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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 2

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Old
04-16-2012, 09:57 AM
  #276
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by NucksOnly View Post
Coaching is huge and to minimize it is just plain ignorant. Look at what Sutter and Maclean have done for their perspective teams.

Yup. Clearly those guys were just "cosmetic" changes.

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04-16-2012, 09:59 AM
  #277
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Coaching is huge and to minimize it is just plain ignorant. Look at what Sutter and Maclean have done for their perspective teams.

As for looking for a new coach you'd probably start with Mac T then I would look at Detroit assistants. They seem to pump out decent amount of head coaches around the league.

Who are the upcoming coaches in AHL or NHL assistants?
Lard_Lad mentioned an interesting candidate and IMO he seems like a good option for the head coach gig.


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There's an interesting guy named Jon Cooper that was just named AHL coach of the year. Unusual resume, from Prince George originally, played junior at Notre Dame in Saskatchewan, then Division III US college hockey. Became a lawyer, but stayed around hockey and wound up as coach/GM of the St. Louis NAHL team, had a great record there and then moved on to Green Bay in the USHL, and then Steve Yzerman grabbed him to run Tampa's AHL team two years ago. This year, they were the AHL regular season champions by a huge margin, 14 points up on second place. 28 (!) consecutive wins to end the season.

He's only 44, and probably the least-experienced serious candidate out there. But he's demonstrated pretty emphatically that he can coach in the pros, and is a pretty big departure from the usual retread choices. If we change coaches, I hope Gillis gives him some consideration, assuming Yzerman lets us talk to him.
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Here's a little profile on him: http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ng-jon-cooper/

I would hope he at least gets an interview to see where his head is at. Obviously a risk but sounds interesting.

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04-16-2012, 10:01 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Ferraro was right. He also took a jab at the Kassian trade.

Ferraro was being close minded and dismissive. He didn't actually answer Chapman's query. If so many things are going wrong at once, that's a coaching thing isn't it? Yet, Ferraro didn't address that point. Instead, he made it seem like the coach is helpless and that it is mostly up to the players.


Yup, totally, I mean sure, that's why the players were still trying stupid drop passes in game 2 _and_then_ AV decided to making adjustments __after__ that game right? Yeah, no coaching faux pas there. Let's wait a couple of playoff games, see what happens. He couldn't have actually made adjustments in January could he?


Ferraro is an idiot with people that disagree with him.

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04-16-2012, 10:03 AM
  #279
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Lard_Lad mentioned an interesting candidate and IMO he seems like a good option for the head coach gig.
Sounds like an interesting candidate. I would like Gillis to take a look at him. You'd think Edmonton or Montreal would take a look at him. Actually forget Montreal they would want some bilingual.

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04-16-2012, 10:12 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Ferraro was being close minded and dismissive. He didn't actually answer Chapman's query. If so many things are going wrong at once, that's a coaching thing isn't it? Yet, Ferraro didn't address that point.

Instead, he made it seem like the coach is helpless and that it is mostly up to the players.

.
I think he was taking a jab at Mike Gillis but he didn't want to be too obvious. AV doesn't have the players he needs and its party Duncan Kieths fault.

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04-16-2012, 10:17 AM
  #281
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I think he was taking a jab at Mike Gillis but he didn't want to be too obvious. AV doesn't have the players he needs and its party Duncan Kieths fault.

I don't think so at all. Specifically because Ferraro said that "these same players contributed to a red hot PP earlier in the year". Meaning, the talent is already here, but the talent isn't executing right now. But Chapman is saying the execution is missing due to poor coaching adjustments.

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04-16-2012, 10:23 AM
  #282
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I don't think so at all. Specifically because Ferraro said that "these same players contributed to a red hot PP earlier in the year". Meaning, the talent is already here, but the talent isn't executing right now. But Chapman is saying the execution is missing due to poor coaching adjustments.
He meant earlier in the year, meaning no Kassian and no Pahlsson

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04-16-2012, 10:24 AM
  #283
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I think Av will be coaching the Habs and Cunneyworth will be coaching the 'Nucks in a weird twist of fate.

Best news is AV takes Yappy with him to Montreal.

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04-16-2012, 10:43 AM
  #284
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Oil fan coming in peace as I cheer for the Nucks with my family during the playoffs.

IMO, AV is not the problem; I think he's a great coach? His system has given structure to all of your lines. It's rare when a third line can dominate a team's first line down low in their zone and this seemed to always happen during the regular season.

I believe that the issue lies with players that overachieved due to his system and are now coming back to reality. Higgins scores more goals this year than he had in the previous 5 years. He's a an 8 year yet; he didn't just wake up with skill.

I love how all 3/4 lines seem to play the same way and would love to have this type of system in Edmonton. Your guys' breakouts and zone entries are a thing of beauty. The angle dump, The slap pass high slot tip

IMO it's a player thing and without AV the team would've fallen apart much earlier? I would keep this guy in a heartbeat.

Trading Cody away, though? You don't give away premium talent just to get bigger. If anything, it's the GMs fault. It's just the case of players coming back to reality from overachieving.

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04-16-2012, 10:51 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by CrazyJoeDavola View Post
Oil fan coming in peace as I cheer for the Nucks with my family during the playoffs.

IMO, AV is not the problem; I think he's a great coach? His system has given structure to all of your lines. It's rare when a third line can dominate a team's first line down low in their zone and this seemed to always happen during the regular season.

I believe that the issue lies with players that overachieved due to his system and are now coming back to reality. Higgins scores more goals this year than he had in the previous 5 years. He's a an 8 year yet; he didn't just wake up with skill.

I love how all 3/4 lines seem to play the same way and would love to have this type of system in Edmonton. Your guys' breakouts and zone entries are a thing of beauty. The angle dump, The slap pass high slot tip

IMO it's a player thing and without AV the team would've fallen apart much earlier? I would keep this guy in a heartbeat.

Trading Cody away, though? You don't give away premium talent just to get bigger. If anything, it's the GMs fault. It's just the case of players coming back to reality from overachieving.
I appreciate what you are saying but you are wrong. He is entirely the problem as his philosophy is score 1 goal then defend defend defend.

This series has everything to do with the Kings being able to take advantage of some good breas, undiscuplined play by the Canucks, and the puck just landing on their sticks at opportune times.

I have never seen Hamhuis blow his tires multiple times like he has. I have never seen Alex Edler play so pathetic and worthless in his entire time. Last night in the 3rd with less than 3 to play he finally laid out a big hit... well what good does it do at that point?

The Kings also caught a Canucks team looking to the Finals instead of looking what was right at them.

No you are wrong. AV is completely the problem, has been for 3 years. The team has won inspite of him, not because of him. What's further, they will be back next year with a vengence.

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04-16-2012, 10:55 AM
  #286
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IMO it's a player thing and without AV the team would've fallen apart much earlier? I would keep this guy in a heartbeat.
I agree with this. AV has gotten this collection of players, with this style, further for longer than they deserved to go.

I would rather see AV build a new team, than see this core with a new coach.

 
Old
04-16-2012, 10:57 AM
  #287
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I would like to keep AV. I do however think Brown and Bowness have to go. Get AV a good Xs and Os guy and another good PP specialist.

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04-16-2012, 10:59 AM
  #288
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If like to keep AV. I do however think Brown and Bowness have to go. Get AV a good Xs and Os guy and another good PP specialist.
I agree with Brown's position being put into question, but I think Bowness is a good coach. Defense has never been the issue.

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04-16-2012, 11:01 AM
  #289
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I appreciate what you are saying but you are wrong. He is entirely the problem as his philosophy is score 1 goal then defend defend defend.

This series has everything to do with the Kings being able to take advantage of some good breas, undiscuplined play by the Canucks, and the puck just landing on their sticks at opportune times.

I have never seen Hamhuis blow his tires multiple times like he has. I have never seen Alex Edler play so pathetic and worthless in his entire time. Last night in the 3rd with less than 3 to play he finally laid out a big hit... well what good does it do at that point?

The Kings also caught a Canucks team looking to the Finals instead of looking what was right at them.

No you are wrong. AV is completely the problem, has been for 3 years. The team has won inspite of him, not because of him. What's further, they will be back next year with a vengence.
You mean the philosophy we are getting beat with right now.

AV is gone after this season, it sucks, the Canucks under Vigneault has been their best stretch in their entire history.

I love when people write things like "we win inspite of him" its such a crock or crap.

It is purely a personnel issue and this has nothing to do with Cody Hodgson...sick of that crap too, yeah our Selke, Hart and shutdown center can't handle Brown and Kopitar in our end, but little Cody Hodgson would have changed everything....right.

The Canucks lack true elite finishing ability. that is their main problem. I cannot recall one single save that Quick has made so far in this series that 'wowed' me and had me thinking he saved a sure goal.

All that said, you have to win 4 to win a series, it isn't over yet. But I will say, I cannot see another coach taking this exact roster any further than AV took us last year.

THe 'whistle to whistle' philosophy does not work in the NHL, that mantra came from the top of the organization...you can't tell me a blue collar coach like AV doesn't want to see Kassian or anyone else do what Carkner or Neil are doing in the Rangers series.

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04-16-2012, 11:02 AM
  #290
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unless the canucks push this series to 7 games i'd bet the farm on gillis looking for another head coach this offseason

the entire team just looks stale and void of any offensive imagination whatsoever...the special teams are atrocious, scoring in general has dried up, adjustments aren't made quick enough, the team doesn't stand up for each other partly because vigneault promotes a dispassionate atmosphere, young players don't develop...there's no shortage of reasons to fire vigneault and the entire staff

vigneault is a good coach and he'll find work elsewhere about as quickly as bruce boudreau and randy carlyle did, but he's no longer the right coach for this team and for an aging core who's window for success is closing more rapidly than most realize gillis has to pull the trigger now

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04-16-2012, 11:15 AM
  #291
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I agree with Brown's position being put into question, but I think Bowness is a good coach. Defense has never been the issue.
Yeah lets blame Newell Brown (just like Ryan Walter) because we cant pick a corner.

Last year this fan base was ready to annoint the guy some sort of PP genius, now that the well has dried up and the 'personnel' can't execute, we blame the coaches.

I love this fan base....the guys who score 4 goals in 3 games, while generating almost no true scoring chances get a free pass, but the coaching staff and goalies are always to blame.

Another rant - If Luongo pops that juicy rebound to Brown last night he gets crucified in this city, Schneider gets a free pass for it...its annoying.

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04-16-2012, 11:18 AM
  #292
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I agree with Brown's position being put into question, but I think Bowness is a good coach. Defense has never been the issue.
Defense has never been the issue? Are you serious? Have you seen some of the defensive lapses that have gone on? Defense is a nightmare for this team.

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04-16-2012, 11:22 AM
  #293
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the coaches can't score, the coaches can't be responsible for bad defending. They have tried different things on the powerplay. It's ultimately up the the players not performing like they should.

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04-16-2012, 11:25 AM
  #294
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Yeah lets blame Newell Brown (just like Ryan Walter) because we cant pick a corner.

Last year this fan base was ready to annoint the guy some sort of PP genius, now that the well has dried up and the 'personnel' can't execute, we blame the coaches.

I love this fan base....the guys who score 4 goals in 3 games, while generating almost no true scoring chances get a free pass, but the coaching staff and goalies are always to blame.

Another rant - If Luongo pops that juicy rebound to Brown last night he gets crucified in this city, Schneider gets a free pass for it...its annoying.


Another goaltending expert with a Luongo fetish. How odd and completely unexpected.

Just an FYI, goalies can't control every rebound, if they could there would be no rebound goals.

But since this is the Alain Vigneault thread I'll digress.

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04-16-2012, 11:30 AM
  #295
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the coaches can't score, the coaches can't be responsible for bad defending. They have tried different things on the powerplay. It's ultimately up the the players not performing like they should.
Well....i guess its simple then....Fire the players!

Coaches, if you aren't aware, come up with the gameplan, the players are supposed to execute. The coaches didn't seem to unhappy with gameplan, just the execution. But if the gameplan is to take lots of shots from the outside and not work any of the play directly in front of the net then I'd say its the gameplan thats flawed. It's hard to expect to beat Quick with unobstructed shots from the outside.

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04-16-2012, 11:30 AM
  #296
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Another goaltending expert with a Luongo fetish. How odd and completely unexpected.

Just an FYI, goalies can't control every rebound, if they could there would be no rebound goals.

But since this is the Alain Vigneault thread I'll digress.
Calling it a fettish is just ignorant. It is exactly what would have happened. Its the truth, and I like both of our goalies.

Im actually in the keep Schneider camp....just feel that RL is mistreated in this city and Province. When he's gone we will do the same thing to the next guy.

Like you said, its the AV thread so I'll digress too...

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04-16-2012, 11:31 AM
  #297
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I agree with Brown's position being put into question, but I think Bowness is a good coach. Defense has never been the issue.
Our defense hasn't been good enough either for much of this season. Not last game, but the other 2 games, the defense was atrocious (team defense). The end of the regular season, we were regularly giving up awful goals based on terrible defensive positioning (think the Stars game where Lu got pulled).

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04-16-2012, 11:34 AM
  #298
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But I will say, I cannot see another coach taking this exact roster any further than AV took us last year.
Completely agree. This core is past prime, plain and simple. We had our shot - and what a glorious run it was - but it's over, done, finished.

We can either do the WCE decline, or accept the rebuild while the pieces still have value.

I also agree with the other poster that if the goal-generating rebound had been Luongo's, the guy would have been crucified on this board.

 
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04-16-2012, 11:35 AM
  #299
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My biggest complaint is the lasting damage AV's influence on player personnel decisions has done to this team.

He unequivocably took a defensively responsible approach first to forward retention, and assigned nowhere near enough value to offensive skill and creativity. He didn't realize that being defensively responsible while necessary, isn't sufficient to win. As they say, you can teach a gifted player to be defensively responsible (ex. Sean Couturier) but you can't impart talent to skill challenged players.

As we now know, AV is not a teacher, players have to be NHL ready defensively when they get to him or they'll be sent right back with little chance of ever being called up again - we saw just that with Shirokov.

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04-16-2012, 11:40 AM
  #300
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My biggest complaint is the lasting damage AV's influence on player personnel decisions has done to this team.

He unequivocably took a defensively responsible approach first to forward retention, and assigned nowhere near enough value to offensive skill and creativity. He didn't realize that being defensively responsible while necessary, isn't sufficient to win. As they say, you can teach a gifted player to be defensively responsible (ex. Sean Couturier) but you can't impart talent to skill challenged players.

As we now know, AV is not a teacher, players have to be NHL ready defensively when they get to him or they'll be sent right back with little chance of ever being called up again - we saw just that with Shirokov.
You really think Laviolette taught Couturier his defensive game?

I get your gist, but Couturier has been an excellent defensive player at every level of hockey. That is why Laviolette has used him as his #1 PK forward from game 1 this season...he has an extremely polished defensive game for a 19 year old.

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