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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part 11

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Old
04-16-2012, 02:11 PM
  #751
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Kid's still a thrower, but he has shown signs that he can use his stuff to get through lineups multiple times. I think the walks will clean up as he builds endurance and masters his mechanics. This is two starts in a row where he got through 5 looking great, 6 tonight, and then implodes. I think stamina is playing a big role in his end of game wildness right now. I think that ought to get better.

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04-16-2012, 02:13 PM
  #752
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Since when is 4 inches off the plate not considered "close enough" with 2 strikes in the count?

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04-16-2012, 02:18 PM
  #753
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As a hitter, with 2 strikes and the game on the line, you have to swing at borderline strikes just to protect the plate. There's no excuse to go down looking. Even if the pitch was a ball, it was called a strike before. Ross needs to let it fly and he didn't.
same cody ross that hit two homers this weekend? MLB batters know what to swing at.

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04-16-2012, 02:20 PM
  #754
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Since when is 4 inches off the plate not considered "close enough" with 2 strikes in the count?
Eh, the more hitters adapt to that old silly baseball cliche of gotta protect, the less likely we are of ever seeing robot umpires.

Always hated that mindset as a hitter and to be perfectly honest, not doing so helped me out way more than it hurt in the long run.

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04-16-2012, 02:41 PM
  #755
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Yes. It makes sense baseball wise, but it frustrates the hell out of me when the batter just keeps the bat on his shoulder. Shields gave him a great pitch to drive and he does nothing with it.
I'm with you. That's on the hitter, not Valentine.

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Is it too early to fire Bobby V yet? I hate him. I LOATHE him.
So, you liked the 2-10 start last year better than 4-6?

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04-16-2012, 02:51 PM
  #756
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same cody ross that hit two homers this weekend? MLB batters know what to swing at.
Yes, the same guy who hit his first two HR's of the season this past weekend. Just because he had 2 good games over the weekend doesn't mean he didn't make an error in today's game.

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04-16-2012, 03:03 PM
  #757
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Not swinging at an obvious ball wasn't one of those errors.

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04-16-2012, 03:05 PM
  #758
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Not swinging at an obvious ball wasn't one of those errors.
It is if the ump called a similar ball a strike moments before. Oh wait, that's exactly what happened.

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04-16-2012, 03:05 PM
  #759
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Yes, the same guy who hit his first two HR's of the season this past weekend. Just because he had 2 good games over the weekend doesn't mean he didn't make an error in today's game.
And that error was not swinging at a ball a foot off the plate?

Here's Ross' quote and I completely agree with him, despite not being a Red Sox fan at all.

ďWeíve been playing this game for so long, that you recognize pitches early and you see them out of the hand and you say thatís a ball and then it crosses wherever and itís called a strike,Ē he said. ďIíve taught myself over the years to take those pitches, and not expand my strike zone. Make him make a mistake. He didnít make a mistake. As soon as it comes out of his hand, Iím in shutdown mound, saying no, thatís a ball. Then itís a strike. Next one - ball. No, strike. What are you going to do? Move on and go get them tomorrow.Ē

He's probably seen thousands of pitches in that location and maybe 2% of them have been called strikes. You can't let cliches override muscle memory.

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04-16-2012, 03:08 PM
  #760
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It is if the ump called a similar ball a strike moments before. Oh wait, that's exactly what happened.
So you're assuming that an umpire can't make a split second mistake?

Honestly, as a hitter, in that particular pitch location, you're better off hoping the umpire missed one, knows it, and is going to correct than you ever are of swinging at that pitch. You take your bat off your shoulder with the pitch that far outside, you're cooked.

Nevermind the fact that if you start expanding for one umpire in one situation, you'll do so for others. Bad process. Vanover did a terrible job there, and sometimes as a hitter there's nothing you can do about it.

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04-16-2012, 03:08 PM
  #761
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And that error was not swinging at a ball a foot off the plate?

Here's Ross' quote and I completely agree with him, despite not being a Red Sox fan at all.

ďWeíve been playing this game for so long, that you recognize pitches early and you see them out of the hand and you say thatís a ball and then it crosses wherever and itís called a strike,Ē he said. ďIíve taught myself over the years to take those pitches, and not expand my strike zone. Make him make a mistake. He didnít make a mistake. As soon as it comes out of his hand, Iím in shutdown mound, saying no, thatís a ball. Then itís a strike. Next one - ball. No, strike. What are you going to do? Move on and go get them tomorrow.Ē

He's probably seen thousands of pitches in that location and maybe 2% of them have been called strikes. You can't let cliches override muscle memory.
And one was called a strike moments before the one that ended the game. Sure, he's right that it wasn't a strike, but it was called a strike twice in that at bat. Call it a cliche if you like, but a hitter needs to realize what's being called what, and adjust. He didn't adjust, so it's game over.

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04-16-2012, 03:11 PM
  #762
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So you're assuming that an umpire can't make a split second mistake?

Honestly, as a hitter, in that particular pitch location, you're better off hoping the umpire missed one, knows it, and is going to correct than you ever are of swinging at that pitch. You take your bat off your shoulder with the pitch that far outside, you're cooked.

Nevermind the fact that if you start expanding for one umpire in one situation, you'll do so for others. Bad process. Vanover did a terrible job there, and sometimes as a hitter there's nothing you can do about it.
Of course not. At no point did I say the ump was right. As a matter of fact, I've said multiple times he was wrong. That being said though, Ross watched it called like that earlier in the at bat, and then when the same pitch came he watched it called again. Agree or disagree, but I think a hitter needs to adjust in that scenario. The game was on the line. He watched a called strike three on the same pitch that was called a strike right before. It doesn't take a genius to see where that was headed.

Players adjust game to game based on who's behind the plate, as well at bat to at bat. It's why hitters get steamed a lot at calls. If you call a low or wide pitch from the start, you better call it that way consistently for both sides for the whole game.

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04-16-2012, 03:13 PM
  #763
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And one was called a strike moments before the one that ended the game. Sure, he's right that it wasn't a strike, but it was called a strike twice in that at bat. Call it a cliche if you like, but a hitter needs to realize what's being called what, and adjust. He didn't adjust, so it's game over.
He shouldn't have adjusted. If a hitter expands his strike zone, he gets overanxious and puts himself out.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that hitting is an act of conscious decision. It's a matter of well trained reflexes -- which is why I suck at it, by the way.

Your argument amounts to having a goal disallowed on an obvious blown call, not enough evidence to overturn even though you can see white behind the puck, and some drunk yahoo is saying he should have beat the goalie more cleanly. Sure, it's a technically correct answer, but in practical terms it's bloody useless.

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04-16-2012, 03:14 PM
  #764
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Of course not. At no point did I say the ump was right. As a matter of fact, I've said multiple times he was wrong. That being said though, Ross watched it called like that earlier in the at bat, and then when the same pitch came he watched it called again. Agree or disagree, but I think a hitter needs to adjust in that scenario. The game was on the line. He watched a called strike three on the same pitch that was called a strike right before. It doesn't take a genius to see where that was headed.
Adjust to what though? At MLB velocity, that's an unhittable pitch. There's a reason it's a ball. If it were hittable, the strike zone would reflect that. Once Vanover expanded the zone that far out, beyond a one pitch mistake, Ross was done. He doesn't swing it's a K, He swings, it's a K.

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04-16-2012, 03:18 PM
  #765
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I'm with you. That's on the hitter, not Valentine.



So, you liked the 2-10 start last year better than 4-6?
Nope, I just hate the fact we have a condescending ******* as a coach. And he has already showed multiple times that he has no clue on when to take pitchers out of the game.

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04-16-2012, 04:09 PM
  #766
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Despite what the ballwashers might spew, did you ever hear Francona when he was asked a challenging question? He could be quite condescending as well. I couldn't care less about that crap.

As for handling a pitching staff, don't you think there's some growing pains with a new manager? He doesn't know the staff and more specifically today, he doesn't know Bard as a starter. Or perhaps he simply didn't trust his bullpen. We're 10 games into the season. Call me crazy, but I'm gonna give Valentine some more time.

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04-16-2012, 04:15 PM
  #767
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Condescending is fine. Contradictory, vascilating, and insincere isn't.

At his worst, Tito was still as good as his word.

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04-16-2012, 04:46 PM
  #768
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Fair enough. Up until things actually blow up, I only care about them winning games. And despite 4-6 being nothing to write home about...it could be a lot worse. After listening to the entire question/response, it really wasn't all that bad. It's just something these players aren't used to. If they go out and win games, we'll be hearing about how the players have bought into Bobby V. It's all about winning.

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04-17-2012, 10:06 AM
  #769
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Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
So you're assuming that an umpire can't make a split second mistake?

Honestly, as a hitter, in that particular pitch location, you're better off hoping the umpire missed one, knows it, and is going to correct than you ever are of swinging at that pitch. You take your bat off your shoulder with the pitch that far outside, you're cooked.

Nevermind the fact that if you start expanding for one umpire in one situation, you'll do so for others. Bad process. Vanover did a terrible job there, and sometimes as a hitter there's nothing you can do about it.
Vanover was consistant, not perfect. Remember he's human also. That pitch was called a strike consistantly. What do you always hear about umpires? Be consistant. Ross stood there and took all 5 pitches. If your Rodney and the umpire is giving you an inch past the black where are you going to go? Down the middle? I don't think so. Ross was looking for a walk like usual and got burned.

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04-17-2012, 10:13 AM
  #770
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Vanover was consistant, not perfect. Remember he's human also. That pitch was called a strike consistantly. What do you always hear about umpires? Be consistant. Ross stood there and took all 5 pitches. If your Rodney and the umpire is giving you an inch past the black where are you going to go? Down the middle? I don't think so. Ross was looking for a walk like usual and got burned.
I think the consistency with umpires thing is crap, if you call the strike zone consistently wrong, all it means is you're very consistent at being bad. The width of the strike zone NEVER changes, and the umpire is stationary. I can see an inch or two here, an inch or two there. That's fine. Those balls were a foot off the plate.

And my point wasn't so much as to lay into Vanover. It was more to stem the criticism of Ross. Only one of those pitches was an inch off the plate. The other 4 were a foot. We have the technology to quantify these things now. Ross was looking for a walk, because he should have walked.

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04-17-2012, 10:18 AM
  #772
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Are we all set for the Bobby Valentine Show on Thursday? I think I will start vomiting now and avoid the rush.
Hopefully it wasn't because you consumed one of his famous wraps...

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04-17-2012, 10:19 AM
  #773
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I think the consistency with umpires thing is crap, if you call the strike zone consistently wrong, all it means is you're very consistent at being bad. The width of the strike zone NEVER changes, and the umpire is stationary. I can see an inch or two here, an inch or two there. That's fine. Those balls were a foot off the plate.

And my point wasn't so much as to lay into Vanover. It was more to stem the criticism of Ross. Only one of those pitches was an inch off the plate. The other 4 were a foot. We have the technology to quantify these things now. Ross was looking for a walk, because he should have walked.
Congrats to Ross for holding strong in his convictions and not swinging at a ball that was consistently called a strike. One question though, how'd that work out for the team?

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04-17-2012, 10:19 AM
  #774
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Congrats to Ross for holding strong in his convictions and not swinging. One question though, how'd that work out for the team?
The same way it would have worked out if he swung.

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04-17-2012, 10:21 AM
  #775
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Congrats to Ross for holding strong in his convictions and not swinging at a ball that was consistently called a strike. One question though, how'd that work out for the team?
The other thing I'm curious about, because I only watched that one AB, if Vanover truly was calling THAT wide of a strike zone consistently yesterday....how the hell did Bard walk 7 guys?

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