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The Toughness Debate Strikes Back

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Old
04-16-2012, 08:13 PM
  #26
llamateizer
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need more headshot, more blood, more cheapshot.

I like toughness, not headless toughness

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04-16-2012, 08:18 PM
  #27
Et le But
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If there's anything I'm learning about this playoffs is that we need more cheap shot artists.

The top teams in the east this year - Rags, Bruins, Pens, all know when in doubt, try to cause concussions.

But seriously, I don't get your point. The Habs need more "toughness", a debatable quality that there's 500000 topics on this board about. The Habs also need more of basically everything.

It's important to not get shocked. A team like the Caps is soft as butter, but so far has done a good job refusing to get sucked into the Bruins nonsense. On the flip side, Sens and Flyers have responded to attempted bullying by putting the opposing team in their place. But in all three cases toughness is complimented by structure. Trying to get the moral victory and "energy" has gotten the Pens only humiliation and disgrace.

Mostly though I agree with SouthernHab though, more and more these playoffs aren't a good example of anything but the NHL encouraging violence without repercussion. One thing I've always loved about fights in the playoffs is they are legitimate, not show fights between goons which are discouraged but legitimate fights that often turn to brawls. This time though it's being caused by cowardly attempts to cause head injuries. It's sickening to see players disrespect each other like that.


Last edited by Et le But: 04-16-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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04-16-2012, 08:28 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I think that it goes without saying that I have been a strong advocate for the Canadiens getting bigger, tougher and stronger since I joined here. Fighting is an essential part of hockey and the Martin era will be known for Montreal being one of the softest teams in the NHL that rarely stood up for their teammates.

With all of that said, this year's NHL playoffs are an abomination. Not the fighting part. I love watching a good non-staged, emotion driven scrap.

No, the abomination is the almost complete abandonment of the rule book. We are back to the clutch and grab and obstruct and hook and elbow hockey without penalties being called. The NHL is becoming a joke of a professional sport. NO OTHER sport throws the rule book out the window when playoffs begin. Strikes are still called strikes and outs are still outs in baseball. Football still follows the rules.

But not hockey. Bettman in his ignorance has cheapened the game. (The conspiracy believing part of my brain believes that this will enable his buddy Campbell's boy to win another no rules Stanley Cup by putting up the whistle.) And as a result, we have a free for all NHL playoffs this year.

The fights I dont mind. It is the blatant attempts to injure as a result of no rules is what is bad for this League. Teams are merely compensating for having no rules by gooning it up with cheap shots.

The NHL needs to keep the integrity of the game by calling penalties when penalties occur. (But the physicality and the fighting has been phenomenal)
This.

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04-16-2012, 08:33 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Trying to get the moral victory and "energy" has gotten the Pens only humiliation and disgrace.
I think most people here who have been calling for toughness just want us not to get bullied by teams who try to do what the Pens were doing yesterday. You know, so you don't have guys like Pyatt getting their faces pummelled with an elbow pad, while people around the league smile and say "Good Ole Fashioned Hockey Game".

You can't always prevent cheapshotting with fighting. But after you had your lunch money stolen from you, it's good to see someone stand up for you. Boosts morale. Being a bully may not be cool, but there is nothing wrong with standing up to one.

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04-16-2012, 08:38 PM
  #30
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I don't mind tough hockey but the antics pulled in the PIT-PHI series and in Game 2 of OTT-NYR are ridiculous, dumb and stupid.

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04-16-2012, 08:47 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
I think most people here who have been calling for toughness just want us not to get bullied by teams who try to do what the Pens were doing yesterday. You know, so you don't have guys like Pyatt getting their faces pummelled with an elbow pad, while people around the league smile and say "Good Ole Fashioned Hockey Game".

You can't always prevent cheapshotting with fighting. But after you had your lunch money stolen from you, it's good to see someone stand up for you. Boosts morale. Being a bully may not be cool, but there is nothing wrong with standing up to one.
Yeah, and I agree having bigger, physical players encourages the kind of team toughness that makes a team stand up to such bullying. But I think a lot of it also comes from coaching and team unity.

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04-16-2012, 08:49 PM
  #32
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You guys that hate the toughness - Are you watching the playoffs at all? Do you still feel that toughness and fighting have no role in today's game and/or in the playoffs? Just wondering.
Mr. Cherry, I just watched your segment on HNIC where you show-cased rockem sockem from some Nordiques-Habs and Bruins-Habs games from the 70s and 80s. Mr. Cherry, you are a dinosaur.

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04-16-2012, 08:54 PM
  #33
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Mr. Cherry, I just watched your segment on HNIC where you show-cased rockem sockem from some Nordiques-Habs and Bruins-Habs games from the 70s and 80s. Mr. Cherry, you are a dinosaur.
CBC ratings up 22 per cent; TSN ratings up 56 per cent; NBC ratings up 77 per cent...

Seems as though more people are tuning in than are tuning out. Dinosaurs back from the dead?

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04-16-2012, 08:55 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
You guys that hate the toughness - Are you watching the playoffs at all? Do you still feel that toughness and fighting have no role in today's game and/or in the playoffs? Just wondering.
To be fair, if they got rid of the worst rule in hockey (instigator), you wouldn't have half the cheap shots we've seen so far... The rats have invaded not only Florida, but the NHL.

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04-16-2012, 08:55 PM
  #35
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What is it with this board and people using a half-baked bastardization form of the world pacifist?

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04-16-2012, 08:58 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
To be fair, if they got rid of the worst rule in hockey (instigator), you wouldn't have half the cheap shots we've seen so far... The rats have invaded not only Florida, but the NHL.
this for sure

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04-16-2012, 09:02 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
I think most people here who have been calling for toughness just want us not to get bullied by teams who try to do what the Pens were doing yesterday. You know, so you don't have guys like Pyatt getting their faces pummelled with an elbow pad, while people around the league smile and say "Good Ole Fashioned Hockey Game".

You can't always prevent cheapshotting with fighting. But after you had your lunch money stolen from you, it's good to see someone stand up for you. Boosts morale. Being a bully may not be cool, but there is nothing wrong with standing up to one.
problem is, it seems to happen (the cheapshots) in every serie, with pretty much every team... and that obviously includes the "thougher ones"...

- Neal had no problems running players vs a tough opponent
- Hagelin had no problem either cheap shotting a player even though the Sens are the toughest team of the two by far
- and it's like that in every serie.

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04-16-2012, 09:04 PM
  #38
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Now how would Uncle Gary make it so that those expansion teams in markets that couldn't give a flying about hockey become competitive?

Loser points, check. Clutch and grab back in style, check. Cheap shot / concuss star players and level out that playing field, big check.

As stated, no other sport in NA has this aspect to it. Hell even in blowouts, if you are offside or commit PI in football it gets called. Illegal motion gets called. You walk when you are down ten runs, the ump doesn't suddenly strike you out.

They've got what they wanted. They have a league that has Crosby missing most of the year while Letang, Orpik and Cooke spear and knee and elbow their way to the playoffs. They have Toews and Sedin and Savard and Alfredsson all out while Neal and Weber and Sobotka and Hagelin crack heads with impunity. They had the Bruins winning it all last year with a mediocre team of thuggish play and the most egregious conflict of interest staining the whole season in the Campbells.

This years playoffs are out for me. Pathetic display by the league. Not a sport at this point.

I don't like basketball but better to let your superstars get away with the odd travel than have a bunch of plugs scrapping their way through things.

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04-16-2012, 09:05 PM
  #39
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I can do without the Asham cross check and the Hagelin elbow, but I think these playoffs have been great. I can't turn the TV off.

Physical, gritty, nasty...this is what hockey was in the glory days and the kind of hockey I remember as a kid in the 80s.

I can't believe that anyone prefers the wussified version of hockey that we see during the regular season.

I don't want to see guys getting hurt due to cheap shots, but skirmishes after the whistle and constant physicality along with the refs letting them actually play without a power play every 5 minutes is great.

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04-16-2012, 09:07 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
I can do without the Asham cross check and the Hagelin elbow, but I think these playoffs have been great. I can't turn the TV off.

Physical, gritty, nasty...this is what hockey was in the glory days and the kind of hockey I remember as a kid in the 80s.

I can't believe that anyone prefers the wussified version of hockey that we see during the regular season.

I don't want to see guys getting hurt due to cheap shots, but skirmishes after the whistle and constant physicality along with the refs letting them actually play without a power play every 5 minutes is great.
Exactly.

The shame is that the refs are letting some very questionable antics slide (Neal's non sense on Couturier) that have resulted in escalations.

Other than that, this is how hockey is meant to be played.

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04-16-2012, 09:07 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
problem is, it seems to happen (the cheapshots) in every serie, with pretty much every team... and that obviously includes the "thougher ones"...

- Neal had no problems running players vs a tough opponent
- Hagelin had no problem either cheap shotting a player even though the Sens are the toughest team of the two by far
- and it's like that in every serie.
I said just as much. But after you have had your lunch money stolen, it is good to see someone has your back. No one can prevent all cheapshots. It doesn't even take a tough guy to make a cheap shot. But if a team gets away with that crap on you all game, you lose morale. Ottawa wanted it. They needed something. They had to try to stand up to the bully and say, you can bully us, but we ain't rolling over. MacLean said "Go ahead". He gave the sens that. And you see a team playing like a team.


Last edited by andy28: 04-16-2012 at 09:13 PM.
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04-16-2012, 09:11 PM
  #42
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What about the Rangers - Senators game tonight? Amazing hockey. High pace, intense, physical hockey without any stupid punches, elbows or fights!

This is playoffs hockey.

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04-16-2012, 09:11 PM
  #43
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the goon shows in the first cpl games of the playoffs were great but judging by tonite things have settled down.cant play that way all the time and expect to win.

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04-16-2012, 09:12 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Mr. Cherry, I just watched your segment on HNIC where you show-cased rockem sockem from some Nordiques-Habs and Bruins-Habs games from the 70s and 80s. Mr. Cherry, you are a dinosaur.
Glory days of the NHL, and I wasn't even old enough to truely appreciate them.

You must be a member of the Jacques Martin fan club.

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04-16-2012, 09:12 PM
  #45
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Exactly.

The shame is that the refs are letting some very questionable antics slide (Neal's non sense on Couturier) that have resulted in escalations.

Other than that, this is how hockey is meant to be played.
Don't get me wrong I love the tough stuff. The Habs were very, very tough in the 70's when we slaughtered Philly; very tough again under Burns and Demers. I have always been a big advocate of tougher teams. One of the things that rankled me for years was how the Habs let opponents skate into our goalies' grills while we turned away.

It is wondering each time a superior player steps on the ice if it is concussion time. Then seeing it happen repeatedly. Then seeing WWF Barnyard Brawl Pitt-Philly BS. Elbows up, whistles down, everyone wins!

Seriously why can't they have both? Maybe that instigator rule...

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04-16-2012, 09:12 PM
  #46
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We need better players more than anything, with some grit if possible.

But guys like Staubitz are useless.

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04-16-2012, 09:13 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
I can do without the Asham cross check and the Hagelin elbow, but I think these playoffs have been great. I can't turn the TV off.

Physical, gritty, nasty...this is what hockey was in the glory days and the kind of hockey I remember as a kid in the 80s.

I can't believe that anyone prefers the wussified version of hockey that we see during the regular season.

I don't want to see guys getting hurt due to cheap shots, but skirmishes after the whistle and constant physicality along with the refs letting them actually play without a power play every 5 minutes is great.
think "anyone" would pick the sissy-Brown hit on Sedin over the Neale, Carkner, Hagelin, Weber, etc tough act

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04-16-2012, 09:16 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
To be fair, if they got rid of the worst rule in hockey (instigator), you wouldn't have half the cheap shots we've seen so far... The rats have invaded not only Florida, but the NHL.
Bingo.

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04-16-2012, 09:18 PM
  #49
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We need better players more than anything, with some grit if possible.

But guys like Staubitz are useless.
Guys like Staubitz serve a purpose.

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Old
04-16-2012, 09:19 PM
  #50
andy28
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We need better players more than anything, with some grit if possible.

But guys like Staubitz are useless.
Maybe so, but I would take a guy like Neal. Konopka rocks on face-offs.

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