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Jim Robson Divisional Quarterfinals: Toronto vs. Vancouver

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Old
04-10-2012, 02:17 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Sturm you've read more than I have so maybe Boucher was better, but as far as what I've seen Cook has the edge on him.
I think they were basically equals - two great forwards who complemented one another perfectly. In a vacuum, I would always draft Cook first in the ATD because he is a physical winger and that is a harder role to fill, but in terms of what they brought to the ice and where they should fall on an all-time list, they are very close in terms of overall value. It is absolutely not the case that Cook carried the Bread Line.

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04-10-2012, 10:30 PM
  #27
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m_b, here is a Gord Roberts bio if you don't know anything about him:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=606

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I think we, as a group, know a lot more than the THN staff who ranked Schmidt over Boucher in 1998
Thank you for saying this. I couldn't agree more.

During LCATD1 I was also working on the 2008 HOH top-100 project. It finished just in time for the playoffs and I used a lot of these rankings as arguments (our ATDs were still in their infancy, and in an imbalanced draft like this it is important if I have 8 top-100 players and my finals opponent has just 6, that is a massive difference. But it was mostly blown off as revisionist, stats-based crap and treated with a general "who do you think you are, acting like you know more than the THN panel!!!" attitude. Nearly 4 years later, having been a part of many more drafts and refining my methods of evaluation along with everyone else, I can easily say that history has absolved our list.

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Old
04-11-2012, 04:12 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Thank you for saying this. I couldn't agree more.

During LCATD1 I was also working on the 2008 HOH top-100 project. It finished just in time for the playoffs and I used a lot of these rankings as arguments (our ATDs were still in their infancy, and in an imbalanced draft like this it is important if I have 8 top-100 players and my finals opponent has just 6, that is a massive difference. But it was mostly blown off as revisionist, stats-based crap and treated with a general "who do you think you are, acting like you know more than the THN panel!!!" attitude. Nearly 4 years later, having been a part of many more drafts and refining my methods of evaluation along with everyone else, I can easily say that history has absolved our list.
Yeah, we really need to stop paying attention to "latter day canon" like that THN list. I can say with certainty that we as a group know more about pre-war hockey than any other group of modern day commentators; we crossed that threshhold some time ago. A pluralistic, adversarial system is the best way of pruning the tree of knowledge, so to speak, and that is exactly what we have here. We have torn down so many bad arguments over the years that we can be reasonably confident in the quality of those that are still standing.

Hell, THN even admitted in 2007 that their original list was junk when it came to pre-expansion players. From today's perspective, it looks more like an embarassing bit of sensationalism than a serious attempt at hockey history. We should throw it in the rubbish bin and not look back.

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Old
04-11-2012, 12:40 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
2nd lines: - Advantage Toronto

Two very differen't center's in styles with Dionne and Larionov. One is all out offence all the time, the other is a cerebral two-way playmaker. I don't know enough about Gord Roberts to be honest with you, there isn't much info on him out there hopefully you can make a case for him LF - but Rick Martin was a stud goalscorer and is better than him in this capacity IMO. However, Dionne wastes Larionov in talent and Cashman is more effective than Robert, so I would say our top 6's are about equal overall.
Dionne vs Larianov

Won't spend much time on it since you don't want to contest it; Dionne's offensive power is just overwhelming in this matchup.

Robert vs Cashman

Both indeed here to do the same thing. Cashman has more peak offnese, but then Robert didn't quite play on the team Cashman here. But since you concede this one, I won't make much an argumenet.

Martin vs Roberts (added bio with great quotes)

All together a tough comparison. Roberts seems to me a bit grittier, but that doesn't make a noticeable difference in this matchup.

Offensively it's hard to compare given the differences in era. Both were superb goalscorer's in the day; Roberts finish numbers are prettier, but the PCHA and era factors can't be discounted. Besides his bio:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...#post31600448- PCHA offensive dominance gives a a bit more of a feel for Roberts 3 seasons in the PCHA.

I don't really have % figures for Roberts NHA, so I can't do a full comparison; but suffice to say he holds his own, and was dominant in his own right, even if he perhaps didn't quite reach Martin's level.

With the Dionne edge leading the way, I'll of course agree that 2nd lines are an advantage to me. I think that the edge on 2nd lines is larger than 1st lines- largely due to that Dionne factor.

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Old
04-11-2012, 07:46 PM
  #30
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Why the St.Pat's will struggle to score in this series:

-Vancouver has a least one defensive conscience on each line, and a very strong defensive group of forwards in the bottom 6. The top 4 on defence is also focused on keeping pucks out of their own net. Langway-Johnson and Foote are large framed horses that are going to be ridden by Mike Keenan until the bitter end. Oh, Vancouver also has one of the best goalies ever and a guy who tended to morph into a human wall in the playoffs.

Toronto's chances to crack Vancouver's defensive armour will be to catch Turnbull and Reinhart on a rare 5 on 5 shift with one of their top 2 lines on the ice (Keenan and Tortorella would probably split them up as the series goes along anyway). Or perhaps when the top lines are going head-to-head Schmidt and Larionov won't be able to do all the shadow work against the crafy Boucher and Dionne.

I expect my team to keep the the pace slow enough that Dryden can zone in and see everything.

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04-11-2012, 08:05 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
m_b, here is a Gord Roberts bio if you don't know anything about him:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=606



Thank you for saying this. I couldn't agree more.

During LCATD1 I was also working on the 2008 HOH top-100 project. It finished just in time for the playoffs and I used a lot of these rankings as arguments (our ATDs were still in their infancy, and in an imbalanced draft like this it is important if I have 8 top-100 players and my finals opponent has just 6, that is a massive difference. But it was mostly blown off as revisionist, stats-based crap and treated with a general "who do you think you are, acting like you know more than the THN panel!!!" attitude. Nearly 4 years later, having been a part of many more drafts and refining my methods of evaluation along with everyone else, I can easily say that history has absolved our list.
I think a lot of the list was laughable as well, but they did get get the top 25-30 right (for the time) save for the odd Henri Richard or what not being listed too high. Still, it's saying something that they listed Schmidt at #27 - all Im saying.

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Old
04-13-2012, 12:33 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Why the St.Pat's will struggle to score in this series:

-Vancouver has a least one defensive conscience on each line, and a very strong defensive group of forwards in the bottom 6. The top 4 on defence is also focused on keeping pucks out of their own net. Langway-Johnson and Foote are large framed horses that are going to be ridden by Mike Keenan until the bitter end. Oh, Vancouver also has one of the best goalies ever and a guy who tended to morph into a human wall in the playoffs.
Don't over-sell the defensive ability of your top-6. Having a defensive consience on that line does not at all mean they have any shutdown ability. You got good consiences, but the defensive ability of your top-6 isn't really better than mine.

I'll get into bottom-6s in more detail.

As far as your back-end, yah sure, plenty of defensive ability but a really questionable offense from that top-4. Their's a lack of puck moving on that top-4, and that's going to hurt your team's ability to get offense going- compared to my ace-in-the-hole, Ray Bourque, who can do that job excellently (and Bergman's got decent offense from the back-end for that second unit).

Belfour isn't exactly Brodeur, but he can compete well enough, and has a strong enough playoff record, that goaltending won't be at too much a disadvantage.

Quote:
Toronto's chances to crack Vancouver's defensive armour will be to catch Turnbull and Reinhart on a rare 5 on 5 shift with one of their top 2 lines on the ice (Keenan and Tortorella would probably split them up as the series goes along anyway). Or perhaps when the top lines are going head-to-head Schmidt and Larionov won't be able to do all the shadow work against the crafy Boucher and Dionne.
I'm not too concerned about matchups this series, outside of trying to give my top-6 as much time away from your top-pairing. The beauty of having a second line that isn't too far behind my first line offensively is that it's difficult to check against. Langway-Johnson is a great defensive top pair, but Hartsburg-Foote isn't nearly as frightening (not that they're a bad pair).

I expect my team to keep the the pace slow enough that Dryden can zone in and see everything.[/QUOTE]

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Old
04-14-2012, 12:55 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Don't over-sell the defensive ability of your top-6. Having a defensive consience on that line does not at all mean they have any shutdown ability. You got good consiences, but the defensive ability of your top-6 isn't really better than mine.

I'll get into bottom-6s in more detail.

As far as your back-end, yah sure, plenty of defensive ability but a really questionable offense from that top-4. Their's a lack of puck moving on that top-4, and that's going to hurt your team's ability to get offense going- compared to my ace-in-the-hole, Ray Bourque, who can do that job excellently (and Bergman's got decent offense from the back-end for that second unit).

Belfour isn't exactly Brodeur, but he can compete well enough, and has a strong enough playoff record, that goaltending won't be at too much a disadvantage.



I'm not too concerned about matchups this series, outside of trying to give my top-6 as much time away from your top-pairing. The beauty of having a second line that isn't too far behind my first line offensively is that it's difficult to check against. Langway-Johnson is a great defensive top pair, but Hartsburg-Foote isn't nearly as frightening (not that they're a bad pair).

I expect my team to keep the the pace slow enough that Dryden can zone in and see everything.
[/QUOTE]

I haven't oversold my top 6. I already said I'm in danger of getting scored on when our top lines are going head to head. But you in turn are overselling Belfour if you don't think there is much of a difference between him and Dryden. Come on.

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Old
04-16-2012, 05:31 PM
  #34
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Toronto wins in 5.

stars of the series:

Bourque
Dryden
Boucher
Dionne
Belfour

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