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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 2

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04-16-2012, 04:05 AM
  #251
ProstheticConscience
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Hey wait. Burke built this team, didn't he? That's said on a daily basis on the main board and the Leafs' forum. Let's blame him and Nonis! Hell, let's give it a shot. Might make us feel better.

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04-16-2012, 04:06 AM
  #252
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Those are good stats, but I wasn't trying to argue any of them.

I was just saying that AV gets a free pass because of his regular season performances.

He has his share of the responsibility for the state of the PP as well.
Yeah, I'm getting to the point where I'm starting phantom arguments ... bed time

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04-16-2012, 04:08 AM
  #253
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whose gonna replace coach av? besides Mact as the obvious. maybe gillis goes left-field and hires an assistant from another team or finds someone in the dub. or ahl coaches whose contracts are expiring.

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04-16-2012, 04:10 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Which adjustments did they make that made a difference?
I would have to watch it again to tell you specifically, they weren't major adjustments but I do remember thinking at the time that there were definite shifts in how they were playing (mostly offensively and the way they moved the puck once they gained the zone). It's been too long to remember that kind of stuff, I don't paid to do this for a living after all.

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Which adjustments would you make if you were in AVs shoes now? Im curious.
I'm not sure at this point. I think we came into this series with the wrong mindset from Game 1.

We should've come in and played the left wing lock, because the Kings just don't have the speed or the PMD to break through effectively on a regular basis. That would've averted the utter disaster that was the first two periods of Game 1. Yes, we're the better team but we weren't scoring much over the last 3 months of the regular season and putting the pressure on the Kings to be the more aggressive team would create some space for us to do our thing.

On the offensive end, we know that Quick is susceptible on high shots, tends to go down early, and is a bit overaggressive — make him move side to side, try and get short back and forth passes going in the zone (even if it's with the D), focus on getting one-timers, stop trying to cycle behind the net as Quick's lateral movement is great and you're just not getting much done there (mostly getting abused by LA's physical and big D). Having a guy crashing and just in general hanging around Quick's blocker side would help, as right now I see us clumping around his glove side — the 2nd line has been especially bad at this as most of the rebounds end up on Quick's left side with no one there.

On the PP, just move the puck quickly and don't be stationary. The Kings tend to have two guys attack the puck carrier, you need to allow them to leave their position but not wait too long to move the puck, and keep moving it, with time the box would sufficiently fall apart and present opportunities. Our big problem on the PP was the fact that the Kings were certain we would 1) be stationary, and 2) would take a while to move the puck. When the PKers are being aggressive you can't be looking for the perfect play, you just need to keep moving the puck until they slip up and they will because that's what always happens to an aggressive PK unit. At that point they either have to adjust and become more conservative playing into our cards or we just keep doing the same thing. They actually did some of this today and at least we were able to maintain zone time on our PPs, even if they were far from great.


Last edited by Tiranis: 04-16-2012 at 04:19 AM.
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04-16-2012, 04:11 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Apple to oranges much what?


The players on Boston were intent on beating us.

Thats all they cared about.

Kesler and Burrows do not look like they are concerned with beating the Kings as much as they do with trying to sell calls, looking to the ref for calls etc


Big difference.


So Boston wanted to beat their opposition more and therefore scored more? Are you saying player intent is the only thing that matters? I'm sure all the players intend on winning their given series... I think direction matters more. Kesler and Burrows start to do that kind of stuff when they no longer believe in the plan, in their direction. When they see that what they are doing is not working. It's frustration.



Apples to Oranges: Two different coaches, with totally different skillsets at their disposal. Boston also seems to have no problem scoring in the playoffs while the Canucks clearly do.

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04-16-2012, 04:12 AM
  #256
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Hoping a coach in the mold of Laviollete or Tortorella but unfortunately I don't see any

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04-16-2012, 04:13 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
So Boston wanted to beat their opposition more and therefore scored more? Are you saying player intent is the only thing that matters? I'm sure all the players intend on winning their given series... I think direction matters more. Kesler and Burrows start to do that kind of stuff when they no longer believe in the plan, in their direction. When they see that what they are doing is not working. It's frustration.



Apples to Oranges: Two different coaches, with totally different skillsets at their disposal. Boston also seems to have no problem scoring in the playoffs while the Canucks clearly do.
Well clearly Luongo still beleives in the plan. Hansen and Sedin do to it appears.

Quit making excuses for them.

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04-16-2012, 04:19 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Well clearly Luongo still beleives in the plan. Hansen and Sedin do to it appears.

Quit making excuses for them.


Excuses for Burrows and Kesler? I didn't realize I was. Of course they are partly to blame for this. When a PT team gets trounced in the first round, no player is safe from criticism.



But I'm putting the Lion's share of the blame on AV's massive noggin. It's him first, then the rest.

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04-16-2012, 04:41 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I would have to watch it again to tell you specifically, they weren't major adjustments but I do remember thinking at the time that there were definite shifts in how they were playing (mostly offensively and the way they moved the puck once they gained the zone). It's been too long to remember that kind of stuff, I don't paid to do this for a living after all.



I'm not sure at this point. I think we came into this series with the wrong mindset from Game 1.

We should've come in and played the left wing lock, because the Kings just don't have the speed or the PMD to break through effectively on a regular basis. That would've averted the utter disaster that was the first two periods of Game 1.

On the offensive end, we know that Quick is susceptible on high shots, tends to go down early, and is a bit overaggressive make him move side to side, try and get short back and forth passes going in the zone (even if it's with the D), focus on getting one-timers, stop trying to cycle behind the net as Quick's lateral movement is great and you're just not getting much done there. Having a guy crashing and just in general hanging around Quick's blocker side would help, as right now I see us clumping around his glove side the 2nd line has been especially bad at this as most of the rebounds end up on Quick's left side with no one there.

On the PP, just move the puck quickly and don't be stationary. The Kings tend to have two guys attack the puck carrier, you need to allow them to leave their position but not wait too long to move the puck, and keep moving it, with time the box would sufficiently fall apart and present opportunities. Our big problem on the PP was the fact that the Kings were certain we would 1) be stationary, and 2) would take a while to move the puck. When the PKers are being aggressive you can't be looking for the perfect play, you just need to keep moving the puck until they slip up and they will because that's what always happens to an aggressive PK unit. At that point they either have to adjust and become more conservative playing into our cards or we just keep doing the same thing.
Defense to me isnt the big issue. Weve made some tremendous mistakes (edler cough cough plus Malhotra) that no system would change.

Nevermind that MG wanted AV to employee more offense.

High shots sure. I doubt the nucks dont know this and I doubt AV is telling them to shoot low. But Im not in the dressing room.

Most of the these offense tactics are things the players again dont need a coach to tell them. Ive had these types of converstations plenty of times of the bench.

Not that I am disagreeing with what you have said but I see a big challenge in the talent we have to play certain types of games.

We dont have any real stand in front of the net guys except maybe Kassian. Kelser once did but doesnt seem to be so inclined.

The problem I have with one timers is we dont have those guys with quick releases AKA snipers.

The issue with the PP on the backend is for the most part its reliant on cannon shots from Edler and Salo. Neither are quick fleet of foot moving Dmen nor are our other dmen. Weve already seen the puck bobbling when they are trying to pass it around.

The nucks have been built around offense from teh cycle and thats getting easier and easier to figure out as the other teams catch on what to do and as the Sedins get slower.

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04-16-2012, 04:44 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Defense to me isnt the big issue. Weve made some tremendous mistakes (edler cough cough plus Malhotra) that no system would change.
Well, I'm not saying defense is an issue, but putting the Kings in a more aggressive role would've IMO lead to some excellent chances in the early game rather than the crap we saw. Right now it's too late because they feel comfortable to sit back but Game 1 when the Kings wanted to make a statement would've been the perfect time to employ a bit of a trap (left wing lock to be precise, but that's beside the point) — you either slow the game down or you get them being more aggressive and making mistakes.

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04-16-2012, 04:45 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Excuses for Burrows and Kesler? I didn't realize I was. Of course they are partly to blame for this. When a PT team gets trounced in the first round, no player is safe from criticism.



But I'm putting the Lion's share of the blame on AV's massive noggin. It's him first, then the rest.
Youre view of AV was clear in your post the other day. I appreciate you dont like him and thats fine.

Excuses is exactly what you are making.

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Kesler and Burrows start to do that kind of stuff when they no longer believe in the plan, in their direction. When they see that what they are doing is not working. It's frustration.

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04-16-2012, 04:55 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Well, I'm not saying defense is an issue, but putting the Kings in a more aggressive role would've IMO lead to some excellent chances in the early game rather than the crap we saw. Right now it's too late because they feel comfortable to sit back but Game 1 when the Kings wanted to make a statement would've been the perfect time to employ a bit of a trap (left wing lock to be precise, but that's beside the point).
I realize you werent saying the defense was an issue I probably wasnt clear.

My point is though that there are player errors that were significant. I dont see a system change pre or mid game changing that.

In fact I find it hard to beleive that Edler who has played this system since day one, has been with it to the finals last year is a vicitim of it more that hes been a victim of his own limitations. As Botchford said this time last year: "he still thinks like hes playing in a tier 2 beer league."

Like Kelser and Burrows focussing on the circus side show stuff, this is not new to us with Edler. Its been a yearly occurance.

There has to be questions regarding this team beyond coaching.

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04-16-2012, 04:55 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Defense to me isnt the big issue. Weve made some tremendous mistakes (edler cough cough plus Malhotra) that no system would change.

Nevermind that MG wanted AV to employee more offense.


AV's instituted a transition scheme that is really good at playing "over top" of the opposition. Long passes, more spacing just to get the opposition D moving backwards. The problem is when they actually achieve the offensive zone. Every line is left to the cycle. This is static, and easy to counter.



What's more, the players that are coveted for being fast and in transition, like Raymond, are abysmal at the cycle. I've long believed that these two strategies don't work well together.



Quote:
High shots sure. I doubt the nucks dont know this and I doubt AV is telling them to shoot low. But Im not in the dressing room.

Most of the these offense tactics are things the players again dont need a coach to tell them. Ive had these types of converstations plenty of times of the bench.

Not that I am disagreeing with what you have said but I see a big challenge in the talent we have to play certain types of games.

We dont have any real stand in front of the net guys except maybe Kassian. Kelser once did but doesnt seem to be so inclined.

The problem I have with one timers is we dont have those guys with quick releases AKA snipers.

The issue with the PP on the backend is for the most part its reliant on cannon shots from Edler and Salo. Neither are quick fleet of foot moving Dmen nor are our other dmen. Weve already seen the puck bobbling when they are trying to pass it around.

The nucks have been built around offense from teh cycle and thats getting easier and easier to figure out as the other teams catch on what to do and as the Sedins get slower.


I think we kind of agree. The system does not really fit every player on the team. Some are also just left to their own devices.



It's very different from say Detroit, where players run routes and button hooks in the offensive zone and passes are sent to a section of ice of where the player will be, instead of where he is. A faster team with good puck skills could do well with a system like that. The cycle just seems to fit only some players on the team, not all.

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04-16-2012, 05:02 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Youre view of AV was clear in your post the other day. I appreciate you dont like him and thats fine.

Excuses is exactly what you are making.


Hey if that came across as me absolving Kesler and Burrows of all wrong doing...?? :shrug: You're welcome to read into how you like. My intent was not do that. As players, they are part of a team on the verge of a monumental collapse. In that sense, none are above questioning.


Edit: I'm curious, would you give a damn about Kesler and Burrows being caught up in the circus if they were scoring goals?


---


I have learned not to like AV for his ineptitude as a coach.


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04-16-2012, 05:30 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
AV's instituted a transition scheme that is really good at playing "over top" of the opposition. Long passes, more spacing just to get the opposition D moving backwards. The problem is when they actually achieve the offensive zone. Every line is left to the cycle. This is static, and easy to counter.



What's more, the players that are coveted for being fast and in transition, like Raymond, are abysmal at the cycle. I've long believed that these two strategies don't work well together.







I think we kind of agree. The system does not really fit every player on the team. Some are also just left to their own devices.



It's very different from say Detroit, where players run routes and button hooks in the offensive zone and passes are sent to a section of ice of where the player will be, instead of where he is. A faster team with good puck skills could do well with a system like that. The cycle just seems to fit only some players on the team, not all.
It might very well be what MG was questioning when he not so deftly raised the issue whether the Sedins were the guys to build the team around.

Their cycle works well much of the time but once its shut down they are limited with what they can do. They arent going to speed around guys or power through them. Which means we rely on our 2nd line guys to do things a bit differently. Nothing wrong with that. But when your 2nd line guys are pretty one dimensional as well and your top 2nd liner/leader has a history of going it alone your are setting yourself up for failure.

For whatever reason detroit works well. If you look at their guys they all have specific roles and theres a lot of variation. Maybe that goes to Hakan Andersson.

They have the best front of the net guy, dman that wont go down, Mr Pro Dangles in Datsyuk who also happens to be tops in defense. Heck they made a role for a has been in Bertuzzi. To mention a few.

We are stuck with Raymond (dont get me started), hoping that Hodgson could some how fit into the 2nd line and the best to date AMEX line that again suffers from having guys who are sometimes working on their own and against each other for what ever reason.

Which is why we can ill afford to have the sideshow distractions of both Burrows and Kesler.

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04-16-2012, 05:36 AM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Hey if that came across as me absolving Kesler and Burrows of all wrong doing...?? :shrug: You're welcome to read into how you like. My intent was not do that. As players, they are part of a team on the verge of a monumental collapse. In that sense, none are above questioning.


Edit: I'm curious, would you give a damn about Kesler and Burrows being caught up in the circus if they were scoring goals?


---


I have learned not to like AV for his ineptitude as a coach.
To answer your edit yes.

Its one thing to have a guy like Lapierre doing it. Hes a 4th liner and thats all thats expected.

Again its not something new. It was raised with them a couple of years ago and weve seen it several times in their time here. They get off their game and focus on acting like clowns. THese are not two raw rookies finding their way. Veterans who also went to the finals last year.

None are above questioning bar maybe a few. But these two guys are supposed to be leaders of this team. They aint acting like it.

And again when you say Kesler and Burrows are doing that because XYZ, that is making excuses for them.

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04-16-2012, 05:50 AM
  #267
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To answer your edit yes.

Its one thing to have a guy like Lapierre doing it. Hes a 4th liner and thats all thats expected.

Again its not something new. It was raised with them a couple of years ago and weve seen it several times in their time here. They get off their game and focus on acting like clowns. THese are not two raw rookies finding their way. Veterans who also went to the finals last year.

None are above questioning bar maybe a few. But these two guys are supposed to be leaders of this team. They aint acting like it.

And again when you say Kesler and Burrows are doing that because XYZ, that is making excuses for them.



It's not an excuse, it's a reason. Like I said, I'm not condoning their clowning around, just providing insight as to why I think it's happening.


So from your above two posts, do I understand things correctly when it seems you are an advocate to replace the core of this team?

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04-16-2012, 06:21 AM
  #268
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It's not an excuse, it's a reason. Like I said, I'm not condoning their clowning around, just providing insight as to why I think it's happening.


So from your above two posts, do I understand things correctly when it seems you are an advocate to replace the core of this team?
Nope not advocating a full atomic smash blow up of this team. Although who knows maybe that's what it takes. But it would be near impossible to do that.

I haven't put much thought in potential trades etc beyond the usual (Schneider etc).

However a deeper look needs to happen beyond just the surface stuff such as a coaching change.

From my standpoint the sedins will definitely stay regardless of NTC/NMC and I could easily see them finishing out their careers here even as another contract as 2nd liners. Health permitting etc of course.

We have however had an ongoing seemingly never ending search for line mates for Kesler plus a never ending turnstile of 4th liners.

I think it's a fair question to ask if this team could be made better by looking at options, if there is any. Dudes nearly 30 and the same bad issues have reared their ugly head regardless of the reasons (coach/hip/childhood etc etc)

Kesler is a great player when he wants to be and to me it's more mental than anything. He ends up hurting the team more when he engages in peripheral ****. We've all seen how good and how bad he can be.

Burrows tends to get more of a free pass because he's cap friendly.

Maybe the team is too friendly. I'd certainly be saying something to them.

I've experienced something similar when I played with some extremely talented guys on one of my Jr A Lacrosse teams. Ended up with a terrible record that year and a lot of it was due to peripheral BS. We had a coach who was the polar opposite of of what AV is. More like a Tortorella personality though less likable.

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04-16-2012, 07:32 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Nope not advocating a full atomic smash blow up of this team. Although who knows maybe that's what it takes. But it would be near impossible to do that.

I haven't put much thought in potential trades etc beyond the usual (Schneider etc).

However a deeper look needs to happen beyond just the surface stuff such as a coaching change.

Changing a coach is anything but a surface level move. I think we disagree on the impact a change would bring.






Edit: Chapman on the TEAM1040 seems to echo the problems with the coaching.


Quote:
From my standpoint the sedins will definitely stay regardless of NTC/NMC and I could easily see them finishing out their careers here even as another contract as 2nd liners. Health permitting etc of course.

We have however had an ongoing seemingly never ending search for line mates for Kesler plus a never ending turnstile of 4th liners.

I think it's a fair question to ask if this team could be made better by looking at options, if there is any. Dudes nearly 30 and the same bad issues have reared their ugly head regardless of the reasons (coach/hip/childhood etc etc)

Kesler is a great player when he wants to be and to me it's more mental than anything. He ends up hurting the team more when he engages in peripheral ****. We've all seen how good and how bad he can be.

Burrows tends to get more of a free pass because he's cap friendly.

Maybe the team is too friendly. I'd certainly be saying something to them.

I've experienced something similar when I played with some extremely talented guys on one of my Jr A Lacrosse teams. Ended up with a terrible record that year and a lot of it was due to peripheral BS. We had a coach who was the polar opposite of of what AV is. More like a Tortorella personality though less likable.


It's just such a tough position to be in for MG. This team went to the SCF last year and then is likely going to bow out in the first round this year. What's the true level of the team?


Kesler won't be moved IMO. That contract is just too strong a bargain to have him be moved, unless it's for futures that can play in the short-term. I'll leave that to the armchair thread.


Both years, however, AV has struggled to adjust to the playoffs. The top players have struggled in the playoffs. What you can do in the immediate is replace the coach. Then slowly look into moving players. Again, difficult position to be in for MG.


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04-16-2012, 09:23 AM
  #270
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Ferraro ripping chappy a new one. Lol

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04-16-2012, 09:35 AM
  #271
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Ferraro ripping chappy a new one. Lol


Ferraro is minimizing a coach's impact on the game played _today_. I wouldn't expect anything less from someone so arrogant and bullheaded.



Also interesting, he's not refuting the Chapman's point about "So many things going wrong that it's coaching," he never once addressed the point. Instead, he prefers to talk over Chapman, saying "these are the same guys on the team when the PP was running hot"? Then why is it not running hot now Ray = no answer.


No credence given to adjustments made throughout the season by opposing coaches.



I kind of enjoyed when Chapman prefaced his argument with "Ray, I didn't play hockey in the NHL like you did, but"... subtly insinuating that that is the reason Ferraro feels righteous in his stance against Chapman's assessment, not in the actual logic of his argument. Handled it well IMO.


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04-16-2012, 09:46 AM
  #272
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Changing a coach is anything but a surface level move. I think we disagree on the impact a change would bring.






Edit: Chapman on the TEAM1040 seems to echo the problems with the coaching.






It's just such a tough position to be in for MG. This team went to the SCF last year and then is likely going to bow out in the first round this year. What's the true level of the team?


Kesler won't be moved IMO. That contract is just too strong a bargain to have him be moved, unless it's for futures that can play in the short-term. I'll leave that to the armchair thread.


Both years, however, AV has struggled to adjust to the playoffs. The top players have struggled in the playoffs. What you can do in the immediate is replace the coach. Then slowly look into moving players. Again, difficult position to be in for MG.
Not just the last two years, don't forget both debacles against Chicago the previous two years. Outcoached by friggin Quenville.

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04-16-2012, 09:48 AM
  #273
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If you listen to what AV is saying, he's saying he's happy with effort and that we're doing the right things, following the process, etc. If the players weren't doing what he wants them to then we would hear about it — we have in the past. If that's not a sign that the coach is not asking the right things of the team then I don't know what is.

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04-16-2012, 09:51 AM
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post
Hoping a coach in the mold of Laviollete or Tortorella but unfortunately I don't see any
Craig Berube is in that mode if want him as your coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Ferraro is minimizing a coach's impact on the game played _today_. I wouldn't expect anything less from someone so arrogant and bullheaded.

Also interesting, he's not refuting the Chapman's point about "So many things going wrong that it's coaching," he never once addressed the point. Instead, he prefers to talk over Chapman, saying "these are the same guys on the team when the PP was running hot"? Then why is it not running hot now Ray = no answer.

No credence given to adjustments made throughout the season by opposing coaches.

I kind of enjoyed when Chapman prefaced his argument with "Ray, I didn't play hockey in the NHL like you did, but"... subtly insinuating that that is the reason Ferraro feels righteous in his stance against Chapman's assessment, not in the actual logic of his argument. Handled it well IMO.
Coaching is huge and to minimize it is just plain ignorant. Look at what Sutter and Maclean have done for their perspective teams.

As for looking for a new coach you'd probably start with Mac T then I would look at Detroit assistants. They seem to pump out decent amount of head coaches around the league.

Who are the upcoming coaches in AHL or NHL assistants?

NucksOnly is offline  
Old
04-16-2012, 09:54 AM
  #275
LolClarkson*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Ferraro is minimizing a coach's impact on the game played _today_. I wouldn't expect anything less from someone so arrogant and bullheaded.



Also interesting, he's not refuting the Chapman's point about "So many things going wrong that it's coaching," he never once addressed the point. Instead, he prefers to talk over Chapman, saying "these are the same guys on the team when the PP was running hot"? Then why is it not running hot now Ray = no answer.


No credence given to adjustments made throughout the season by opposing coaches.



I kind of enjoyed when Chapman prefaced his argument with "Ray, I didn't play hockey in the NHL like you did, but"... subtly insinuating that that is the reason Ferraro feels righteous in his stance against Chapman's assessment, not in the actual logic of his argument. Handled it well IMO.
Ferraro was right. He also took a jab at the Kassian trade.

LolClarkson* is offline  
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