pens have a panty wipe defense. They're mobile but it wasn't needed. Playing like a bunch of unstructered thugs just adds to the mess.
Well said.

That aside, I would like to see a good back-up brought in during the summer. Someone who can push Fleury and we can go too if MAF isn't getting the job done. Harding, Lindback, Bernier could all be possibilities

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04-15-2012, 10:55 PM
  #67
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Yeah. I just want to make sure people aren't trying to rationalize Fleury's play here. He hasn't had it any worse than a fair number of starting goalies in terms of games played. He's still young, and he's gone on record as loving the workload.

He just straight-up sucked this series, pure and simple.
Oh I agree, he's been terrible. Believe me, I've argued many times on here that Fleury is an adequate starter and that's about it. But at this point, we know he's not going anywhere. Maybe it would be worth it to look into getting a backup that they're comfortable letting Fleury split time with. The playoff struggles are becoming a trend, but his regular seasons have gotten a little better. So what other conclusion can you come to other than some kind of fatigue late in the year? I mean, yeah, there's more pressure in playoffs, but the guy has been to the finals twice. He won a cup on the road in a game 7 making a last second save. I can't imagine playoff pressure is still throwing him off this much.

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04-15-2012, 10:56 PM
  #68
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So anyone have any thoughts on Vokoun? I mentioned him earlier and don't think anyone has bit. He started off poorly for WSH this year, but then picked up his game, then WSH went through another dry spell and was pretty much kicked to the curb. I mean he was outplaying Neuvirth by a decent bit but Carter put him in the doghouse and that was that. I would totally be for giving him a one-year deal if Pens can't find a decent young goalie to come in and compete.

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04-15-2012, 10:58 PM
  #69
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Oh I agree, he's been terrible. Believe me, I've argued many times on here that Fleury is an adequate starter and that's about it. But at this point, we know he's not going anywhere. Maybe it would be worth it to look into getting a backup that they're comfortable letting Fleury split time with. The playoff struggles are becoming a trend, but his regular seasons have gotten a little better. So what other conclusion can you come to other than some kind of fatigue late in the year? I mean, yeah, there's more pressure in playoffs, but the guy has been to the finals twice. He won a cup on the road in a game 7 making a last second save. I can't imagine playoff pressure is still throwing him off this much.
I don't know what his problem is. But I know plenty of other goalies have had his workload (and more) and still thrived.

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04-15-2012, 10:58 PM
  #70
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Well said.

That aside, I would like to see a good back-up brought in during the summer. Someone who can push Fleury and we can go too if MAF isn't getting the job done. Harding, Lindback, Bernier could all be possibilities
Agreed. We'll probably never know what's causing Fleury's issues all of a sudden, but if you consider it's just carry over from the end of the regular season, the only logical explanation is that he was overworked during the regular season. And it's hard to blame that on Bylsma, considering how poorly Johnson (and then Thiessen) looked.

Fleury's best playoff performance was in 08. It might not be a coincidence that he was limited to only 40 games in the regular season because of that ankle sprain.

He was shakey for parts of the 09 playoffs but got the job done when it counted, and has been putrid since.

I'm certainly not saying he should be limited to 40 regular season starts, but like you said, he needs a backup that can push him for playing time and allow us to ride out his slumps.. And it'll keep Fleury fresher for the playoffs. None of this veteran mentor crap, we just need someone that can flat-out play.

I like Harding. I'd also look at Dan Ellis or Chris Mason. Maybe even Gustavsson.


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04-15-2012, 11:39 PM
  #71
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Elephant in the room.

The defense was horrible this series, so nobody wants to talk about just how average Fleury has been the last three playoff series.
No one is willing to admit the entire team was average the last three either.

It'd be nice to see Malkin show up for once. Dude's lucky that the MVP voting has nothing to do with playoff performance, because he'd sure as hell lose a piss load of votes.

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04-15-2012, 11:56 PM
  #72
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No one is willing to admit the entire team was average the last three either.

It'd be nice to see Malkin show up for once. Dude's lucky that the MVP voting has nothing to do with playoff performance, because he'd sure as hell lose a piss load of votes.
Yeah, I don't know what's going on with him, but it is unacceptable for him to be a no-show.

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04-16-2012, 12:01 AM
  #73
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Yeah, I don't know what's going on with him, but it is unacceptable for him to be a no-show.
last 12 play off games one goal, even his biggest fan in the world is pissed

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04-16-2012, 05:15 AM
  #74
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So anyone have any thoughts on Vokoun? I mentioned him earlier and don't think anyone has bit. He started off poorly for WSH this year, but then picked up his game, then WSH went through another dry spell and was pretty much kicked to the curb. I mean he was outplaying Neuvirth by a decent bit but Carter put him in the doghouse and that was that. I would totally be for giving him a one-year deal if Pens can't find a decent young goalie to come in and compete.
I think MaF is better than vokoun. I also think pens should trade one of there forwards(staal or neal) for some top flight d men. MaF seems to lose confidence every now and then and when it happens his game goes down the drain but when hes on hes great.

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04-16-2012, 07:49 AM
  #75
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I held up tongue all year long while the Fleury love-fest was going on. Talk of a Vezina nomination-LOL and stuff like that. I wanted to remind people of what we've been enduring during the playoffs the last few years. He is one of the worst 5 goalies in the league. He has been for a while. The team has a pretty good defense if you take him out and put a real goalie in. Give us Luongo and i bet we'd have won a game or two. Its that bad..

<80 save % through a series has got to be historic. I hope something changes soon. I hate to see all this potential wasted because we are too invested in this guy. No one really understands how much harder it is on the D if the goalie plays this badly. It totally destroys their confidence too.

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