I agree about Potvin, but not really Jagr... and I tend to think Jagr is typically underrated around here.
Jagr wouldn't even be in my top 10 for best 'peak' by forwards.
Re-read that and tell me where I'm confused
Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck
It gets awfully close if you factor in playoffs. I can understand Jagr, but Lidstrom is getting a bit shafted as far as 'peak' goes. At his best Lidstrom was unarguably the best offensive defenseman in the world and one of the best defensive dmen in history. Add in that he was near superhuman in terms of health, rarely committed a penalty and actually 'upped' his play in the playoffs, and I absolutely question anyone who thinks 'Jagr, AINEC'
Lidstrom was only the best offensive D-men "unarguably" due to lack of competition for it, not because he was even one of the top 10 offensive d-men in history.
Jagr put up multiple Art Ross margins of victory only surpassed by Gretz, Mario and Gordie.
Lidstrom definitely has been among the best defensive d-men to ever play but as noted in the Carbonneau thread, offense takes more talent than defense does.
Jagr be a decent margin. Lidstrom's greatness is more built upon phenomenal consistency than peak performance (of course he had a great peak as well). If Lidstrom had a peak as strong as Jagr's I would put him as the second best defenceman of all time easily.
It gets awfully close if you factor in playoffs. I can understand Jagr, but Lidstrom is getting a bit shafted as far as 'peak' goes. At his best Lidstrom was unarguably the best offensive defenseman in the world and one of the best defensive dmen in history. Add in that he was near superhuman in terms of health, rarely committed a penalty and actually 'upped' his play in the playoffs, and I absolutely question anyone who thinks 'Jagr, AINEC'
Really? When was his best then? You can't just say something like that and not assign a year to when he was "at his best."
Go ahead and champion Gonchar as better offensively than Lidstrom, but I find it a very tough sell.
Actually, I really can't debate defensemen with you, simply because we weigh them so differently. Just pounding walls on both sides.
I'm not even saying Gonchar was better offensively. I simply pointed out that Gonchar was pretty much on par with him offensively and Lidstrom was NOT "unarguably" the best offensive d-men during the times you listed.
You can't debate me because the facts, the offensive facts, do not support your "weighing".
Was Lidstrom among the best D-men in the league over the time frame you indicated (2000-2008)...yes.
The statement that he was unarguably the best offensive D-man during that time however is quite false.
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Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
You realize we are talking about peak and not prime, right? You can't just give a range of eight seasons. When was Lidstrom at his PEAK?
I think his prime was much longer than that... Some players have a longer peak than others. During that period I believe his defense was out of this world and that is what I weigh the most for Dmen (but it's tough to say a specific year where he was at his absolute best defensively... What year was Harvey best defensively?), he was consistently the best playoff performer in the world, and lastly, he was putting up more points than any other defenseman in the world. It would be easy to just pick out his best offensive years and call that his peak, but I don't think it is as simple as that.
I think his prime was much longer than that... Some players have a longer peak than others. During that period I believe his defense was out of this world and that is what I weigh the most for Dmen (but it's tough to say a specific year where he was at his absolute best defensively... What year was Harvey best defensively?), he was consistently the best playoff performer in the world, and lastly, he was putting up more points than any other defenseman in the world. It would be easy to just pick out his best offensive years and call that his peak, but I don't think it is as simple as that.
Again though, this is about Jagr vs Lidstrom and you're not going to be able to place Lidstrom ahead of Jagr based on who Lidstrom ranked with or above.
With the exception of the two years that Mario played almost full seasons (95/96 and 96/97), Jagr was the best offensive player by, at times, large margins from 95-01.
We're talking about burying players like Sakic, Forsberg, Lindros, Kariya, Bure and Selanne.
Lidstrom didn't bury anyone and he was only up against Niedermayer, Pronger, Chara and an aged MacInnis during the time frame you indicated as his peak.
Not only did Jagr face a higher level of competition at his position during his peak than Lidstrom did but he also buried that higher level of competition by greater margins than Lidstrom.
Lidstrom is ranked where he is because his level of play was so good for so very long. As far as D-men go, only Bourque was better for longer.
But Lidstrom's level of play, as good as it was, never reached the heights that others did.
Jagr was also very good for a long time but what's more, Jagr did reach those heights where he was clearly in a class by himself and against better competition at forward than Lidstrom had at defense.
You wanna talk career vs career, THEN, you'd have a good argument but peak vs peak....I'm sorry to use this HF cliche but it's not even close.
From 1980/81 until 2000/01, only 3 players saw their names go on the Art Ross trophy. Jagr was one of them, 5 times in fact and there's a reason for that.
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 04-16-2012 at 03:31 PM.
I think his prime was much longer than that... Some players have a longer peak than others. During that period I believe his defense was out of this world and that is what I weigh the most for Dmen (but it's tough to say a specific year where he was at his absolute best defensively... What year was Harvey best defensively?), he was consistently the best playoff performer in the world, and lastly, he was putting up more points than any other defenseman in the world. It would be easy to just pick out his best offensive years and call that his peak, but I don't think it is as simple as that.
You're really not going to name a single season and say, This is Lidstrom at his best., are you? 2003-04 happening in the middle of his stretch of play from 2000-2008 shows that he wasn't some perfectly plateaued player who never fluctuated offensively or defensively.
It really comes across as you trying to hide behind Lidstrom's strong prime rather than say that when he was at his highest level (2000 or 2006), there were better players at several positions - with Jagr being one of them both seasons.
Jagr. He was a generational talent. One of the best ever. Lidstrom is the best in a weak era for d-men. His defensive play is part team system and his offensive play is not special historically. He does have terrific longevity however Jagr's peak IMHO was pretty long for a forward. There needs to be an adjustment when comparing peaks between positions. There should also be an adjustment for physical vs non-physical players longevity. Perhaps the available talent to share the load.
Who's better right now in these playoffs? Jagr or Lidstrom?
Who's better right now in these playoffs? Jagr or Lidstrom?
To be fair, Lidstrom is 2 years older and is playing on a bad ankle. Age is catching up with him but it's probably been exaggerated in these playoffs due to his injury.
To be fair, Lidstrom is 2 years older and is playing on a bad ankle. Age is catching up with him but it's probably been exaggerated in these playoffs due to his injury.
It may also be fair to point out Jagr's absence from the NHL.
Strangley enough, they both seem becoming two undervalued players. They are (in my eyes) the best forward post Wayne/Mario and the best defencemen post Bourque/Potvin.
I´m very split in my decision. Jagrs peak is greater, Lidströms is longer. Or, that answered the question since it was "at very best". I´d had to say Jagr. He was (like Lindros and Forsberg, if staying in the DPE) an unstoppable force.
That said: Heading into the playoffs I would take Lidström even in Jagrs greatest years, but that´s probably because of how I value positions (building from a great PMD makes Feffan happy...). On the other side, prime Jagr never got to play with the elite teams that Lidström did...
And don´t agree on the "Lidstrom defensive is part system". Lidström is the reason the system works. And I think the weak era for d-men-card is played out to much. Sure, if in his prime he would have to compete with prime versions of Chelios, MacInnis or Bourque he wouldn´t have as many Norris. But he would also snag a few from them. Then, I don´t like to count awards judging players. And excelling above you´re adversarys should be a good thing, not held against you.
Also, offense may take more raw talent than defense does - but I think defence is harder to really excell in. Moves that works at offence in juniors or lower leagues probably works in the NHL, just not as often. High level defence on NHL-level is something that you gotta learn by playing at that level for years.
One thing to Lidströms case may be that he´s higher on his "position-chart". I would personally rank only Orr, Bourque, Potvin and maybe Fetisov ahead (not having seen Harvey and Shore...). Jagr probably don´t crack many peoples top 10, even if he probably will when there´s more distance to his career. That said, there´s generally more talent up front. Or at least easier judged talent, since defencemen are generally harder to judge by numbers. So the point may be moot. And, that probably belongs in a career-thread. After babbeling more than needed, once again: Jagr at the very peak.
If you look at regular season peak then it's clearly Jagr by the overwhelming strength of his numbers and how he carried a pretty weak team.
I think one could argue Lidstrom claws back at least some of the gap (although certainly not all of it) based on two factors:
1. More of Lidstrom's high-level regular seasons line up with his high-level playoff performances. Notice that Jagr has 4 playoff runs where he played more than 14 games (so the equivalent of two 7-game series): 91 and 92 where he was not even a 70 point regular season scorer yet, 01 where he was disappointing in the playoffs after winning the Art Ross (and allegedly a locker room problem, with one foot already out the door), and 96 where he did have a great regular season and very strong playoffs. Lidstrom on the other hand has two seasons where he won the Norris trophy and the Stanley Cup (02 and 08, with a Conn Smythe in 02 and being the captain in 08) as well as a Stanley Cup/Norris runner-up year (98) and in 07 he was a Norris winner and had a great playoff (that ended in the conference finals).
2. Lidstrom probably wins on the intangibles aspect, depending on how much one cares about such things. I find some of Jagr's reputation is a bit overblown in terms of being a negative in the locker room and so on, but there's no question he was causing issues towards the end of his Pittsburgh run. Lidstrom on the other hand has captained a Stanley Cup champion (that almost went back-to-back) and has never, ever had any of the questions that have surrounded Jagr asked about him.
